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Old 06-26-2001, 05:04 PM   #1
Conduit
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Question Evans NPG Waterless coolant, any educated opinions?

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Old 06-27-2001, 01:06 AM   #2
Dave_Clark
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I've used this stuff for 10 years in various rally cars. It's not hype, it really works. In my turbo Dodge Omni rally car cooling was an issue due to lots of left foot braking and a limited amount of space for a larger radiator. With the stock system I would regularly see 260+ degrees F water temp on stage!
I switched to the Evans propylene glycol coolant, their little moisture condenser, and unpressurized radiator cap. I got rid of ALL the water in the system as instructed. Water is a contaminant with the propylene glycol (referred to hereon as PG.) PG has a boiling point of 370 degrees F with no pressure. So you can see how water would bring the boiling point down. Plus, as they explain, in hot spots in the engine normal water/ethylene glycol is in a constant state of "nucleate boiling", meaning you don't get good liquid to metal contact, just constant recondensing vaporization. The PG has such a high boiling point that retains liquid to metal contact in those hot spot areas and can actually remove the heat more efficiently.
What this means is that in some circumstances you can actually see higher water temps on the guage! This just means that the heat is actually being more efficiently exchanged out of the engine. For example, when I switched over I noticed slightly higher temps when cruising on the highway at 65mph. However, you could see on the guage that the PG was more efficient and could dissipate the heat more quickly. At about 65-70mph the guage would read about 190. Slow down to 55-60mph and you could watch the needle drop down to 180. At idle the needle drop down to 160. Speed up and the temp would rise again. That shows me that the PG was more efficiently exchanging heat from the engine. On stage during a rally the peak temp wasn't a lot different, maybe 250-260 but it would never go higher. This is with the stock radiator and [i]no[i] pressure. But after the stage was over, transitting to the next the engine cooled down to 180 or so very quickly. That was never the case with the stock pressurized system with water/ethylene glycol. We used PG in Ralph Kosmides first N/A Supra and you could leave the car idling all day long and the electric fan would never come one, the temp never going over 145F.

I have used the Sierra brand PG coolant successfully as a substitute for the Evans. You have to watch out, though some brands of PG coolant have water in them (bad!) and they all seem to add colored dye. The Evans PG is clear and has proper anti corrosion additives, etc. That would be the safest bet if you are running waterless, but like I've said, I've used Sierra waterless with just as good results.

Running with no pressure is a nice advantage because it's less stressful on all components of the cooling system. For instance, if you somehow cut a hose you could just wrap it up with tape and it would seal alright. Also, PG is non-toxic, you just pour it down the drain. In fact, PG is commonly used in the food industry. It is sometimes used as an anti-foaming agent in beer (not Guinness, I should think...)

The major disadvantage with PG is that it is flammable under certain conditions. We had a small coolant fire at Rim when the overflow bottle burped onto the hot exhaust. Still, gasoline is much more flammable and it's not that big of a deal to plumb it into the engine without it catching on fire all the time. As long as you take into consideration that PG can be flammable and are careful that there are no leaks (just as you would the fuel or oil system) then it shouldn't be a problem.

I don't think it would be worth the bother to go to a waterless PG system in a street car. If you are not having cooling problems then there's probably no point. But if you are racing and seeing high temperatures all the time and need more efficiency then it's definitely worthwhile.
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Old 06-27-2001, 01:37 AM   #3
LVSUBARU
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Wow!!! That's really cool. How do you flush out all the water from your motor and radiator???
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Old 06-27-2001, 02:29 AM   #4
Dave_Clark
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Well, the Evans kit gives you instructions on what to do. Here's what I did. I pulled the lower radiator hose off and drained everything. Behind my shop were railroad tracks so I parked my car sideways on the steep bank there so as much water would run out of the engine as possible. Then I drove around the parking lot in figure 8's a such to shake as much water out of the engine as possible. Then I took the radiator out so I could shake as much water out as possible and then reinstalled it. Next I filled the cooling system back up with the PG and installed the no pressure cap. You can make one out of a conventional pressurized cap by removing the spring and plunger. Following the Evans instructions I took a very long clear plastic hose, say 6 or 7 feet and connected one end to the overflow tube on the radiator. The other end I hung way up in the air. Actually the end was draped over a nail above my head so the end of the tube was actually pointing down. The next step was to disconnect the fan and run the engine, getting the temperature way up over 212 degrees so any excess water would boil out. Remember, the PG has a boiling point of 370 degrees unpressurized. The PG also expands quite a bit when it gets hot, that's the reason for putting the tube way in the air. That's also why you need to make sure you have a plenty big overflow bottle. As the engine heats up the PG expands up into the tube and the water boils off, escaping as steam. I had to keep revving the engine to get it hot enough. After a while all the excess water boiled out and the steam quit. Then it was a matter of plugging in the fan and bringing the temp back down to 180 or so. This little demonstration was all I needed to convince me that the stuff wasn't snake oil! The last step was to install the little condenser thingy that traps any moisture that gets into the system. It goes in the hose between the radiator and the overflow bottle. Every so often you are supposed to put it in the oven and cook it to clear out any trapped moisture. I've used straight PG in other cars with out the condenser, though.

Last edited by DMS-USA; 06-27-2001 at 02:32 AM.
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Old 06-27-2001, 04:38 AM   #5
Conduit
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So, in your opinion then, this would be a safe upgrade on a WRX? The heat here is brutal...today it was 97 with 95 percent humidity, and my fans are on all the time...
take care,
rob wants heat extractors!
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Old 06-27-2001, 12:20 PM   #6
fsjrex
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Greetings,

I too have been using propylene glycol, and triethelyne gycol in various cars for a few years now, with excellent results. (Triethylene glycol boiling point 330 degrees F.) I've found that the water will naturally flash off over time in a non-pressurised system. You just need to keep topping off the condenser tank until the water is all gone. This system is a godsend in Hare scrambles and Baja, (Motorcycles) as cactus thorns regularily puncture coolant hoses and if you run a pressurised system, well you're hooped. Up here it is cold ten months out of the year, so I usually run with no fan at all on the street and my highway cars. It usually blows peoples minds to look under the hood and see no fan, the engine running, especially after they tell me its "impossible". What most people find difficult to wrap their minds around is what is true "overheating". Ever watched the cylinder head temps on an aircooled Lycoming aircraft engine? On takeoff, the temps can climb past 375 degrees F, and no, the engine is not overheating nor complaining. In a water cooled engine, damage is only done when a hotspot boils away the coolant and the local temp goes real high. With propylene G. or trieth, the motor will be perfectly happy running at 280+ degrees. The problem lies with the ECU, as it will think there is a problem and limit power.
Anyway, don't hesitate, the system works great.
Regards,
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:58 PM   #7
Garandman
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Thread resurrection record.

Just saw this stuff on Wheeler Dealer. Seems like a great product for a WRX. But there are NCO dealers around.

Is there another brand available? Or available online?
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:50 PM   #8
Unabomber
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on car parts so PM
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Not great product as it will catch on fire and melt your entire car. But you knew that already didn't you as you researched it. And with any product, we have a Car Parts Wanted forum where you can ask for where to buy....or there is google.
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