Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday August 29, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Normally Aspirated Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-15-2009, 11:01 PM   #251
N/Aontherun
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 226976
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA, USA
Vehicle:
98 Legacy 2.5GT
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ballitch View Post
That combo will get you a 10.8:1 CR. Here is a thread you can read also, about pistons popping out of holes and whatnot.



~Josh~
Thanks for the link there. Damn, peeping tom piston, robing compression at every EJ25D near you


Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Did you break your stock heads? DOHC Ej25D heads are far superior to Ej22E heads.
My heads are fine, but I can't do cams on them. 400 bux over 200 for cams on the EJ22 heads, plus I'll raise the compression by using the EJ22 heads. I know you said more then once the the power is from the displacement and not the compression.
I know that the flow of the EJ25 heads are 20% +/- superior then the EJ22, but that's where I was hoping the PnP would match things up, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't mind being wrong because I get to learn from it

How much more would Delta valves raise the compression?(hope they don't have more then one type)

If I were to shave the EJ22 head, how much can I shave off and not worry bout the peeking tom piston hitting the valve?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
N/Aontherun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2009, 11:25 PM   #252
Matt Monson
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 832
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Teh Ghetto Garage, CO
Vehicle:
99 2.5RS, '85 911
'73 914 and 2012 BRZ

Default

If you are doing the port work yourself and you are doing this in large part as an exercise in expanding your knowledge and experience, I say why not go for it. But if you are having to pay for the port work, then you would be better off putting that money into the cams. I think you're going to be hard pressed to get 20% more flow out of the ej22 heads. But I've been proven wrong before.

Nothing like someone saying "show me" to inspire someone to go do something interesting. So, show me.
Matt Monson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2009, 11:53 PM   #253
N/Aontherun
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 226976
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA, USA
Vehicle:
98 Legacy 2.5GT
Black

Default

yea def. a learning experience this thing will be specially tearing into the EJ25D and putting her back together.

Porting will be done by me or a friend.

We shall see what this things got to give us
N/Aontherun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2009, 12:33 AM   #254
sebatsi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 161121
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Burbs, IL
Vehicle:
1997 OBS
Green

Default

<--- went through the whole thread, researched and final question:

MY97 OBS that has EJ22 Phase I single ports (solid lifters) which block am I better off with? Car is only for autox, rallyx not a DD, trying to stay cheap but safe/reliable at the same time. Would it be Phase I or II EJ25 or sti block.
I'm looking to keep my pistons/rods inside the block
sebatsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2009, 10:13 AM   #255
Charlie-III
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 30669
Join Date: Dec 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: 07456, North NJ
Vehicle:
1998 Legacy 2.5GT
Silver Sleeper Wagon

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebatsi View Post
<--- went through the whole thread, researched and final question:

MY97 OBS that has EJ22 Phase I single ports (solid lifters) which block am I better off with? Car is only for autox, rallyx not a DD, trying to stay cheap but safe/reliable at the same time. Would it be Phase I or II EJ25 or sti block.
I'm looking to keep my pistons/rods inside the block
My first choice (based on price) would be the phase-II EJ25 since you can reuse the pistons.
My second choice would be the STi SB, but since stock it's set of for a turbo, you would really need to replace the pistons to get back to decent NA numbers.

I did choice 2, but I am keeping the option open to go FI down the road later if I so choose. This is why I wanted a turbo block as a bottom end.
Charlie-III is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2009, 12:38 PM   #256
Qman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 964
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Bonney Lake, Wash. USA
Vehicle:
'95 work in
progress

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostdScubaru View Post
get as close to 13:1 compression as possible..
That way you'll never have a chance to afford fuel for the thing...
Qman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2009, 05:33 PM   #257
sebatsi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 161121
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Burbs, IL
Vehicle:
1997 OBS
Green

Default

That was my original idea Phase II block or sti SB, this will be my first extensive subie engine work (ex DSM owner), I wanted a bit more kick and when my driving skills deserve more power I will be considering something more spicy, Thank you for your advice.
<--- hunting for EJ25D
sebatsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2009, 12:05 AM   #258
Kevin Thomas
Street Racing Instructor
Moderator
 
Member#: 110
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 1997 OBS, 1996 SVX, 1988 RX
Vehicle:
1989 1989 XT6

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebatsi View Post
<--- went through the whole thread, researched and final question:

MY97 OBS that has EJ22 Phase I single ports (solid lifters) which block am I better off with? Car is only for autox, rallyx not a DD, trying to stay cheap but safe/reliable at the same time. Would it be Phase I or II EJ25 or sti block.
I'm looking to keep my pistons/rods inside the block
What would happen to the EJ22 Phase I single port block if you stayed with it? Do they have the potential to fail/break easier than the Phase I or II EJ25 engines?
Kevin Thomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2009, 01:22 AM   #259
sebatsi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 161121
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Burbs, IL
Vehicle:
1997 OBS
Green

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas View Post
What would happen to the EJ22 Phase I single port block if you stayed with it? Do they have the potential to fail/break easier than the Phase I or II EJ25 engines?
I should have been more thorough with my post. I'm not saying EJ22 is unreliable, as a matter of fact 97 was the year Subaru improved the block/heads (anti-wear coating, solid lifters, etc). I wanted to know from the gurus here that ran/built the frankenstein setup which block they recommend I should run. At least for my needs, as I want HP on tap at every corner w/o spending ridiculous amount of money.
Besides my motor right now every time I start it when its cold begs me for some attention with that piston slap
sebatsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2009, 02:07 AM   #260
Alexshepelev
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 227124
Join Date: Oct 2009
Default

GUys Help me! I m streetracer)))) from Moscow Russia!
i need some Spare parts for impreza.
Following spare parts are necessary to me - if it a little be second hand - no problem.
Please help our special racing team - next competition will be in the 1 of november...

Turbines - IHI - VF 36 and IHI - VF 42,
TEIN H G 5 - 114.3
For LE STI.
Alexshepelev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2009, 03:24 AM   #261
Kevin Thomas
Street Racing Instructor
Moderator
 
Member#: 110
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 1997 OBS, 1996 SVX, 1988 RX
Vehicle:
1989 1989 XT6

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexshepelev View Post
GUys Help me! I m streetracer)))) from Moscow Russia!
i need some Spare parts for impreza.
Following spare parts are necessary to me - if it a little be second hand - no problem.
Please help our special racing team - next competition will be in the 1 of november...

Turbines - IHI - VF 36 and IHI - VF 42,
TEIN H G 5 - 114.3
For LE STI.
Bad Bad mojo! OOOoohhhhhh! I'm gonna tell!

Street racing is Evil and against forum rules.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=396737
"15. Street racing posts of ANY kind, illegal or otherwise, must be posted in the Off-Topic forum or they will be deleted without question. NASIOC does not support illegal street racing in any way, shape or form."

Plus, you double posted this message. 1st and Last warning!

Last edited by Kevin Thomas; 10-17-2009 at 03:30 AM.
Kevin Thomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2009, 08:35 AM   #262
iluvdrt
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 46248
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: DRTY Autosports Denver, Co
Vehicle:
2012 outback 2.5
sky blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexshepelev View Post
GUys Help me! I m streetracer)))) from Moscow Russia!
i need some Spare parts for impreza.
Following spare parts are necessary to me - if it a little be second hand - no problem.
Please help our special racing team - next competition will be in the 1 of november...

Turbines - IHI - VF 36 and IHI - VF 42,
TEIN H G 5 - 114.3
For LE STI.

Not even the right forum to begin with. And Hijacking is not cool.
iluvdrt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2009, 11:49 PM   #263
massdrewski
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 146681
Join Date: Apr 2007
Default

wholy crapper batman. this thread is going to take awhile to read.
massdrewski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2009, 11:04 AM   #264
N/Aontherun
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 226976
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA, USA
Vehicle:
98 Legacy 2.5GT
Black

Default

its WORTH IT!!! all 11 pages
N/Aontherun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2009, 07:34 PM   #265
Matt Monson
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 832
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Teh Ghetto Garage, CO
Vehicle:
99 2.5RS, '85 911
'73 914 and 2012 BRZ

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
My second choice would be the STi SB, but since stock it's set of for a turbo, you would really need to replace the pistons to get back to decent NA numbers.
Not really the case. With the small combustion chamber of the Ej22's you still get a compression ratio up over 10. It's what we're running on Siouxbe's car and it's a fun little car.

In fact, last weekend on the way to the track I got to follow him from a couple of red lights. His 1990 wagon with a frankenstein is faster through the first couple of gears than my MY00 2.5RS with bone stock Ej251 and just a Cobb intake and Borla headers for mods. His whole build is JC sports intake, Cobb EL headers and full exhaust, HCF with stock STI crate bottom end with mildly ported heads and Delta Cams. It definitely faster and more powerful than my car.
Matt Monson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 08:05 PM   #266
ciper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15543
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: san francisco, ca
Vehicle:
90BJ Legacy LS ABS
AWD 946 Rio Red Jpn built

Default

N/Aontherun Why are you using the custom gasket? Subaru makes a MLS gasket of both thick and thin variety.

Also you said you would be using the 2.2 heads with the 2.2 intake manifold and a 2.5gt computer. I wanted to offer any help I can with compatibility since I have built essentially the opposite - 2.5 dohc heads and intake manifold with a 91 legacy computer. Can you be more specific on the years of the cars the parts will be from? I will assume for a moment that you have a 97 Legacy GT and a 90 Legacy donor car.

The one issue I see is EGR. On mine I was going from an EGR engine to a non EGR so I just blocked all the crap off. For yours I think you will have to find a 95+ 2.2 manifold? There are a few random holes on the back of all Subaru heads blocked with hex plugs so you might be able to get exhaust gasses from one of them on the old 2.2 heads. Alternatively I think the 95 2.2 has dual port exhaust AND egr heads without hydro lifters.

The other issue is the wiring harness because since your GT has a rear engine harness exit vs the original Legacy which had a side exit. This isn't hard to convert if you have everything apart. Massage the metal lines under the intake so that the wire harness can sit comfortably on top of the goose neck.

You will probably have to switch throttle bodies since the throttle position sensor is different. Also keep a close eye on that cam position sensor. I used my 90 legacy sensor on the DOHC heads and although the car ran fine the sensor was actually hitting against the magnets! You might have the opposite issue where the sensor is too far away so I sugggest considering the following modification - use an old sensor which has a plug right on it. Cut the wire on the old legacy harness which connects to this sensor and then cut the plug off the DOHC sensor and connect them. This will basically create an extension cable from your engine harness to the old style sensor

Im pretty sure the 2.2 has pistons that go above the deck, check yourself. If they do a thinner gasket may cause them to touch the head. You will also have trouble bolting the intake manifold on if you use a thinner gasket which can be solved by drilling out the holes on the manifold. The timing belt will be looser than normal so make sure your tensioner is in good shape. Id personally consider switching to the vertical style.
ciper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 02:45 PM   #267
N/Aontherun
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 226976
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA, USA
Vehicle:
98 Legacy 2.5GT
Black

Default

Didn't get notification of your post ciper

I've changed a few things since I posted.

EJ25D block - if I can't get a EJ251 or EJ253 block
EJ22 Heads - From older legacy - Dual Exhaust ports
EJ22 Intake Manifold - from 96 Legacy
EJ22 ECU

The reason I'm planning on running a custom head gasket is because I was told that the EJ25 block and EJ22 heads don't line up. I've been told I can run EJ257 Sti head gasket and she'll run a little hotter, but it will work.

The EJ22 intake manifold I have is non egr. I'm just going to block the hole on the block off

Didn't know bout the harness exit. Will have to look into that.

Yea, I'm going to have to use the EJ22 throttle body... unless I can get a Q45 TB to work lol jokin, but not really. Def. an idea, but will attempt later. After I get her running on this setup

The cam position sensor is going to be a bitch if I have to mod it like that. I don't have the harness that it plugs into so we'll see how this turns out.

I'ma have to go home tonight and try to bold the intake manifold to the EJ22 heads... ****!

This is turning into a bigger mess then I thought, but I'm already too into it to back out now... I've ordered my cam grinds already this **** is about to get serious
N/Aontherun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2010, 08:20 PM   #268
ciper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15543
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: san francisco, ca
Vehicle:
90BJ Legacy LS ABS
AWD 946 Rio Red Jpn built

Default

I don't know for certain but the idea that EJ22 heads wont match up to the EJ25 block seems wrong.

You can't use the "STI" gasket with pistons that clear the deck. There are basically two gaskets - the 610 gasket which is the thick MLS gasket meant for any 2.5 with pistons flush to the deck and the 640 thin gasket for all the other 2.5 including STI and SOHC 2.5NA. If you do use the thin one the pistons will just slightly hit the head. The car will run but it will sound like rod knock (I've personally seen this).

BTW i just finished rebuilding my EJ25D and installing into my legacy One unforseen issue was that my cam sensor from the EJ22 mounted into the DOHC 2.5 heads meant the sensor was hitting the marks on the cam gears! A washer between the sensor and mount fixed this

Last edited by ciper; 03-15-2012 at 03:43 PM.
ciper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2010, 11:11 PM   #269
N/Aontherun
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 226976
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA, USA
Vehicle:
98 Legacy 2.5GT
Black

Default

Yea not going with the EJ25D. I was able to score a EJ251 for a good price. The price was so good that once I sell the heads. I will break even

So what ur saying is use the CAM sensor from the EJ22? will have try to get a the plug cut from a harness somewhere... thats going to be hard

You think the sensor from the EJ251 heads will work? since they are SOHC as well?
N/Aontherun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2010, 02:16 AM   #270
ciper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15543
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: san francisco, ca
Vehicle:
90BJ Legacy LS ABS
AWD 946 Rio Red Jpn built

Default

Its time to play Compression Ratio Game again. Please correct me if I am wrong but these should be the specs for an unmodified EJ25D (96~98 DOHC EJ25)
See here's the thing. Most people incorrectly calculate the CR because they dont take into consideration the bore of the headgasket (which is larger than cylinder bore) and that some pistons clear the deck while others are flush.

It should be equal to a stock EJ25D in the 96~98 Subarus. Subaru says its 9.7:1 but I get something higher. Maybe you guys can figure it out?

99.6 bore
79 stroke
46cc head (the EJ25D heads are actually modified Ej20G heads...)
14cc piston dome
.5mm over deck for the piston #
101mm gasket bore *
1.3mm gasket thickness *

Resulting in 10.25CR ?

# This is based on the fact that using the thin "SOHC/STI" gasket results in the EJ25D pistons just barely touching the head and making it sound like you have rod knock.

*see http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=241

Quote:
Originally Posted by N/Aontherun View Post
Yea not going with the EJ25D. I was able to score a EJ251 for a good price. The price was so good that once I sell the heads. I will break even

So what ur saying is use the CAM sensor from the EJ22? will have try to get a the plug cut from a harness somewhere... thats going to be hard

You think the sensor from the EJ251 heads will work? since they are SOHC as well?
I think all the sensors are electrically the same. Use whichever fits The only real difference is in the triggers on the cam gears themselves (and the crank "gear" as well)

You got a complete 251? Why not put the DOHC heads on it and use the 642 gasket?

The compression ratio is going to be crazy high with EJ22 heads on either block. The head volume on the early ej22 was 14cc and I know the phase 2 ej22 got even higher compression ratio. The head volume on the EJ25 is 46cc and 50cc!
ciper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2010, 01:13 PM   #271
N/Aontherun
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 226976
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA, USA
Vehicle:
98 Legacy 2.5GT
Black

Default

I can't help with the compression cuz I dn't know how to play with those numbers

As for why I'm not going with the EJ251 block + EJ25D heads is because I just wanted a higher compression ratio, SOHC which is cheaper to get delta cams. I think in the end the main reason is just because I want to try it out
N/Aontherun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2010, 04:14 PM   #272
JoshP
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 94350
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: S. Maine
Default

The 2.5 head gasket does not line up with the coolant passages on the 2.2 head. No issue with the block to head, its an open block - how could it NOT match up? Best bet is cometic 2.2 gasket style with 2.5 bore size. See pic


JoshP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2010, 04:53 PM   #273
N/Aontherun
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 226976
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA, USA
Vehicle:
98 Legacy 2.5GT
Black

Default

I love you man! no homo. I finally know what they were talking about the head not matching the block. I knew that Cometic makes the gasket, but never seen it.

Thanks for the pic.
N/Aontherun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2010, 09:37 PM   #274
ciper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15543
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: san francisco, ca
Vehicle:
90BJ Legacy LS ABS
AWD 946 Rio Red Jpn built

Default

Since the new gaskets are metal couldn't we modify it to match the passages on the EJ22 head?
ciper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2010, 01:29 AM   #275
N/Aontherun
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 226976
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA, USA
Vehicle:
98 Legacy 2.5GT
Black

Default

Why go thru the risk of modding a gasket when Cometic sells them

This is an email got from Kevin Kistner from Cometic

Ant,
For the most part all Subaru head gaskets are very close if not the
same for coolant layout. We do know that there are certain EJ22 heads out
there that have a slightly different pattern. Because of this we have come
out with a "HYBRID" style gasket so there isn't an issue maintaining correct
coolant temperatures though out the system. The part number is
H1631SPK040S. I have also attached a picture of this gasket so you can
double check that this pattern matches up to the heads you plan to run.
Please pay close attention to the water hole locations as oppose to the size
of the actual coolant holes. If you have any further questions please do
not hesitate to contact me.

Kevyn Kistner
Catalog Director/Technical Sales
Cometic Gasket

N/Aontherun is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Low Compression/High Boost vs High Compression/Low Boost? JoeTX Newbies & FAQs 31 05-18-2006 04:06 PM
What to do? High Compression, Low Boost or Low Compression, High Boost. FlooredSubaru Normally Aspirated with bolt-on Forced Induction Powertrain 6 01-29-2003 10:55 AM
Tuning hp and torque curve w/ low compression and high compression pistons FuJi K Normally Aspirated with bolt-on Forced Induction Powertrain 22 10-14-2001 07:25 PM
High Compression Jgrahn555 SVX Forum Archive 7 04-16-2001 12:31 AM
High compression pistons for NA? bsquare Normally Aspirated Powertrain 7 04-07-2001 10:56 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.