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Old 09-10-2004, 03:58 PM   #1
RoadRash
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Default My Opinions on Praxis and SCC

I previously posted this as a response to an existing thread, but am still hearing a reading negative comments about what I believe to be a great suspension, so I decided to put it in a new thread......

I canít believe what Iím reading in all these comments about the Praxis suspension. Everyone seems to be slamming it without even experiencing it for themselves. That just goes to show how ignorant most people are, taking otherís opinions as fact. Personally, I donít think SCC knows what theyíre doing, hence the reason I no longer have a subscription. One problem with the SCC STI is that they strayed from Praxis recommendations; didn't use their alignment specs., changed some of the parts out when all the parts were designed by Praxis to work as a whole, and suddenly itís Praxisí fault.
I happen to have a Praxis equipped í02 WRX. I installed it as recommended and it rocks. Iíve never had any mechanical issues. I do agree with SCC about the ride. It's not the greatest... IN TRACK MODE!!! But touring is great ...hmmm could this be the point of the whole thing? Good ride/bad performance -> Bad ride/good performance... This setups given me a car I can kick a$$ with at the track, and not pis@ off my girlfriend on the weekends.
Point is. Try it your dam# self, make your own judgement, return it if you don't like it.
Best money I spent!



RR
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Old 09-10-2004, 04:19 PM   #2
jblaine
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I don't have them, but right on as far as "Try it your dam# self, make your own judgement, return it if you don't like it."

IMO, SCC and the like are garbage.
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Old 09-11-2004, 04:38 AM   #3
ScoobyB
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RoadRash,

You have an excellent point.

Here is a bit of type for thought, let me know if you agree.

95% of all posters are regurgitators,
05% of all posters are inspirational, intelligent and helpful.

The trick is to know the difference

Also, what bothers me about SCC comments is that too many people only want to know what the "one" ultimate setup is, (the 95% crowd?). They don't/can't think about actually understanding the idea of a "work in progress". I like the fact that SCC tries different parts and brands, and then tells you what they think about them improving or not improving the car.

I cannot fathom the idea of not wrenching on any of my cars/motorcycles myself, but I understand this is not always possible with others. However, they need to understand that the "one" setup would not exist, if someone wasn't inspirational in the first place.

Rant mode off... (ducking for cover, flame away you all 95%ers )
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Old 09-12-2004, 09:01 PM   #4
ava8r
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I have the Praxis on my 05 STI (had to modify (fab new ones) the front shock mounts to fit the 05). I also have the 23mm front/rear swaybars and adjustable endlinks.

I bought the system after I read the Sport compact car review, which was clearly bull. I knew the system had potentials and I was right.

I do track days with it and drive the kids to school during the week. The system works.

I was in Thunderhill sep 1st and will be there again this tuesday with the Lotus club. If anyone is interested in the track/street ability of this system, come-on-down,.

You guys saw what the SCC did to a perfect blue paint?, dontbelivable. These guys are a little nutty.

Later,
AJ
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Old 09-12-2004, 09:36 PM   #5
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Having experienced the praxis suspension briefly i was unimpressed.

the performance was not up to the price in any way, and in every setting the car seemed to "wallow" just like every other car i've ever seen with air ride.

Road Rash - i see you live in Ohio - I invite you to come up to waterford/grattan/gingerman, or i'll come down to beaver run/mid ohio and you can prove me wrong.

If comfort and performance are really that important to you, for the price of the praxis system I bought Tein type RE dampers and a beater. i drive in comfort every day and have blistering performance at the track. Not to mention i saved weight in my "performance" car instead of adding it. the WRX is already pretty heavy, i cant imagine adding the weight involved in the praxis system.
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Old 09-12-2004, 10:24 PM   #6
robmarch
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I think they should have taken it more seriously when they saw that their ride height was 2 inches higher than expected. hard to get a good ride/handling compromise that way.
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Old 09-13-2004, 08:38 AM   #7
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I had a chance to take a ride in a praxis equipped car this past weekend.

It was ok...but for the cost of the system versus what you get is a little much. 3400 PLUS installation that was pretty involved if you don't do it yourself. It cannot be light...with the tank and compressor and all the other crap its gotta add up.

As for the SCC car....incorrectly installed suspension plus rims that were COMPLETELY WRONG for the damn car leads to handling like crap. Not really a shocker.
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Old 09-13-2004, 03:30 PM   #8
Coati
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Aren't SCC the same folks who thought the SPT suspension was harsher than coilovers on their WRX.
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Old 09-13-2004, 10:18 PM   #9
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http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ed...311scc_techno/

You know, there are at least a couple people there who have their heads screwed on straight. He's spot on with his analysis, and their highlighting of how the car has the tendency to want to level itself on uneven surfaces was enough to turn me off to the idea of air suspension as well.

Personally, I can't wait until tein releases this setup here:

http://www.tein.co.jp/hybdampe.html
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:26 AM   #10
Uncle Scotty
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SCC = lame.

Full stop.
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Old 09-14-2004, 01:16 AM   #11
red5001
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I have talked with a few of the engineers at praxis and from what I heard and saw they did there homework on the system.
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Old 09-14-2004, 02:03 AM   #12
Mark Avery
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>Aren't SCC the same folks who thought the SPT suspension was
>harsher than coilovers on their WRX.

They changed the SPT kit for DMS Golds, which are not harsh.
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Old 09-14-2004, 02:26 AM   #13
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Hah. Wait until they drive on the DMS's for a little while...they'll be singing a different tune. EVERYONE I know of with DMS's have had serious problems with them within too short of an amount of time.
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Old 09-14-2004, 04:18 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBiggly
Hah. Wait until they drive on the DMS's for a little while...they'll be singing a different tune. EVERYONE I know of with DMS's have had serious problems with them within too short of an amount of time.
That DMS boat came and went rather quickly. Imo, SCC are idiots and anyone who believes them, well I got some lilttle blue pills for you.
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Old 09-14-2004, 09:34 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safir
Road Rash - i see you live in Ohio - I invite you to come up to waterford/grattan/gingerman, or i'll come down to beaver run/mid ohio and you can prove me wrong.
check out this thread if you are serious
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Old 09-14-2004, 10:07 AM   #16
Safir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke@tirerack
Unfortunately I will be at Grattan with WMR PCA that day, otherwise i would make the trip down.

I would like to see/experience a back to back comaprison between a stock WRX and a praxis equipped car, and in the spirit of a true comparison I'd like to see it back to back with my RS and/or a WRX with a cusco, tein, or JIC setup
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Old 09-14-2004, 11:16 AM   #17
DrBiggly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesmokingman
That DMS boat came and went rather quickly. Imo, SCC are idiots and anyone who believes them, well I got some lilttle blue pills for you.
Viagra?
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:17 PM   #18
BryanH
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thesmokingman
That DMS boat came and went rather quickly. Imo, SCC are idiots and anyone who believes them, well I got some lilttle blue pills for you.
Are you saying that Viagra doesn't work?
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Old 09-16-2004, 03:21 PM   #19
jjumpingjimmy
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I agree with road rash I have a system and love it. If you have not tried it ; I see they are hosting a driving event around Pittsburgh sign up and check it out for yourself. If you try it out and it does not work as they say it does come back to the site and bash away. I can't believe all the bashing of a product over an artical in a crap magazine. The only good use for a SCC mag is they make good slip plates for under tires when you are aligning a suspension. I keep a few around for just such use in my garage.
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Old 09-16-2004, 05:39 PM   #20
mike@praxis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjumpingjimmy
The only good use for a SCC mag is they make good slip plates for under tires when you are aligning a suspension. I keep a few around for just such use in my garage.
Funny that is the same thing we use them for here. They make great slip plates when programming the ride heights on a Praxis system.
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Old 09-17-2004, 10:30 AM   #21
Luke@tirerack
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some of the guys there are seriosly jaded and there are some that really know there stuff .... but, the guys that are really knowledgable are into ECU tuning and forced induction upgrades and ignore everything else
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Old 09-17-2004, 08:17 PM   #22
SCC STi
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Default SCC replies

Too bad you guys couldn't have been here when we spent 24 hours over the course of the eight months we had Praxis aligning and realigning the car to the Praxis' specs for ride heights, camber and toe. RoadRash, you're simply wrong on this accusation.

Perhaps you missed this sentence in the review: "Properly set up, with with an alignment that gives you zero toe at both ends, 2.5 degrees of camber in the front and about 1.1 degrees in the back, our combination of Praxis suspension with Hotchkis front and rear adjustable bars and adjustable rear lateral links works brilliantly." I personally drove the car several hundred miles at nine tenths and had lots of fun. But, in our opinion, it never made any kind of performance gains that justified the ride quality, cost and complexity of setup it demanded.

Yes, we initially used Hotchkis camber plates in the front which replace the stock upper mounts. When we realized the problems this caused, we fixed it. Still, the ride quality was unlivable in anything except tall mode (and that's saying something coming from this crowd). The only other parts on the car at that time were Hotchkis bars and adjustable lateral links in the rear. The links increase harshness but certainly don't affect spring rate, damping or ride height, which ultimately yielded the poor ride quality. Additionally on pages 173 and 174 of the July '04 issue, we said that "You need to set the ride heights exactly as the instructions say or the spring rates and damping will be mismatched and the car will feel like crap." We also said, " Don't get any ideas about changing the ride height calibration to improve the stance either." Ultimately, huge efforts were made to be certain the Praxis recommended settings were followed to exacting detail before any evaluation was made.

It's a shame some of you find it necessary to accuse us of being idiots. Perhaps that's because we're the only book that actually gives legitimate suspension reviews with before and after testing. That's the problem with producing real results. You're gonna piss someone off once in a while. I'd rather do that than wallow in the mediocrity of never offering any results, advice or solutions. That said, our opinion is exactly that, an opinion. If you're happy with Praxis, great. You won't catch us arguing.

I agree with ava8r. The flat black thing is getting a little out of control. And yes, we're certainly a little nutty.

Josh
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Old 09-19-2004, 10:57 AM   #23
BryanH
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I just wanna know what set of rims are coming next to fix that part of the equation? I only bring this up because I actually got to playing around yesterday and swapped out my +52 offset rims for something with a low 40's offset. I pretty much scared the crap outta myself because the thing was all over the place on braking. Turn in was also abysmal...but once it took a set things were fun. I am much happier with my P1's on.

And when can we get a little more on the suspension you replaced the Praxis with? That is a little more in my price range and something I am considering.
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Old 09-19-2004, 07:23 PM   #24
Arnie
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Hey Josh -Thanks for coming on this thread and participating.

I have yet to ride in a Praxis equiped car. I was wondering though if the airbag produce a progressive spring rate or is the air somehow displaced to provide more of a linear spring rate? Or does the airbag, per se, create an inconsistent spring rate? It would seem to me that a spring is a spring whether it be air or steel as long as it has consistent compression and rebound properties. Now the damping, that's a different issue entirely. I would a imagine a decently valved system would allow you to tune the ride properly. In regards to Safir's comments about the car wallowing, couldn't this just be and issue of not setting dampers up properly to the reduced or increased spring rate at different ride heights?

The theory of the Praxis system sounds pretty good still, regardless of people's low rider associations! I'm just wondering if the valving in the dampers is more at issue rather than the ride height adjustable air bag spring?
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