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Old 11-25-2004, 09:15 AM   #1
garie
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Default what tire pressure for falken azeni sports ?

Hi i just got 225/45/17 falken azeni sports mounted on my new rota torques 17x7.5. what range of tire pressures should i be running front and back? any suggestions? i plan to play around with the pressure for the next cpl of days to see how they handle...

thanks

-gary
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Old 11-25-2004, 09:21 AM   #2
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Most say that these like a bit lower pressure than other UHP type tires....mine seem to do as well as can be reasonably expected with ~37F/35R, on the street.....and if you aren't running at least -2 camber in front, you wasted your time buying them....you could have bought Kumho MX's and had a better street tire, IMO.
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Old 11-25-2004, 08:33 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty
Most say that these like a bit lower pressure than other UHP type tires....mine seem to do as well as can be reasonably expected with ~37F/35R, on the street.....and if you aren't running at least -2 camber in front, you wasted your time buying them....you could have bought Kumho MX's and had a better street tire, IMO.

how come the azenis work better with more camber? my front camber is actually pretty moderate. i think -0.7 iirc. well, these tires werent my first choice considering its winter and all in socal, but i got a killer deal on these tires from a friend that i couldnt refuse, so i had to get them.


thanks!

-gary
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Old 11-25-2004, 09:03 PM   #4
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IMO, they are NFG for the street and with wimpy aligment, they are just about worthless as a UHP tire....also if they are used they are likely heat cycled to a rather HARD consistency and will be *dangerous* in any temperatures colder than ~60F, and suicide in cold and wet conditions.

-0.7 is wimpy, and not nearly enough camber.
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Old 11-26-2004, 07:20 AM   #5
garie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

-0.7 is wimpy, and not nearly enough camber.
lol..ok thanks for the info again.

and yes..i know that -0.7 is pretty wimpy. i plan on getting a more aggressive alignment after i get new shocks.

thanks!

-gary
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Old 11-28-2004, 05:08 PM   #6
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I have a set in 205/55-16 on OEM WRX wheels. My front camber is set at -1.0, toe at zero.

Having measured lateral grip with these tires using a GTech Competition meter, and having also measured two sets of hi-end Toyo street tires in 215/45-17 with the same meter, I can tell you that with my alignment settings, the Azenis offer more cornering grip by far than anything I've had on my car.

My butt dyno also agrees that they're the best handling tires I have, even though they are not the widest, nor the lowest profile. They were, however, the least expensive.

Methinks Uncle Scotty lives too close to the tropics, and so gets too much rain on his streets, to appreciate the Azenis on his daily driver. I think if Uncle lived in SoCal, he would feel differently about his tires. Azenis suck in standing water, but standing water in SoCal only happens when somebody shears off a fire hydrant with their SUV.
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Old 11-28-2004, 09:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Stroke
Having measured lateral grip with these tires using a GTech Competition meter
So what were the measurements?
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Old 11-28-2004, 09:45 PM   #8
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On completely stock suspension:

Toyo T1S: .93g
Toyo Proxes 4: .90g, but once saw .91g
Azenis RT-215: .96g or slightly higher

With the addition of a Cusco lower arm bar, v2 to otherwise stock suspension:

Azenis RT-215: .99g

Haven't tested any other tires since adding the V2.
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Old 11-28-2004, 10:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Stroke
On completely stock suspension:

Toyo T1S: .93g
Toyo Proxes 4: .90g, but once saw .91g
Azenis RT-215: .96g or slightly higher

With the addition of a Cusco lower arm bar, v2 to otherwise stock suspension:

Azenis RT-215: .99g

Haven't tested any other tires since adding the V2.

methinks your G meter is not the most accurate thing in the world.

Especially considering many cars with much higher performance suspensions and tires that aren't azenis but reasonably comparable (Stock Porsche's, Corvettes, etc) don't pull .96. Stock corvette .94 and porsche 911 .95.

I have rarely seen items like that give truly accurate readings. Also having raced a stock WRX with Hoosiers I don't think that a stock WRX without them is pulling that much lateral acceleration. It starts to push to quickly. With a well setup aftermarket suspension I believe it could. Furhtermore the number isn't that indicative of overall performance. IMHO

joe
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Old 11-28-2004, 11:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooleyjb
methinks your G meter is not the most accurate thing in the world.

Especially considering many cars with much higher performance suspensions and tires that aren't azenis but reasonably comparable (Stock Porsche's, Corvettes, etc) don't pull .96. Stock corvette .94 and porsche 911 .95.

I have rarely seen items like that give truly accurate readings. Also having raced a stock WRX with Hoosiers I don't think that a stock WRX without them is pulling that much lateral acceleration. It starts to push to quickly. With a well setup aftermarket suspension I believe it could. Furhtermore the number isn't that indicative of overall performance. IMHO

joe
But if I'd said "My butt dyno says Azenis are better than Toyos" without any empirical data, that would be worse, right?

Tires play a bigger role in cornering ability than anything else on the car. Put some Azenis equivalent tires on a Vette, and it would go well above 1g. Ditto any 911 from the last 15 years.

Here's a picture stolen from our sponsor showing lateral G's from three different tires tested on a Lexus IS300:




I think my meter is accurate within .02G, and probably better.

Last edited by 2Stroke; 11-29-2004 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 11-28-2004, 11:46 PM   #11
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[quote=2Stroke]But if I'd said "My butt dyno says Azenis are better than Toyos" without any empirical data, that would be worse, right?

QUOTE]

lol..very true, very true. and yes....socal weather is pretty mild most of the year. but it rained last night again!

-gary
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Old 11-29-2004, 02:44 AM   #12
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Quote:
Methinks Uncle Scotty lives too close to the tropics, and so gets too much rain on his streets, to appreciate the Azenis on his daily driver.
If I lived in the desert, maybe....but the damn things DO--say again--DO heat cycle and become hard where the MX's do NOT and the MX's like heat and do NOT get greasy like the RT- 215's, and I still think, after having had BOTH tires on my car that the MX's are a better street tire.


....and your suspension isn't very modded...and your alignment isn't 'performance' so the tires are more(or less?) of a difference to you and your setup, than mine.

...oh yeah...it got into the low 60's here tonite and was damp and the RT-215's had little traction....the MX's were MUCH better in these same conditions.
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Old 11-29-2004, 07:39 PM   #13
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Yes if you put that rubber on a Porsche or a Corvette it might get that kind of rating. However these are skinny tires on a car with a sloppy suspension.

I am inclined to believe that you G-meter is not that accurate for a number of reasons. The junky stock suspension is very much at the top of the list.

Another

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0308scc_sti/

cliff notes of the web article

200 ft. Skidpad
Vishnu WRX .97g
WRX STi .91g
SPI WRX .91g
STI Hunter .90g


vishnu was so much higher because it was on R compounds and had a thorough suspension treatment. The others were either modded WRX's on bigger and better tires or the STi.

I am going to hazard a guess that they are using better equipment and in a better controlled circumstance.

Those are the main reasons I cannot believe the numbers you are getting with a stock WRX on the stock rims. Especially considering a stock WRX is getting .86 according to Road and Track.

I won't argue the easiest thing to get a WRX or any car to handle better is to put better tires on it.

I do however believe that Azenis don't do THAT much for the car. Especially in stock form. They do make a marked difference but without a good suspension underneath the car it won't be holding a turn that well


joe


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Stroke
But if I'd said "My butt dyno says Azenis are better than Toyos" without any empirical data, that would be worse, right?

Tires play a bigger role in cornering ability than anything else on the car. Put some Azenis equivalent tires on a Vette, and it would go well above 1g. Ditto any 911 from the last 15 years.

Here's a picture stolen from our sponsor showing lateral G's from three different tires tested on a Lexus IS300:




I think my meter is accurate within .02G, and probably better.
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Old 11-29-2004, 08:24 PM   #14
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the importance of the g-meter toy was not for it's accuracy... quit arguing about that. it does show that there is a variance when one variable to an equation is changed. even tho the g-meter toy's accuracy is questionable, it does show that changing the tires on the same car caused the g force readings to change... i personally always thought those toy's were bs watching the infomercials.
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Old 11-29-2004, 09:10 PM   #15
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cooleyjb - Looking around to find where I'd seen people posting about numbers greater than 1.2G on their STX cars, I ran across your posts in several of those threads, saying essentially the same as what you're saying here, "I don't believe...." I won't hazard a guess as to why you argue with people based on belief.

It's not like I'm saying that my WRX is somehow better than yours. What I'm doing is sharing info that would apply to any stock WRX. You could put 205/55-16 Azenis on any bugeye wagon and get the same numbers. I'll understand if you want to argue that point too.

A couple things about these numbers. They are not obtained from steady state on a skidpad. They are taken as the max reading in a particular corner sorta near my home. It's ~170 degrees, flat, slightly uphill, and the asphalt has good grip. I It's a right hand turn when I use it for tire testing. Always use 2nd gear at an entry speed of 40-45 mph, depending on the tires. I always go the same direction, I always drive the same line. I always go fast enough and apply enough power as I clip the apex to slide the car. It's hard on tires and unsafe if there are other cars around. My results, once I find the proper entry speed, are consistent to within the resolution of the meter, even week to week.

Note that the .86G number you quoted for the WRX is on RE-92 tires. How much do you think a different tire could improve that number?

And finally, the numbers for the tuner WRX's in the article you linked are well below what tirerack says you can get by just swapping tires on a stock Lexus IS300. Do you believe one of them is using an inaccurate toy meter?
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Old 11-29-2004, 09:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Stroke

A couple things about these numbers. They are not obtained from steady state on a skidpad. They are taken as the max reading in a particular corner sorta near my home.
You answered my next question for me.

In order to get an accurate reading for lateral acceleration you must take multiple readings and average them out. If you are taking single max readings then you are taking data points that are at the extreme end of the spectrum. Go to the Gtech website. Here is a direct quote

"Absolute accuracy of all measuring equipment, including G-TECH, depends on proper use and minimization of variables along with proper averaging of results." http://www.gtechpro.com/accuracy.html

Since you are taking max numbers and not taking multiple measurements your measurements are not valid for comparison to other tests.

What you are doing for example is standing on a bathroom scale and reading the max number that shows up. Being 170 lbs myself I have seen scales go over 200lbs before it balances out to 170 +/- 10 pounds depending on how much drinking or soccer I've been doing.

As for my previous posts. When I said I don't believe something it's because people are saying hey I did this when they come back with real data I believe them. Why don't I believe them. I've raced my wagon with hoosiers. In stock form it pushed like a john deere. STX cars I would hope could get a lot higher readings. They also have 3-5K dollars of suspension and countless hours of tuning into them.

You are coming back with statistically insignificant data. Should you provide a large number of datapoints averaged out then I will believe your numbers. However you aren't crunching the numbers correctly. You are on the way with trying to replicate the same variables by going through the same turn with the same inputs. It's nice to see someone out there getting hard data. It does show the relative strengths of the tires to eachother. I'm just arguing that the absolute numbers aren't realistic. And by not averaging a large set of data points and using only maximum numbers they aren't.
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Old 11-29-2004, 11:32 PM   #17
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Dude, you so eager to argue that you're not even paying attention. It's a recurring theme with you. Welcome to my ignore list.
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Old 11-29-2004, 11:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Stroke
Dude, you so eager to argue that you're not even paying attention. It's a recurring theme with you. Welcome to my ignore list.

I'm sorry what didn't I pay attention to?????
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