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Old 11-19-2004, 01:47 AM   #51
WL Flatout
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G'day everyone.

Im releaved to see that people are still talking to me/us

Its probably best to separate the strut top from the shock issue to best explain.

From an outright handling point of view, the less "undamped" spring rate the better. Any rubber bush or strut top will have a spring rate and its "undamper" or uncontrolled. The harder the material the higher the rate and in the case of the strut top, the harder the rate, the more the shock and spring will work which is what they are supposed to do. The down side is the reduction in isolation between road and driver/body which much lead to increased NVH.

It is possible and likely that some brand shocks coupled with certain rate springs will set up unwanted occilations as the various frequency's work with and against each other. I can say with certainty that our Group 4's do not exhibit this tendency when using standard FHI strut tops, thats what we've used on test for most of the 2 years of development.

Changing to a harder rubber type will deliver different front end behaviour but I do not believe there will be any negatives from the shock/strut top interplay. Equally we have many sets running with adjustable, spherical bearing strut tops.

Best
Jim

Whiteline Automotive

PS. Copies of all instruction sheets are available for download from http://www.whiteline.com.au/fittingsheets.htm . You'll need Z277_1K4039.pdf and Z265_Group4.pdf
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:30 AM   #52
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Old 11-19-2004, 08:07 AM   #53
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Thanks for the reply Jim.

I can't wait to get it installed. My car has done 70 000 km on the standard MY02 struts.

Is there anyway to guesstimate the approx height to set the platform given that I want a 30 mm drop. I have the 1k4006 kit(60 mm max drop).

Camber bolt question.

Do I insert the small tab into the hole on the strut body then install the bolt over the small tab.

Do I install the rear camber bolt in the lower hole on the group fours?

Thanks
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Old 11-19-2004, 08:44 AM   #54
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What are spring silencers?


What is the black tape trick?
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:24 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WL Flatout
Hope we havent offended too many.
Quite the opposite- thanks for the explanation, Jim!
I'd already spent quite a bit of time researching Aussie sources, so was already aware of Whiteline's strong presence in racing "down unda", so I knew there was more to the story. Glad you posted.

Oop- what's that sound? Is it me becoming a Whiteline fan-boy?
Mebbe!

Jim- You have a PM (or will in a second...)

Russ R
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Old 11-19-2004, 12:22 PM   #56
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HI all, I am just catching up on the board and would like to relate to you my almost year long experience with these the Group 4 coilovers.
These are installed on a 2002 wrx, with camber/castor plates and whitelinerear sway bar 22-26.
In the summer i run toyo r's 225/50/16 for autocrosses.
no engine mods other then ecu tune.

I recieved them in February and installed them then. competed in 3 winter solo events and won all 3 outright, The field size was about 50-60 cars per event and about 30% of the field was a subaru of some type.
I had reservations about putting them in thinking they may be too stiff for ice and snow. I had no issues with handling.

I have competed in 9 Regional championship events in Ontario, the Canadian Championship in Quebec, and 2 detroit region solo events. The results are as follows, 6 regional class wins, 2 regional second places, 1-4th place (tire issue) National Class win (against 5 other subaru wrx's, all with considerable more power then i have) 2 class wins in Detroit.
In addition to winning classes I placed very favourably in a number of events scoring many top 5 overall times.
(ie 3rd overall in detroit of 175 cars)

The courses i ran on included everything from a small parking lot where we never got out of first gear to wide open lots (ie Pontiac Silverdome) to race tracks.

Without a doubt I believe that the suspension is what helped me do so well. I am a firm believer that excessive springs rates are an autoxer's worst enemy.
The fact that the spring rates on the whitelines are between stock and say a 500 cusco i believe helps the car achieve grip easier then a car with very stiff springs.

The valving seems to work. I have been able to dial the car in very quickly and pretty much now can set the suspension after the second run and just play with tire pressures.

If you are looking for a good all round suspension that you can use on the street, autox and track I would highly recommend the grp 4's

Tony Kloosterman
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Old 11-19-2004, 12:33 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Racing
Without a doubt I believe that the suspension is what helped me do so well. I am a firm believer that excessive springs rates are an autoxer's worst enemy.
The fact that the spring rates on the whitelines are between stock and say a 500 cusco i believe helps the car achieve grip easier then a car with very stiff springs.

Tony Kloosterman
Hi Tony, thanks for joining the debate! What I've quoted from you above seems to be the crux (in addition to the low speed damping rate/digressive valving) of the debate.

Its become internet fact over the years that higher spring rate is the way to control body roll and that bigger swaybars (how big is too big is not really clear) is the wrong way to control roll, that you lose the independence of the wheels with a big bar.

What previous suspension have you had before? Did you ever previously run on the stiff spring type of setup? If so how does the softer spring setup matched with larger bars compare subjectively? Also, can you see a difference with having longer travel compared to the short travel suspensions out there?

Obviously you are doing quite well with this setup and its nice to see, that at the least, they aren't holding you back.
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Old 11-19-2004, 05:41 PM   #58
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Hi Arnie, thanks for the invite

I have actually run 4 diff suspensions in the last 3 years.
First (in 2002) just front and rear bars and an alk (all whiteline), rear bar at 24 and front at 22, reasonably happy with this setup, but it was really just the first set in my autox experience.

I then ran (2003) all the above with whiteline lowering springs and GC8 KYB adjustable struts, (no GDAs avail at the time), I made a spacer to compensate for the rear height difference that the GC8 struts had. This setup was a disaster, the car understeered very badly. I tried a number of options and finally found by putting the front stock bar back in the car the car handled much better.

My closest competitor in Ontario runs a WRX and has up and down pipes and an open exhaust , ECU tuning. DMS 40's, whiteline rear bar (at 24)and ALK. I have driven his car on 3 different occasions (in competition) and found the setup similar to my whiteline /kyb combo but with better turn in.
I believe his DMS 40's have very high spring rates. I can check with him and post the numbers if you like.
We are very closely matched in driving skill (2 events determined by 22 thou and 55 thou of a sec)

I now run the setup i stated in my post above. it is by far the best of the 4 so far.

We both went to Detroit for a regional event at the Silverdome. The layout (dry) was pretty fast and had some higher speed cornors where theoreticly stiffer springs should work better. I beat him by 1 second on a 55 second course. Where he found he was losing grip ( a couple of off camber cornors) I felt i had lots of grip.

Next year i will experiment with going to a stiffer front bar again and adjust the rear to match. This is an experiment and i am curious to see the results.

My camber is set at -3.5 neg front and my castor is 5 degrees.(not running an alk at this time)
My camber/castor plates are made by a friend of mine and seem to work pretty well (8 sets on the autox circuit now) no complaints.

This discussion is valuable to everyone that wants a high performance suspension that is still streetable and its great that so many people contribute. Keep the discussion going. Unfortunately with our weather up here I won't be able to post my new findings till late march or april when the lots are dry again and the temperatures come up to something that the R's will like.

Tony
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Old 11-19-2004, 06:17 PM   #59
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Thanks for posting your info Tony. I think its important for the motorsports folks to see that this setup is in fact a viable one. I don't compete so my input is probably worthless. Yeah, as I posted in the TEIN/Zeal thread, I think its going to take some time before people accept this, very contrary, setup as viable. However, to completely dismiss it as not motorsports worthy is, frankly, unfair. Especially, if one hasn't actually driven a car with this setup in anger and one is just going off of a dyno graph. As I was saying in that thread, I think until now, people didn't have anything like this setup to even try. All the TEIN, Cusco's and JIC are shorter travel than the G4's. They have to run stiff springs and dampers or they will constantly bottom out. And now we have something with much more travel, and more importantly MORE OIL VOLUME, that allows a softer damping and spring rate to get a similar performance level with a better ride. I think the education and understanding of this setup just isn't there yet.

Last edited by Arnie; 11-24-2004 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 11-24-2004, 01:53 PM   #60
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Sorry to cross post but along these lines of further educating ourselves to the basics of suspension here are two threads that folks should read:

http://www.suspensionparts.info/show...p?threadid=272

http://www.suspensionparts.info/show...p?threadid=273

Let the debate continue!
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Old 11-24-2004, 02:55 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBiggly
That being said, I agree wholeheartedly with you on the valving of the Whiteline Group4s. They are not a highly competitive motorsport strut at all; but they do offer a good coilover for street and won't blow up if you take them into some light off-road. That makes them great for a LOT of coilover buyers who want to have coilovers just for the sake of having them, not because they are on the absolute competitive edge of motorsports.
Have you driven a car equipped with the Group4s in a motorsports environment?
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Old 11-24-2004, 06:47 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty
Stock struts and tops with these springs is a perfect recipe for a bad ride.
Under-damped/over-sprung and the stock tops are mush.....

One of the local guys did the Espelir springs/AGX struts/Noltec F-group N R tophats and it is a pretty damn good combo.


I believe that I will buy the Whiteline group 4's...or Zeals....for coilovers
I thought the STi shocks have similar dampening rates as the AGX shocks..?

If so, why would his STi be underdampneed with Eseplir springs?
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Old 11-24-2004, 07:11 PM   #63
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I think he didn't realize it was an STI.
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Old 11-25-2004, 12:07 AM   #64
WL Flatout
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G'day,

Thought you might be interested in a coil-over specific post we threw up on

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...6&page=3&pp=25

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Best

Jim and everyone at Whiteline
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Old 11-25-2004, 12:24 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnavarro
I think he didn't realize it was an STI.
....yep....
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Old 12-17-2004, 04:52 PM   #66
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My G4 were installed yesterday by MPJ Performance. These guys are really good and I highly recommend them. I'm convinced this is the best mod I've done yet to my car. I will post a full write up/evalution of the shocks. I still need to get the car aligned and adjust the ride height. What's a good starting point for dampener settings f/r for an STI 4/4 6/4?
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Old 12-17-2004, 05:19 PM   #67
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1) They should have set the ride height and dampers for you.
2) Whiteline should have given you documentation, specs, and recommendations for both of those as well.
3) Those springrates (were they custom spec'd for your application?) seem awfully low for any motorsports activity other than off-road. Is this your primary application? (This will help you determine ride height.)


IMO, you've been had as a coilover install should come with a base setup to work from as long as you gave them your particular use habits/patterns/etc, not to mention an alignment.
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Old 12-17-2004, 05:28 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty
Stock struts and tops with these springs is a perfect recipe for a bad ride.
Under-damped/over-sprung and the stock tops are mush.....

One of the local guys did the Espelir springs/AGX struts/Noltec F-group N R tophats and it is a pretty damn good combo.


I believe that I will buy the Whiteline group 4's...or Zeals....for coilovers
hehe, i'm that local guy! but yup, everythign the uncle said is spot on except that i have the stock WRX rear top hats. i absolutely LOVE the way the car rides on setting # 2 all the way around. and then i bump it up for autoX. absolutely incredible performance for $800. that's springs/struts/camber/caster plates
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Old 12-17-2004, 06:25 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBiggly
1) They should have set the ride height and dampers for you.
2) Whiteline should have given you documentation, specs, and recommendations for both of those as well.
3) Those springrates (were they custom spec'd for your application?) seem awfully low for any motorsports activity other than off-road. Is this your primary application? (This will help you determine ride height.)


IMO, you've been had as a coilover install should come with a base setup to work from as long as you gave them your particular use habits/patterns/etc, not to mention an alignment.
These are for the street and maybe the 1 or 2 times a year I go to the track. I fit the demographic these coilovers are designed for. Here is the basic instructions but they don't have specific recommendations for the WRX/STI http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/ins...265_Group4.pdf. and http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/ins...267_1k4006.pdf. I don't get the note about excluding the STI. The dampeners are set on 1 right now. I'm adjusting the ride height myself to about 13 inches to fender gap from center for rear and 13.5 for front.

Last edited by mnavarro; 12-17-2004 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 12-17-2004, 07:35 PM   #70
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keep us informed mnavarro!
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Old 12-17-2004, 08:16 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBiggly
3) Those springrates (were they custom spec'd for your application?) seem awfully low for any motorsports activity other than off-road. Is this your primary application? (This will help you determine ride height.)
Where did he mention spring rates? 6/4 was about "dampener settings".

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBiggly
IMO, you've been had...
Does that shop do alignments? The one I go to has great mechanics but no alignment tools.

mnavarro, looking forward to your report.
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Old 12-17-2004, 09:05 PM   #72
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mnavarro - my ride heights are about where yours are. Up front I'm at 13.75", rear 13.25" center to fender. For general city cruising my wife likes about 4F/4R or 4F/3R (I used to run 2/2 but slowly bumped it up and she doesn't mind this setting), and for medium performance when I am alone I go to about 7-9F with 6-8R. I like to run a bit softer in the rear than up front as I don't need the added rotation that a stiffer rear gives you. I have a 22mm F Whiteline swaybar and a 22-24mm Rear Whiteline bar, set to the middle. Alignment specs are about -1.3 up front and -1.4 in the rear. I used to run less neg. camber in the rear but felt the rear was too lively for faster sweepers and transitions. It felt great on really tight stuff a la autox but I wanted a bit more stability. 0 toe all around.

Last edited by Arnie; 12-17-2004 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 12-17-2004, 09:33 PM   #73
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Thanks Arnie, that's exactly the information I've been looking for. Some people on these forums are a little quick to jump conclusions, like I've "been had", that's f*ing hilarious. There is information out there just a little confusing as it relates to the sti. MPJPerformance is an install shop, but they are not equipped to do alignments. It takes about 5 minutes to change the height on these coilovers. I want to make sure I have a good reight height spec for my coilovers before I have my alignment done.
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Old 12-17-2004, 11:04 PM   #74
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A really good alignment shop can also corner balance the car if you want.

Do people on this forum with coilovers corner weight their cars?
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Old 12-17-2004, 11:09 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwak
Do people on this forum with coilovers corner weight their cars?

everyone i know with coilvers have corner balanced their car with some heavy duty scales.
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