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Old 09-19-2004, 11:22 AM   #1
WRXinEffect
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Default Could Transmission Warranty be voided by a Kartboy ShortShifter?

Just wondering whether it could viably be argued by dealer.
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Old 09-19-2004, 11:43 AM   #2
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probably but its easy to remove if you ever need to go back to the dealer, also im pretty sure that subaru makes a short shifter but our cars dont all come with it (option) maybe the dealer could order you one and install it to, then it definatly wouldnt be a problem
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Old 09-19-2004, 12:46 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezavness
probably but its easy to remove if you ever need to go back to the dealer, also im pretty sure that subaru makes a short shifter but our cars dont all come with it (option) maybe the dealer could order you one and install it to, then it definatly wouldnt be a problem
And people wonder why SOA is so hard on people

To answer the question, the shifter would not void the warranty, however if you break a gear due to abusive driving then SOA will dny coverage on the broken pieces, with or without the shifter in place.
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Old 09-19-2004, 02:48 PM   #4
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Unless of course the gear broke due to an design or manufacturing flaw.
Then they'd have to cover it. The tough bit is proving it.
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Old 09-19-2004, 06:11 PM   #5
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Glenn, in your opinion who has the burden of proof?
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Old 09-19-2004, 08:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaslayer
And people wonder why SOA is so hard on people

Any business that wants to stay in business shouldn't be hard on anybody, much less the purchacers/ fans of their flagship make


Legally the burdon of proof is squarely on SOA, but I the real world there is no one to hold them accountable so you're the one that's SOA..

"they" see the world a wee bit different than the rest of "us people". "they" think someone asking a simple question about a short shifter or offering a simple solution to an overly critical service writer makes "us people" crooked bastards, worthy only of distain.

Get a Subaru short shifter if you want one. Just know that I apparently was able to shift my 5mt waayyy too fast w/o a short shifter.
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STiMULi
Glenn, in your opinion who has the burden of proof
That is a really good question; a 2nd question is to whom must they prove it?

Given that Subaru can just deny any claim based on their own reasoning; they don't have to prove it to anyone unless you take some kind of action (lemon law claim, lawsuit, etc.).

In a lemon law claim, the owner usually only has to prove that the defect exists, how serious it is and how many visits etc.

In either a lemon law claim or lawsuit I'd say the burden of proof (for why they denied claim) is on the manufacturer.

However, the fear/risk of these actions sometimes will cause a manufacturer to honor a claim they don't think is valid.

What would be really good is if the manufacturers had some kind of independent ombudsman you could appeal to.

Glenn
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Old 09-20-2004, 09:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bknblk
Any business that wants to stay in business shouldn't be hard on anybody, much less the purchacers/ fans of their flagship make


Legally the burdon of proof is squarely on SOA, but I the real world there is no one to hold them accountable so you're the one that's SOA..

"they" see the world a wee bit different than the rest of "us people". "they" think someone asking a simple question about a short shifter or offering a simple solution to an overly critical service writer makes "us people" crooked bastards, worthy only of distain.

Get a Subaru short shifter if you want one. Just know that I apparently was able to shift my 5mt waayyy too fast w/o a short shifter.
So you are saying that you support people attempting to defraud a corporation for what could be several thousand dollars, by removing a modification that may or may not have caused the problem in question???


SOA would not have to be hard on people if they were just honest about what happened. And saying that "it failed on my way to school in rush hour traffic" is still a lie if you were at the drag strip on saturday.
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Old 09-20-2004, 10:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bknblk
Any business that wants to stay in business shouldn't be hard on anybody, much less the purchacers/ fans of their flagship make
The Impreza is not Subaru of America's flagship make nor is it their bread and butter though- they sell something on the order of 10 Outbacks for every Impreza sold, and probably half that many Foresters. They probably sell one Baja for every 300 other cars they sell, but we can't help the fact that the marketing agency they used for the Baja was terrible . I can't tell you how few Legacy GTs, Baja Turbos, and Forester XTs come in with tranny problems (zero thus far at our dealership) even though they have essentially the same clutch and tranny as the WRX does. What's the difference between the GTs, BTs, and XTs? I bet folks can guess .

Modifications outside of the intended specs terrify dealerships and SOA because it's outside of the box; they don't see it often, they aren't trained on them, and they don't get paid for fixing things that aren't the fault of some guy on the line in Japan or Indiana. Are there dealerships out there that look at the big picture and see that a short shifter doesn't cause wheel bearing trouble or that an aftermarket suspension didn't cause a blown set of rings? Sure- I may (or may not ) work for one. Subaru of America should, in all honesty, offer a no-warranty price for the Impreza; not because the warranty is never honored (because it is, and very sketchy things get covered more than people would like to think) but specifically because people heavily modify them more often than any other Subaru model. The Type R and Type RA to the best of my knowledge had zero warranty from the second it came off the line (the Spec C might be the same, but I'm uncertain).


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Old 09-20-2004, 11:00 PM   #10
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Brian,

You would be correct. The R and RA models came zero manufacturer support whatsoever.

As far as XT,GT issues, we have had two XT's with issues. One had a faulty water pump that siezed, blew the belt. Soa sent us a longblock. (the old one was "thrown away") The other, I was a dumbass and used Royal Purple in my gearbox. Killed all the synchros and the front diff. I replaced all the synchros on my tab, and since I was in there I swapped the front and rear diff's to 3.90. Highway cruising is soooooooo much nicer now $$$ outta my pocket, even though my district rep offered to pay for it.
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Old 09-21-2004, 01:27 PM   #11
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The problem, IMHO, is that they market and sell some vehicles by promoting a certain image. If you buy the vehicle and try to do what you see in the marketing, you get told it is abuse.

With the WRX, it is sold as 0-60 in 5.4 secs and we see ads of it doing all sorts of high performance stuff. How many 5.4 sec runs before the tranny breaks?

I bet it is the same with SUVs. If you take them for an off-road pummeling, like they do in the ads, you'll break them and get no warranty help.

I can't think of any other products that are sold based on showing usage that is really abuse. Imagine if they advertised a ladder that claimed to hold 250lbs then told you it was abuse if you actually put 250lbs on it.

Last edited by leecea; 09-21-2004 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 09-21-2004, 05:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leecea
The problem, IMHO, is that they market and sell some vehicles by promoting a certain image. If you buy the vehicle and try to do what you see in the marketing, you get told it is abuse.

With the WRX, it is sold as 0-60 in 5.4 secs and we see ads of it doing all sorts of high performance stuff. How many 5.4 sec runs before the tranny breaks?

I bet it is the same with SUVs. If you take them for an off-road pummeling, like they do in the ads, you'll break them and get no warranty help.

I can't think of any other products that are sold based on showing usage that is really abuse. Imagine if they advertised a ladder that claimed to hold 250lbs then told you it was abuse if you actually put 250lbs on it.
What I find hard to believe is that some folks will use this argument when it's obvious the techniques/claims in most of these "professional driver on closed course" commercials could easily lead to premature component failure (as you mentioned). ......are people that naive or gullible to believe they can do this to their own vehicle without consequence?
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Old 09-21-2004, 05:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kean
......are people that naive or gullible to believe they can do this to their own vehicle without consequence?
Is that really a serious question?

Of course they are!
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Old 09-21-2004, 07:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leecea
I can't think of any other products that are sold based on showing usage that is really abuse. Imagine if they advertised a ladder that claimed to hold 250lbs then told you it was abuse if you actually put 250lbs on it.

IMHO if you put 250lbs on it, it probably won't break.....you could even put 300lbs on it and it won't break.....(they usually underrate them) but if a 200 lb person started jumping up and down on one of the steps, it probably would...;and that is "abuse"
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Old 09-21-2004, 07:14 PM   #15
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Brian,

E-mailed you foo !!

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Old 09-21-2004, 11:26 PM   #16
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I've read so many of these threads that I realize it is pointless to continue them, but what the heck...

With any other product you expect to be able to use the product safely and repeatedly to achieve the advertized performance.

If a lamp says it can take "up to a 60 W bulb", you expect to put a 60 W bulb in and leave the lamp on indefinetly without it catching fire.

If a PU truck says it can handle 1/2 ton, you expect to be able to carry 1/2 ton in it repeatedly without it breaking.

If ovenware says it's good for up to 400 degrees, you don't expect it to melt after a few uses at that temp.

If a car says it can do 0-60 in 5.4 secs... no wait, that's different for some reason.
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Old 09-21-2004, 11:31 PM   #17
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We are probably working from many differing definitions buthere are a few:

In 2002 when I bought my WRX it was the end all be all subaru. many people who never ever even thought about subaru and most certaintly were not passionate about subaru were drawn in by it alone. Flagship.

The 5.4 second deal has a special place in my heart. It is billed, for all intents and purposes as a specification. ie. this tool will do this job. That is above and beyond the adverage run of the mill car ad showing all kinds of nonsence. Everyone knows cars can't fly, drive down the front of a car carriers etc. etc. but when you QUANTIFY an action you're scum to not stand behind it.

As for Legs and foresters not having the issues the WRX's are having...They're not sold to the same group and in the same way as to make the owner think he bought a tool that will do the job it was marketed to do(and won't).


I'm amused again at how bold SOA and it's defenders are. We are told in one sentence that it's not really a performance car and if it is it should be handled carfully on gravel roads as to limit the chance traction will break the car and in the next Subaru dealers across the country are lining up to find the new ESX lady dragracer.... I can't count the # of times Hondaslayer's said "IT"S NOT A DRAG CAR!!! IT"S A RALLY CAR!!!"

Why doesn't it occur to you that if SOA is having all these problems with "abusers" Dragging there cars, promoting WRX dragracing is just DUMB.
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Old 09-21-2004, 11:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanH
Is that really a serious question?

Of course they are!
......after reading a few more of these posts, I realized you were right.
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Old 09-21-2004, 11:44 PM   #19
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The 5.4 second 0-60 is not Subaru's # either, that belongs to Car and Driver IIRC. The official 0-60 is 6.4 seconds.
The Forester XT according to car and driver is still 5.3 while the Legacy is 5.5, yet non of these cars have these problems. The drag racing ESX thing is just that ESX's thing. SOA is a sponsor of ESX, therefore they are simply promoting them. Americans love driving fast in straight lines, why I have no idea. And since you dragged ESX in here, why don't you PM Ali and ask him how many trannies/engines that SOA has warrantied for him.....
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Old 09-21-2004, 11:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leecea
I've read so many of these threads that I realize it is pointless to continue them, but what the heck...

With any other product you expect to be able to use the product safely and repeatedly to achieve the advertized performance.

If a lamp says it can take "up to a 60 W bulb", you expect to put a 60 W bulb in and leave the lamp on indefinetly without it catching fire.

If a PU truck says it can handle 1/2 ton, you expect to be able to carry 1/2 ton in it repeatedly without it breaking.

If ovenware says it's good for up to 400 degrees, you don't expect it to melt after a few uses at that temp.

If a MAGAZINE says a car can do 0-60 in 5.4 secs, then a manufacturer repeats it, specifying that it is the magazines #'s and still lists the cars performance at 6.4 sec 0-60... no wait, that's different for some reason.
Fixed it for you.
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Old 09-22-2004, 09:40 AM   #21
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Not much of a fix as I would still not want to try that more than a few times.

But at least its not an Acura tranny.
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Old 09-22-2004, 03:20 PM   #22
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Subaru has to set the guidlines up for the 'lowest common denominator'.

For example, it is no secret that I autox my car, but I don't abuse it when doing so. There was a sharp turn at the last event that was an ideal 1st gear corner. I downshifted to first while taking it, using rev-match as best I could. It didn't feel good, it felt like it was really hard on the car so I didn't do it again (it did get me a better time, though).

On the other hand, I rode with a first timer at an event this year, who had no idea what they were doing. SHE would clutch in going through a turn while hitting the brake at the same time. When she wanted to accelerate, she SLIPPED the clutch. the revs were probably somewhere around 5K at 20 mph in 2ND GEAR. She would finally let the clutch all the way out and the car would take off. THis happened repeatedly and it smelled like a raccoon pooped on the dash or something.

You never know what someone has done to their car. Either through mods or driving habits/skill.

I have spoken with some Subaru emplyess about the whole warranty thing, and I believe MOST dealerships try to do the MOST they can for you MOST of the time.

Unfortunately, there is no perfect science to it.
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Old 09-22-2004, 06:39 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaslayer
The 5.4 second 0-60 is not Subaru's # either, that belongs to Car and Driver IIRC. The official 0-60 is 6.4 seconds.
The Forester XT according to car and driver is still 5.3 while the Legacy is 5.5, yet non of these cars have these problems. The drag racing ESX thing is just that ESX's thing. SOA is a sponsor of ESX, therefore they are simply promoting them. Americans love driving fast in straight lines, why I have no idea. And since you dragged ESX in here, why don't you PM Ali and ask him how many trannies/engines that SOA has warrantied for him.....

Both of these agruments unfortunatly peg the bogus meter with me. When the local dealerships Paint "5.4 sec. 0-60 MPH!! In letters about 15 feet tall on the showroom windows, they OWN THE NUMBER. I couldn't care less if they got them from Ms. Cleo.....

Second, if you really wanted these stupid young drivers to stop breaking your cars doing something it wasn't ever even remotely intended for, You wouldn't sponsor similar activities. SOA doesn't really care if they do, it's more money for them when the tranny craps itself. This national promotion of WRX dragracing sends the message loud and clear that SOA puts sales first, customer satisfaction/ car life second. It just says that if I come up with something, oh lets say underwater WRX racing and SOA thought it would sell cars, They'd do it in a heartbeat. Still don't get the picture??

Why doesn't SOA put all their motorsports backing into Rallying?? They've actually pulled back their partisipation in the one form of motorsports they sell good basic foundation equipment for. WRC got me to the Subaru dealer...

They want it both ways and will end up with nothing.
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Old 09-22-2004, 08:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bknblk
Both of these agruments unfortunatly peg the bogus meter with me. When the local dealerships Paint "5.4 sec. 0-60 MPH!! In letters about 15 feet tall on the showroom windows, they OWN THE NUMBER. I couldn't care less if they got them from Ms. Cleo.....

Second, if you really wanted these stupid young drivers to stop breaking your cars doing something it wasn't ever even remotely intended for, You wouldn't sponsor similar activities. SOA doesn't really care if they do, it's more money for them when the tranny craps itself. This national promotion of WRX dragracing sends the message loud and clear that SOA puts sales first, customer satisfaction/ car life second. It just says that if I come up with something, oh lets say underwater WRX racing and SOA thought it would sell cars, They'd do it in a heartbeat. Still don't get the picture??

Why doesn't SOA put all their motorsports backing into Rallying?? They've actually pulled back their partisipation in the one form of motorsports they sell good basic foundation equipment for. WRC got me to the Subaru dealer...

They want it both ways and will end up with nothing.
So you think Subaru should warranty cover a car used for rallying, or drag racing, or what ever because they have a motorsports program that backs these activities? That's the funniest thing I've ever heard! What manufacturer does that?

I wonder what strange looks John Force would get trying to bring his Ford dragster into the local dealer for warranty work!

Subaru doesn't want it both ways, idiot owners do.

Subaru states in print (Owners manual) what can/will impact the defect warranty offered with the car. It's the non-reading owners who think they can race, rally whatever their cars and get them fixed for free.
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Old 09-22-2004, 10:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bknblk

I'm amused again at how bold SOA and it's defenders are. We are told in one sentence that it's not really a performance car and if it is it should be handled carfully on gravel roads as to limit the chance traction will break the car and in the next Subaru dealers across the country are lining up to find the new ESX lady dragracer.... I can't count the # of times Hondaslayer's said "IT"S NOT A DRAG CAR!!! IT"S A RALLY CAR!!!"

Why doesn't it occur to you that if SOA is having all these problems with "abusers" Dragging there cars, promoting WRX dragracing is just DUMB.

You have to remember, these cars are modified for these things by PROFESSIONALS, not your "driveway installer" (don't mean to offend anyone who actually knows what they are doing), they put on modifications that actually are MADE for the car (specially designed, not bought at the local auto parts store, etc) and they don't go back to Subaru and whine when they break something.

They are also professional drivers, trained to drive the way they drive. I'm sure they don't get in their Honda/Toyota/whatever and drive the same way, break something and take it to the dealer and expect something covered under warranty.

P.S. Ford, Chevy and Pontiac all sponsor cars in NASCAR, but you don't see anyone complaining about their warranty!
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