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Old 08-24-2004, 06:55 PM   #1
Si2WRX
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
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309 hp on 93 + W/I
on Dyno Dynamics

Question So I've been experimenting Utec vs ECU timing control...

After a few days of running around like this, I've found some interesting info.

First, a Utec log of 4th gear from my tuned map:
Code:
 3787  -5.7 2.7  35  00    00   W/B  +36.6   16.0 ECU.   -7.0    .00 2.7  13.59
 3800  -3.6 2.9  87  10    00   W/B  +35.1    7.0 ECU.  -10.2    .00 2.7  13.14
 3813  -1.0 3.0 102  20    00   W/B  +33.3   22.0 ECU.  -10.6    .00 2.8  13.09
 3813  +1.1 3.2 102  30    00   W/B  +31.5   24.0 ECU.  -10.8    .00 2.8  12.53
 3849  +3.1 3.3 102  30    00   W/B  +30.8   25.0 ECU.  -10.8    .00 3.0  11.89
 3903  +5.1 3.4 102  40    00   W/B  +29.7   28.0 ECU.  -11.0   8.00 3.0  11.68
 3940  +7.4 3.5 101  60    00   W/B  +27.6   31.0 +27.3 -11.0  48.00 3.2  11.53
 3992  +9.6 3.6 101  70    00   W/B  +24.3   34.0 +25.0 -10.9  57.20 3.3  11.45
 4050 +11.7 3.7 101  70    00   W/B  +21.5   39.0 +25.0 -10.9  59.80 3.3  11.37
 4045 +13.9 3.8 101  80    00   W/B  +19.2   46.0 +21.6 -11.5  64.20 3.5  11.42
 4135 +15.8 3.6 102  90    00   W/B  +21.2   39.0 +18.8 -12.8  67.00 3.3  11.34
 4177 +17.6 4.1 102 100    00   W/B  +18.2   49.0 +17.2 -12.8  71.00 3.4  11.43
 4235 +19.4 3.6 102 100    00   W/B  +20.4   39.0 +17.1 -12.6  71.00 3.5  11.87
 4334 +20.3 4.0 102 100    00   W/B  +17.4   47.0 +16.7 -12.6  71.00 3.3  12.21
 4432 +20.5 4.1 102 100    00   W/B  +17.7   45.0 +16.6 -12.6  71.00 3.6  12.18
 4535 +21.1 3.7 101 100    00   W/B  +19.1   45.0 +16.2 -12.6  71.00 3.3  11.98
 4510 +20.5 4.1 102 100    00   W/B  +18.2   51.0 +16.1 -12.6  71.00 3.5  11.80
 4516 +20.3 3.9 101 100    00   W/B  +19.0   46.0 +16.3 -12.6  71.00 3.6  11.76
 4655 +19.6 4.1 101 100    00   W/B  +18.3   52.0 +16.9 -12.6  71.00 3.4  11.84
 4616 +19.2 4.1 102  90    00   W/B  +19.3   53.0 +17.0 -12.5  67.00 3.5  11.80
 4789 +19.8 4.0 101 100    00   W/B  +19.3   53.0 +17.0 -12.6  71.00 3.5  11.62
 4880 +20.3 4.0 101 100    00   W/B  +19.3   54.0 +17.0 -12.7  71.00 3.5  11.56
 4960 +21.1 4.0 101 100    00   W/B  +21.0   54.0 +17.0 -12.8  75.00 3.6  11.49
 5159 +21.3 4.1 101 100    00   W/B  +20.9   57.0 +16.9 -12.8  75.00 3.6  11.49
 5058 +20.9 4.1 101 100    00   W/B  +20.9   58.0 +16.9 -12.9  75.00 3.6  11.58
 5136 +20.3 4.2 101 100    00   W/B  +21.3   59.0 +16.8 -13.0  75.00 3.6  11.61
 5200 +19.8 4.2 101 100    00   W/B  +22.9   60.0 +16.8 -13.0  75.00 3.6  11.56
 5175 +20.0 4.2 101 100    00   W/B  +22.9   61.0 +16.6 -13.0  75.00 3.6  11.52
 5299 +19.4 4.2 102 100    00   W/B  +23.9   60.0 +16.5 -13.2  75.00 3.7  11.53
 5411 +19.4 4.2 101 100    00   W/B  +24.3   60.0 +16.5 -13.2  83.00 3.7  11.58
 5376 +19.6 4.2 101 100    00   W/B  +23.8   62.0 +16.5 -13.2  83.00 3.7  11.62
 5376 +20.0 4.3 102 100    00   W/B  +23.8   62.0 +16.5 -13.2  83.00 3.7  11.65
 5491 +20.3 4.3 103 100    00   W/B  +24.6   62.0 +16.5 -13.2  83.00 3.7  11.65
 5546 +20.5 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +24.0   63.0 +16.6 -13.2  88.00 3.7  11.68
 5817 +21.3 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +24.1   64.0 +17.0 -13.2  88.00 3.7  11.73
 5707 +20.7 4.3 102 100    00   W/B  +24.8   65.0 +16.7 -13.2  90.00 3.8  11.68
 5717 +21.1 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +25.2   65.0 +17.0 -13.2  88.00 3.7  11.58
 5777 +21.3 4.3 102 100    00   W/B  +25.3   66.0 +17.0 -13.2  90.00 3.7  11.56
 5837 +20.7 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +25.6   66.0 +17.0 -13.2  90.00 3.7  11.49
 5727 +20.9 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +25.8   67.0 +17.0 -13.1  90.00 3.7  11.48
 5920 +20.7 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +26.1   68.0 +17.0 -13.2  90.00 3.8  11.45
 6049 +20.9 4.3 102 100    00   W/B  +26.0   68.0 +17.0 -13.2  90.00 3.8  11.42
 6138 +20.7 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +26.4   67.0 +17.0 -13.1  90.00 3.8  11.42
 6195 +20.3 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +26.7   69.0 +17.0 -13.1  90.00 3.8  11.43
 6105 +20.5 4.4 102 100    00   W/B  +27.6   69.0 +17.0 -13.0  90.00 3.8  11.42
 6218 +20.3 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +27.6   69.0 +17.1 -12.9  92.00 3.8  11.33
 6116 +20.7 4.4 101 100    00   W/B  +28.8   70.0 +17.0 -12.9  92.00 3.8  11.28
 6447 +21.3 4.4 101 100    00   W/B  +28.8   70.0 +17.0 -12.9  92.00 3.8  11.33
 5952 +18.8 3.4   0  00    00   W/B   +8.5   28.0 ECU.   -6.9  86.40 2.5  11.27
 5757 +11.1 2.9   0  00    00   W/B  +10.7   28.0 ECU.   -7.0  15.00 1.4  11.56
My car is an '02 with lots of work in it. Mods that pertain to this post... 850cc inj (see the duty cycle), Perrin BigMaf, alcohol injection (driven by Utec, see the BCL column). ECU has not been reflashed.

The timing advance shown above where Utec is in control is as much as I could get in knock free. Bounces around only 17 degrees. This is actually at 22+ psi although the Utec log doesn't indicate that much boost (had it in absolute mode).

This map is what put down my recent dyno numbers.

Take a look at the ECU timing. The ECU is happy and wants to run more advance that I can. So I thought...

And here's a log from an ECU controlled 4th gear pull:
Code:
 4240  -1.1 3.0  33  00    00   W/B  +32.6   19.0 ECU.   -7.0    .00 2.9  12.74
 4306  +0.9 3.2  41  00    00   W/B  +29.5  ---.- ECU.   -7.0    .00 3.1  13.53
 4290  +2.8 3.5  73  30    00   W/B  +27.4   34.0 ECU.  -10.6  11.80 3.1  13.87
 4380  +5.2 3.6 102  40    00   W/B  +24.5   40.0 ECU.  -10.0  23.60 3.3  12.93
 4351  +8.9 3.8 102  60    00   W/B  +17.2   50.0 ECU.  -10.2  37.70 3.4  11.28
 4426 +12.8 4.0 101  80    00   W/B  +17.0   54.0 ECU.  -11.1  53.40 3.6  10.14
 4553 +16.0 3.7 102  90    00   W/B  +18.7   47.0 ECU.  -12.2  59.00 3.3   9.84
 4681 +17.7 4.1 102  90    00   W/B  +17.5   51.0 ECU.  -12.5  67.20 3.4  10.12
 4535 +19.1 3.8 101  90    00   W/B  +18.6   47.0 ECU.  -12.4  68.00 3.5  10.68
 4681 +18.9 4.0 101  90    00   W/B  +17.8   52.0 ECU.  -12.5  68.00 3.4  10.95
 4610 +19.1 3.9 102  90    00   W/B  +19.6   49.0 ECU.  -12.9  80.00 3.5  10.96
 4782 +19.9 4.0 102  90    00   W/B  +18.9   51.0 ECU.  -12.9  80.00 3.4  11.01
 4844 +20.5 3.9 102 100    00   W/B  +20.5   51.0 ECU.  -12.6  80.00 3.4  11.02
 5073 +21.1 4.0 103 100    00   W/B  +20.4   52.0 ECU.  -12.7  80.00 3.4  11.01
 4938 +21.3 4.0 102  90    00   W/B  +21.4   52.0 ECU.  -12.9  80.00 3.5  11.05
 5058 +21.1 4.0 102  90    00   W/B  +23.2   53.0 ECU.  -12.9  80.00 3.5  11.14
 5020 +20.3 4.1 102  90    00   W/B  +24.3   54.0 ECU.  -13.0  86.00 3.5  11.23
 5257 +20.7 4.1 101 100    00   W/B  +23.7   55.0 ECU.  -13.1  86.00 3.6  11.27
 5299 +20.5 4.1 101 100    00   W/B  +24.7   55.0 ECU.  -13.1  86.00 3.6  11.34
 5265 +21.1 4.1 102 100    00   W/B  +24.6   54.0 ECU.  -13.2  86.00 3.6  11.42
 5376 +21.7 4.1 102 100    00   W/B  +25.1   55.0 ECU.  -13.2  89.00 3.6  11.49
 5402 +21.1 4.2 103 100    00   W/B  +25.4   55.0 ECU.  -13.3  89.00 3.6  11.68
 5428 +22.0 4.2 102 100    00   W/B  +25.4   56.0 ECU.  -13.3  89.00 3.6  11.81
 5500 +21.5 4.2 102 100    00   W/B  +25.7   57.0 ECU.  -13.2  95.00 3.6  11.81
 5621 +21.7 4.2 102 100    00   W/B  +25.7   57.0 +22.8 -13.1  95.00 3.6  11.84
 5640 +22.2 4.2 102 100    00   W/B  +25.2   58.0 +22.9 -13.1  95.00 3.6  11.84
 5688 +21.5 4.2 102 100    00   W/B  +25.5   58.0 +22.9 -13.0  98.00 3.7  11.84
 5767 +21.7 4.2 101 100    00   W/B  +25.8   59.0 +22.9 -13.0  98.00 3.7  11.87
 5889 +21.7 4.2 102 100    00   W/B  +25.8   60.0 +23.0 -13.0  98.00 3.7  11.84
 5797 +20.9 4.2 102 100    00   W/B  +25.8   60.0 +23.0 -13.0  98.00 3.7  11.77
 5858 +21.5 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +25.9   61.0 +23.0 -13.0  98.00 3.7  11.76
 5858 +21.8 4.3 102 100    00   W/B  +26.5   62.0 +23.0 -13.0 100.00 3.7  11.68
 6049 +22.0 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +26.9   62.0 +23.0 -13.0 100.00 3.7  11.58
 6049 +21.7 4.3 101 100    00   W/B  +27.3   62.0 +23.0 -13.0 100.00 3.7  11.56
 6138 +20.9 4.3 102  90    00   W/B  +27.2   62.0 +22.9 -13.0 100.00 3.7  11.53
 6195 +20.9 4.3  94 100    00   W/B  +28.1   62.0 +22.8 -13.0 100.00 3.7  11.56
 5963 +16.9 2.5   0  00    00   W/B  +10.7   28.0 ECU.   -7.0  77.60 1.9  11.58
Boost was between 21-22psi. I put the Utec in control of timing at 5500rpm because the ECU just goes stupid with it above that. The timing values I chose were close to what would transition smoothly in 3rd gear. In 4th, the ECU actually wants to run more advance. The transition down to ~23 from 25 isn't too noticeable.

The car feels wonderful like this and I'm curious to see if daily drivability remains as good as it was today. I can comment that the car drives very smooth. Since there is no transition from ECU to Utec timing control (until 5500 which is too high to notice) the car just goes when I stab the throttle regardless of gear or rpm. It seems to run just the right amount of advance all the time. Everything looks great in Delta Dash (knock correction, multiplier). It appears that the ECU has enough authority to fine tune the ignition curve... at least on my setup.

I don't care how well tuned a Utec map is... no matter how much I mess with it, the map is only optimal for pretty much one gear only. And is generally not optimal for other gears.

A/F ratio looks great when using alcohol injection

Erik
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Last edited by Si2WRX; 08-24-2004 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 08-24-2004, 07:10 PM   #2
Ravenous
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very intresting
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Old 08-24-2004, 07:53 PM   #3
x99percent
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Remember: you have large injectors, so you're sending a false MAF reading to the stock ECU.

OF COURSE the stock ECU wants to run more timing.. it thinks the car is under a lot less load than it really is. The ECU timing is OK for cruising, but not for WOT runs.
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Old 08-24-2004, 08:39 PM   #4
ride5000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x99percent
Remember: you have large injectors, so you're sending a false MAF reading to the stock ECU.
which is also partially cancelled out by the big maf tube...

Quote:
The ECU timing is OK for cruising, but not for WOT runs.
i think his point was the ecu timing is ok for lower rpm ranges, regardless of throttle. actually, the ecu timing is more than ok, it's flat out better. at least, that's what i got from the logs. it's not like the knock sensor is turned off.

it will be interesting to see how much better (stable and/or more advanced) the timing control is before you see the utec pick up some racket.

ken
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Old 08-24-2004, 09:44 PM   #5
Si2WRX
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I wouldn't be running the ECU ign control if it was detonating.

It's clear and that's what's odd. I can't hear anything on the Tuner and the Utec isn't hearing anything either. Nothing but positive knock correction showing via Delta Dash.

Almost like the car really likes the extra advance.

The MAF signal is manipulated... but the ECU would still have learned knock correction, no?

*EDIT* I neglected to mention in the first post that I added 2 degrees retard to the ECU via Delta Dash. However I'm not sure if this did anything when comparing the two logs which were taken more than a week apart (first one didn't have that retard).

Last edited by Si2WRX; 08-25-2004 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 08-25-2004, 09:49 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
which is also partially cancelled out by the big maf tube...
Just a side note, the bigmaf just reduced the amount of change in the UTEC map - for the same end tune with or without the bigmaf, the ECU is still offsetting the timing the same.

without the bigmaf, the utec pulls a lot of maf voltage, and the ecu runs high timing.
With the bigmaf, the maf doesn't putout a lot of voltage and the UTEC just adjusts a little bit.
In the end, the ECU sees the same MAF signal and wants to run high timing.

Tom
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Old 08-25-2004, 01:26 PM   #7
ride5000
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i see what you mean tom. it makes sense, and i agree with you.

ken
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