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Old 11-16-2004, 06:40 PM   #1
n2xlr8n
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Wink EJ257...goodbye PCV

I'm doing something that may interest a few (the gearheads and mechanically inclined ). Buried in these threads somewhere I mentioned that I would be using an electric vacuum pump to scavenge the oil mist from my crankcase. It has begun. For roughly the price of a bling-bling Catch can, you can have a system that not only works, but might make a few hp, as well.

This serves two purposes (one more significant than the other):
1) To help ring seal
2) To prevent oil contamination of the intake charge

I have used this "pump" on three different engines; all are high-rpm race engines in excess of 900hp, and have never used a measurable fraction of oil. I will be using the pump on my EJ257; it no doubt could use a gadget like this.

The install will involve $150, some tinkering, and welding a bung below the oil level in the oil pan.

If there is interest, I will post a write-up in this thread.

MOD FAQs:

Will it void my warranty? You bet.

How does it work? The electrically operated pump draws approximately 10" of vacuum constantly, eliminating the need for a convoluted valve cover, crankcase, inlet, PCV system.

Can it suck the bearings dry? No. A improperly spec'd belt-driven pump can, though; that is not what this is.

I've heard of engines making more hp with these systems. Is that true? You bet. I've seen it on a dyno, but that's not the primary reason for doing this.

Are these for sale? No. I'm not selling anything. I'm passing on what I think is valuable information.


Steve
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Old 11-16-2004, 06:54 PM   #2
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More horsepower, cleaner running and less complicated breather system.... yeah I'm interested
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:00 PM   #3
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Please Post a Writeup !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:04 PM   #4
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Quote:
More horsepower, cleaner running and less complicated breather system.... yeah I'm interested
Win!
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:05 PM   #5
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One more request for a writeup from me.

Last edited by SinistiR; 11-21-2004 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:54 PM   #6
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C'mon. Lets hear it!


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Old 11-16-2004, 09:12 PM   #7
Kwyjibo
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i'm interested too
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Old 11-16-2004, 09:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoherbs
Win!
Yeah, when?

This'll be cool.
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Old 11-16-2004, 09:47 PM   #9
CK02WRX
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I have thought about a catch can but this sounds better for the money. What happens if the pump fails? How will you know if the pump fails? How much is a replacement pump?
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:44 AM   #10
awilson529
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Also interested

+1 for write-up!
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Old 11-17-2004, 06:55 AM   #11
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It's a good idea.

Have you plans to integrate an oil seperator (hence the bung in sump)?

I know Moroso do some but the complexity of a belt drive has put my off so far. Can you give details of the pump, I would like to fit it as it solves another problem too.

Paul
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Old 11-17-2004, 01:05 PM   #12
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I'm right in the middle of an engine build, but I can start taking pictures now. In the meantime, for those that would like to delve into this mod, the part numbers are thus:

GM 24505066 air pump, 95 Corvette
GM 12117025 Plug

1) Remove the large black plastic cover from the pump. There are three tangs and silicone sealer holding the two halves.

2) Remove the dense foam surrounding the pump housing. In the event a large amount of oil is aspirated, the foam will cause pump meltdown...don't ask

3) Remove the small green solenoid entirely from the circuit.

Hot=ORG
GND=BLK

I would strongly suggest using a relay with this pump; it pulls a bit of current.


Steve
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Old 11-17-2004, 01:12 PM   #13
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Need diagram of how hoses are routed Steve. I saw a guy run a belt smog pump for this purpose on a Salt flat car. Made 22hp at the wheels. It was a 600CI V8.

Clark
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Old 11-17-2004, 01:19 PM   #14
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Check this link

http://www.hardtail.com/techtips/vacuum-pumps.html

Has the part numbers, and of course a suggestion to get the pump at a junk yard

I'm curious about your suggestion to route it back into the oil - I'm assuming this is for two reasons - #1 no reason not to route oil vapor back into the oil, but #2 it should keep the oil pressure up.

But, its also routing all that "stuff" back into your oil by doing that. Those of us running water/alcohol injection could definitely benefit by putting a catch can between the breather and the pump I would imagine, to help remove some of these impurities. My oil gets pretty nasty looking in short order, I would imagine with more vacumn (and a way of sifting out the bad stuff) I could clean that up quite a bit

Right?
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Old 11-17-2004, 01:57 PM   #15
n2xlr8n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZScoobie
Need diagram of how hoses are routed Steve. I saw a guy run a belt smog pump for this purpose on a Salt flat car. Made 22hp at the wheels. It was a 600CI V8.

Clark

I'm still working on that. For right now, what I'm thinking about is sealing the Valve cover vents, scavenging the pressure from the crankcase vent, through a home made catch can, to the pump, into the oil pan bung. What I'm toiling over is how to prevent aeration of the oil, or, if it even has an effect. I need to check the oil pickup relationship to the bottom of the pan first.

DarthChicken: the article has its merits, but the part about lowering your oil pressure/stealing oil from the bearings....I can't see it. Not with 10-15" of vacuum. Not going to happen.

Last edited by n2xlr8n; 11-17-2004 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 11-17-2004, 02:13 PM   #16
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The pick up is pretty low in the pan and the pan is baffled. Does the return have to go into the oilpan? Thats a hassle and would require engine removal for install. What about going back down the oil fill cap? ends up in the same place... A single fitting drilled and screwed into the plasic fill tube?

Clark
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Old 11-17-2004, 05:22 PM   #17
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I think the oil fill cap might be an issue because it goes through the head - I think you'd want to basically flush this back into a place that will allow the oil to "defroth" (is that a word? LOL), like the bottom of the pan... the dipstick is too small to do this effectively I would imagine as well, 14" of vacumn is an aweful lot of air.
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Old 11-17-2004, 05:27 PM   #18
n2xlr8n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingpin
The pick up is pretty low in the pan and the pan is baffled. Does the return have to go into the oilpan? Thats a hassle and would require engine removal for install. What about going back down the oil fill cap? ends up in the same place... A single fitting drilled and screwed into the plasic fill tube?

Clark

I'm working on it. Keep brainstorming; something might shake loose.

Question: What would be wrong with having the output of the crankcase breather, through a oil separator into the pump, then to a catch can? (once the weight of the oil overcomes the force of the vacuum, or you turn the engine off, it drains back into the crankcase...the oil separator would sit directly above the crankcase vent.

On the previously mentioned engines, I simply took the output of the vacuum pump and routed it to a catch can.
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Old 11-17-2004, 05:38 PM   #19
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But where did you route the catchcan return? Not back into the intake I would imagine.

Is the wrx oil pump a "pull" pump (pulling oil from the engine and draining it into the pan) or a push type (pushes oil into the engine, from the oil pan).

The reason I ask is there are two oil galleys on the bottom of the oil pump, maybe you could use one of those to route the oil back?
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Old 11-17-2004, 05:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
But where did you route the catchcan return? Not back into the intake I would imagine.

Is the wrx oil pump a "pull" pump (pulling oil from the engine and draining it into the pan) or a push type (pushes oil into the engine, from the oil pan).

The reason I ask is there are two oil galleys on the bottom of the oil pump, maybe you could use one of those to route the oil back?

No return. I never drained anything other than a thimble full of oil/condensation from it....other than the time a rod let go.

It's vaned type pump like many others. It pulls, but it's more efficient at pushing, I would imagine...fluid dynamics is not my strong point.

I've seen those galley plugs, though one would not want to return aerated oil back to the pump, for sure.

We're on the right track, folks.
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Old 11-17-2004, 06:12 PM   #21
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http://www.m-20turbos.com/breather.htm
http://www.m-20turbos.com/pr7.htm

My old man has just fitted one of these to his Piper Saratoga aeroplane, it uses a 9 litre flat 6 engine (revs to a massive 3000rpm) and was previously losing a lot of oil (0.5 quarts per hour or more) and had to run the sump low on oil (just above min) to prevent further loss. Now he can run a full sump and has no loss of oil.

The large tube in the bottom extends up to withing about 1/2" of the top of the can, and I am fairly sure the breather goes in at the top and out at the bottom (I can ask), the small pipe on the bottom is to drain back to the sump/crank case.

These paticular ones are very expensive as they are FAA approved with all the paperwork, but they would be easy to replicate I think.

Paul

Last edited by Pavlo; 11-17-2004 at 06:14 PM. Reason: breather goes in at top
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Old 11-17-2004, 06:28 PM   #22
n2xlr8n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlo
http://www.m-20turbos.com/breather.htm
http://www.m-20turbos.com/pr7.htm

My old man has just fitted one of these to his Piper Saratoga aeroplane, it uses a 9 litre flat 6 engine (revs to a massive 3000rpm) and was previously losing a lot of oil (0.5 quarts per hour or more) and had to run the sump low on oil (just above min) to prevent further loss. Now he can run a full sump and has no loss of oil.

The large tube in the bottom extends up to withing about 1/2" of the top of the can, and I am fairly sure the breather goes in at the top and out at the bottom (I can ask), the small pipe on the bottom is to drain back to the sump/crank case.

These paticular ones are very expensive as they are FAA approved with all the paperwork, but they would be easy to replicate I think.

Paul
VG information, Pavlo. I appreciate everyone's input. The M-20 product may be outside the average person's budget, though.

I'm going to be using the tried and true Moroso oil separators (normally plugged into a valve cover). I'm leaning towards putting the catch can return back into the valve cover on the driver's side, rather than the oil pan...I haven't quite settled on that yet. I may run it by the Physicists here at work; one of them is a gearhead^10
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Old 11-17-2004, 06:58 PM   #23
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This is turning into the catchcan arguement again, I can feel it, LOL!

So, route the return back INTO the valve covers? You can do this because of the vacuum created by the pump? You had mentioned earlier about plugging those off.... can you explain this part, you lost me.

(I have next week off work... it was going to be a R180 rear end install vacation, its quickly filling up with LOTS of other projects, LOL!)

Last edited by DarthChicken; 11-17-2004 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 11-17-2004, 07:24 PM   #24
n2xlr8n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
This is turning into the catchcan arguement again, I can feel it, LOL!

So, route the return back INTO the valve covers? You can do this because of the vacuum created by the pump? You had mentioned earlier about plugging those off.... can you explain this part, you lost me.

(I have next week off work... it was going to be a R180 rear end install vacation, its quickly filling up with LOTS of other projects, LOL!)
Suffice it to say that I am bouncing ideas around. I know what has worked successfully on V8 engines. Once I figure out the best way to do it, I'll do the write up...in the meantime, every one can voice their opinion / ideas if they wish.
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Old 11-17-2004, 07:32 PM   #25
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I really don't like the idea of the oil fill line return, and the breater on the valve cover is basically the same idea. Your cams are right there, I don't know if I'd want to chance running frothed oil into that space.

What about just pulling the dipstick and running a return right there? You could skip the oil seperator, and just go straight from pump to oil pan, as in your original post, without having to drill into the oil pan. Anytime you want to check your oil, just pull the return line off of the hard dipstick line and put the dipstick back in....
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