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Old 12-04-2004, 03:50 PM   #1
avatar382
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Default WRX IC install for EA82T (lots of PICS)

My car currently has a Ford Thunderbird IC. I think it's getting heatsoaked quickly for the following reasons:

1.) It's right on top of the turbo
2.) The hood "vents" on the XT Turbo hood barely covers 40% of the IC
3.) It's painted flat black
4.) It's smaller than a WRX IC (I think)

I want to swap it for a WRX IC, which I can (hopefully) position more towards the center of the engine bay, and replace the stock hood scoop with one of those WRX imitation scoops on eBay and hopefully draw in more air.

What I need to know is: What parts do I need to buy? Obviously, I need the IC, a BOV/BPV, and the hose to the IC. I'm wondering if the stock Y-pipe the WRX uses will fit in this case...

PICS:

Ford IC as it is installed now


Another view of the IC and the Volvo BPV currently installed


crappy hood scoop coverage


IC is out. anybody, the little gold colored hose input - what is that for?


Turbocharger I'm probably going to have to worry about hitting the black cylinder shaped thing in the upper left right with the WRX IC?


Turbocharger area again. Look at the black thing in the upper right. I'm hoping it can be moved...


Makeshift heat shield. I'm guessing there are aftermarket parts that insulate the turbo more effectively?

Thanks!
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Old 12-04-2004, 10:18 PM   #2
ncarn8
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youd need to rig somethin up to keep ure window wipers if you move or remove the black thing. or dnt drive in the rain. in ure pics it looks like the gold nub is connected to the pcv breather line?
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Old 12-05-2004, 01:54 PM   #3
avatar382
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I am thinking very strongly of going FMIC, as has been suggested.

I had my mind set on a WRX IC because you can by one for $70-$100, but thinking about a FMIC, looking over my engine bay it seems like it wouldn't be THAT difficult to accomplish....

Looking at car domain, there is a member here that was able to mount an FMIC on his XT Turbo.

Here is a pic if you are lazy


You can see the hose from the turbo snakes toward the drivers' side, which is he same side the outlet hose from the IC comes from. I believe the reason he did that is because there is space to run a 2.5" hose through on the drivers side, but it appears harder to put a hose through the passenger side.

Here is a pic of what the area at my passenger side looks like, by the radiator:


Not much space, as you can see. Still, maybe I can hack some metal and make space somehow.

More questions:
It has been suggested that the gold hose inlet on the Ford IC goes to the crankcase. I assume all intercoolers have such an inlet? What is it for? What happens I just... don't use it?

Seems to me that a bypass valve would probably be a no no, as I would have to route another line back to the intake. That means I would have to shop for a blow-off valve in addition to an intercooler - anyone know of a cheap one? I don't care how it sounds, really....

What effect does the extra length in all these lines have on turbo lag? I'm guessing it would take time for the pressure to "travel" from the turbo all the way around the engine bay and back to the front? Would it be noticable?
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Old 12-07-2004, 02:27 PM   #4
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FMIC's are very over rated. They have lovely issues called lag and pressure drop. a TMIC will OUT POWER a FMIC eqipped car if you install it correctly. As stated putting it over the turbo isn't a happy thing, and you need a scoop with enough area to feed the TMIC.
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Old 12-08-2004, 07:48 PM   #5
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Front mounts are not that over rated, just used too often for BLING. TMIC is ok for the street but not the best. Lag and pressure drop with a FMIC is BS.

Just do a little work with the IC you have. It fits well, just get it some more air with the bigger hood scoop. Maybe a water spray for it?

If you want more power get a new DP without a cat. That was the best thing I did to my GL-10.
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Old 12-09-2004, 07:23 AM   #6
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no lag and definately faster than tmic. After beating the hell out of the turbo i can get out and the intercooler is as cold as when I first turned the car on. It has a .2 psi pressure drop at 15psi.
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Old 12-09-2004, 02:48 PM   #7
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Funny thing is that the FMIC people allways quote the CORE's pressure drop... the real issue is the Pressure drops because of the extra 6-10ft of pipe.

More over I have done and seen alot of cars switch from TMIC's to FMIC's and they all have more lag. PERIOD. More over STi's with the stock turbo make a hell of alot less HP with a FMIC than a TMIC. Try a 20HP loss or so.

Way way too many people bite into the Propaganda spewed by people who have all the technical knowledge of a grapefruit. There is a whole complete and VERY complex set of varibles for making HP. And the mere location of the intercooler isn't one. Pipe length, number of bends, diamiter of pipe, size of core, end tank design etc. are all more important. So if you can get a properly sized TMIC, with really short piping, plus sufficent cooling air flow it will make more power than a FMIC that is too large, has a ton of piping, and has more cooling flow than it needs.

Oh BTW I've tracked my 300crank HP LGT with the stock "tiny" intercooler... and it was at ambient temp after several laps that warped the front rotors and left the rest of the engine bay creaking and popping as it cooled.
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Old 12-10-2004, 12:38 AM   #8
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WOW sweet so you bought my old XT. Man that thing has alot of history. I use to drive that to high school until the orginal engine threw a rod. It sat in my yard for a long time until my buddy Brian bought it off me for 50 bucks. He did most of the mods it has now. XT6 suspension/ interior, VF12 turbo, head porting, spider mani and TMIC, it even has my stock WRX exhaust minus the muffler. It had a rebuilt engine but Dennis blew it up, partly due to crappy aluminum and bad head bolt threads. IIRC he put a couple of engines in it. I know Dennis put some miles on it and tweaked it some.

HEHE so you like my makeshift heat sheild Its not easy fitting a tmic in that car. I know Dennis tried making an intercooler from a 2.5t Forestor work. Its not easy! Brain and me experimented with that intercooler alot and at highway speeds its VERY effective. Like you say heat from the turbo can be a problem when not moving. They do make a turbo wrap/blanket.

I have to dissagree with the FMIC be overrated. A well designed FMIC will work 10x better then the stock tmic. Flow loss through a 2 1/2 pipe is very little and can be caculated(too lazy to do). Pressure loss through the core is most importantant. The small tmic just cant provide the flow of the larger core FMIC. And anyone that says a fmic adds lag is full of it. I ran both the stock Ver 6 tmic and my HUGE fmic and could not even remotely sense any more lag. Exhaust spools the the turbo...not fmic piping. The added volume of the pipes is filled in milliseconds due do the turbos large air flow. Think of this.... if you filled your air compressor with 12psi and plumbed a 2 1/2 ball valve to say 10 feet of 2 1/2 pipe capped at the end, how long would it take to fill that pipe with air after you fully opened that valve. Alot less then halve a second. So saying a fmic adds lag is just BS
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Old 12-10-2004, 02:12 PM   #9
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So you are the original owner? COOL! I bought it off Dennis on eBay, though I paid him a wheeeeee bit more than $50!

I would love to know this history of the car. All I know is that the car was some sort of showpiece from SOA from the eighties?

I know Dennis dropped in a fully rebuilt motor less than 1000 miles before he sold it to me, put in cams, and did a bunch of other stuff. I haven't done all that much to it myself apart from cosmetics - new speakers, sony head unit, tints, 16" RS wheels + kumho Z rated tires, new brakes - standard pads/rotors in the rear, brembo sport slotted rotors and akebono ceramic pads up front, and an oil cooler.

On order, I have a Mitsu Starion FMIC and StopTech steel braided brake lines, and eventually, I want to drop in a 2.5" turboback exhaust, which I will accomplish by simply replacing the wrx downpipe/midpipe in there now with a 2.5" downpipe that deletes those two cats. I'm hoping it won't be *too* loud... it's at the perfect level now.

here's a pic of the IC I bought, I'm sure it will fit, since the guy on cardomain used the same exact IC without too much trouble, I'm just hoping it won't screw with cooling by blocking the radiator too much. Dennis nixed all the AC equipment, so I'm not too worried about it.


I'll post more pics here of the car when all the work I've got on order for xmas is done. Here's a pic of the exterior now:



Some Q's for you:

Were you the original owner? Just how high did you rev it to throw a rod?

Did you swap in the RX tranny? Any idea how many miles are on it? Should I worry about it blowing up? I just wonder because of all the power going through it, and it tends to grind sometimes going into second...

The paint on this thing is pretty good for an 87'. Did you ever have it repainted?

What kinda uppipe is in there now? WRX? Stock? None? Something to look to upgrade?

Did you do that crazy rig with the MSD ignition coil, or was that Dennis? That thing has a wierd wiring rig and I took it out once and I'm not sure if I plumbed it back in correctly

I know it's just an 80's soob but it's soo much fun to drive and I love the car so much. I don't think I'll ever sell it, it's got far too much personality to go to someone who won't appreceiate it or *gasp* the junkyard!

As it stands now I drive it mainly on weekends since i've taken up the hobby of riding my bike to work, so the fact that it's not the most drivable of vehicles (no power steering, no AC, high idle due to cams, etc) doesn't matter to me.

Anyway I'll stop blabbering. my name is Manny, and it's nice to meet you Steve. Don't be surprised if I AIM you about the car soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobie Steve
WOW sweet so you bought my old XT. Man that thing has alot of history. I use to drive that to high school until the orginal engine threw a rod. It sat in my yard for a long time until my buddy Brian bought it off me for 50 bucks. He did most of the mods it has now. XT6 suspension/ interior, VF12 turbo, head porting, spider mani and TMIC, it even has my stock WRX exhaust minus the muffler. It had a rebuilt engine but Dennis blew it up, partly due to crappy aluminum and bad head bolt threads. IIRC he put a couple of engines in it. I know Dennis put some miles on it and tweaked it some.

HEHE so you like my makeshift heat sheild Its not easy fitting a tmic in that car. I know Dennis tried making an intercooler from a 2.5t Forestor work. Its not easy! Brain and me experimented with that intercooler alot and at highway speeds its VERY effective. Like you say heat from the turbo can be a problem when not moving. They do make a turbo wrap/blanket.

I have to dissagree with the FMIC be overrated. A well designed FMIC will work 10x better then the stock tmic. Flow loss through a 2 1/2 pipe is very little and can be caculated(too lazy to do). Pressure loss through the core is most importantant. The small tmic just cant provide the flow of the larger core FMIC. And anyone that says a fmic adds lag is full of it. I ran both the stock Ver 6 tmic and my HUGE fmic and could not even remotely sense any more lag. Exhaust spools the the turbo...not fmic piping. The added volume of the pipes is filled in milliseconds due do the turbos large air flow. Think of this.... if you filled your air compressor with 12psi and plumbed a 2 1/2 ball valve to say 10 feet of 2 1/2 pipe capped at the end, how long would it take to fill that pipe with air after you fully opened that valve. Alot less then halve a second. So saying a fmic adds lag is just BS
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Old 12-11-2004, 06:19 AM   #10
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I have maybe 6 ft of pipe at most and the turbo isnt stock, and it still comes on strong at the same rpm that it did before an intercooler was installed. Without a launch it comes on at about 3000rpms. 300 crank hp isnt very much. The legacy turbo running a T3/T4 setup and supporting mods was putting down 420 at the wheels with 91 octane. Also bar and plate intercoolers have far less pressure drop than tube and fin.

Thats a very nice and clean XT, probably one of the nicest i've seen. I wouldnt go front mount unless you get a fairly large turbo. I don't know how good the cooling system on the XT is but the intercooler should let enough air through and the radiator will still radiate heat regardless of airflow. The outlets for the pipes on that fmic are pointed in a manner that might give you some difficulties getting around the radiator. Good luck with your car, I'm sure it will be even nicer when your finished.

Last edited by DamienX; 12-11-2004 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 12-11-2004, 07:33 AM   #11
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Track is high speed so there is a lot of air flow for the TMIC. Like I said it's not bad for a car that spends most of the time on the street. I have the AWIC so I can thumb my nose at TMIC and FMIC I wouldn't think to change to FMIC unless I can't get enough air through it.

That is one super sweet XT. The EA turbos don't have an up pipe. it's a one piece header. If it was mine I'd just do the turbo wrap and hood scoop. Plus if XT's have overheating problems like my GL-10 did I wouldn't want anything in front of my radiator.
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Old 12-11-2004, 11:44 AM   #12
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Someone did a test on the different intercoolers with a before and after intercooler temperature test and found the laminova air to water intercooler which is more efficient than the stock subaru air to water to be less efficient than the tmic. They found the fmic to be the best, at least for their application.

It might have been a recent post on this forum.
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Old 12-14-2004, 04:54 PM   #13
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Sweet thats my old XT. The nipple on the side of the IC either went to the PCV or the IAC, im pretty sure its the IAC . I did some data logging on that IC and it worked great. Now that was in PA i think you are from FL so maybe alittle to much heat for it. I had no heat soak problems at all around here, even after lots of stop and go driving. Did Dennis do anything to fix the fuel probelms? Or did he just keep blowing up motors (jackass)
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Old 12-15-2004, 11:20 AM   #14
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Hah! It's everyone's old XT!

By the way, What fuel problems? I was following a friend driving it one day and a big spurt what looked like fuel came out of the tailpipe, so I think it runs rich. I know that the injectors in there are tiny...

I know he blew up a motor that was bored to 2.0L and then dropped in another, freshly rebuilt. It does ping sometimes at the top of third at WOT. I'm hoping FMIC will cool the charge better and allow me to go to 13 psi... it's at 11 now.

BTW, do you know if there is a cat in the uppipe like in WRX's? Ever toyed with the idea of replacing the WRX down/mid pipe with a catless downpipe? I think I'm gonna do it, just a little concerned about the noise.
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Old 12-16-2004, 02:07 PM   #15
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There is no cat in the header, but the stock header really really sucks. I made a few largetube ones a few years ago, then sold the jigs and remaining parts to Skip.

The most basic problem with the stock EA-82T header is that the passenger side exhaust pulse wants to travel to the drivers side head as much or more than it wants to go to the turbocharger. The second issue is that the header loves to break and leak exhaust. Third issue is the small pipes in some sections and not very good transitions.

I'd see if skip over at the ultimite subaru message board still makes them. Definitely a good upgrade. Much more so if you plan on using a larger IHI turbocharger.
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Old 12-18-2004, 02:40 PM   #16
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Update - after a test fit it seems like getting that FMIC in will be a royal pain in the ass. I'm not sure if the cost/benefit ratio is in my favor anymore. I'm thinking I'm going to cut my losses and sell the IC I bought, and get some turbo wrap and maybe a bigger hood scoop, and spend money on exhaust - header and downpipe
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Old 12-19-2004, 05:22 PM   #17
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Well I was the first to mod the XT. I bought it off of Steve (slim) and had it for 2 or 3 years and put about 5k miles on it. It was a true junk yard dog every part coming from a local U-pull it. Its name is POS and i loved that car but when your other cars are a M3, Mustang show car, Golf, it was the biggest POS we had. When i had it everything was wired properly with the MSD coil. The motor was bored .050MM ???over with new Factory suby pistons and rings. It had ported gen III heads, the WRX exhaust, Turbo off of the 2.2, and the spider intake. I was running 15psi with 94 octain gas and reduced timing. I had ZERO detonation and GREAT POWER. That car had killer torque and pulled hard to 6k. I think for what it was it ran very good, and dennis had a lot of kill stories with that car. When i had it it was running very lean up top but rich at idle. I told dennis when he bought it to take it home and not drive it untill he got larger injectors and a fuel pump. He didnt listen and bumped the timing up ran crap gas and street raced it all the time. The HG were blown a week or so after he bought it and he came down to my house to fix a lazy wastegate. It was detonating so bad and he coulden't here it. When he left i had it set at about 8psi because it detonated so bad and coolant was pushing out the overflow. If you have any questions just let me know.
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Old 12-22-2004, 01:13 PM   #18
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Yeah he told me that 2.0 detonated like a firecracker.

I like the paintjob you did with the heads and the spider manifold

I think the coil is still wired right, i mean, the car starts! I took it out one day and when I put it back the car wouldn't start. I had a loose ground when I rewired it, and it starts now..

I do have some wierd electrical issues - the fuse for the rear end lights blows so at night I drive around with the parking lights on. The numerical tach on LCD display kinda fizzles when it's cold out - the left most digit (thousands) doesn't work, it will like flicker on and off for a while, and the LCD for the outside temp is dead. Lights for the odo on the dash is dead. Everything else works and I'm hoping the situation won't downhill because I can live with the issues now, but suck with electrical stuff...

Anyway I'm getting a new header, as XT6Wagon suggested. TechWorks made some nice headers for a project car of theirs and a few USMB guys talked them into doing a limited production run

After driving around last night, I noticed that my intake mani and IC were both cold. I'm gonna work on insulating the turbo and stay with the TMIC. Too bad I took a hit when I bought it for like 180 and sold it for 150

Quote:
Originally Posted by BKB
Well I was the first to mod the XT. I bought it off of Steve (slim) and had it for 2 or 3 years and put about 5k miles on it. It was a true junk yard dog every part coming from a local U-pull it. Its name is POS and i loved that car but when your other cars are a M3, Mustang show car, Golf, it was the biggest POS we had. When i had it everything was wired properly with the MSD coil. The motor was bored .050MM ???over with new Factory suby pistons and rings. It had ported gen III heads, the WRX exhaust, Turbo off of the 2.2, and the spider intake. I was running 15psi with 94 octain gas and reduced timing. I had ZERO detonation and GREAT POWER. That car had killer torque and pulled hard to 6k. I think for what it was it ran very good, and dennis had a lot of kill stories with that car. When i had it it was running very lean up top but rich at idle. I told dennis when he bought it to take it home and not drive it untill he got larger injectors and a fuel pump. He didnt listen and bumped the timing up ran crap gas and street raced it all the time. The HG were blown a week or so after he bought it and he came down to my house to fix a lazy wastegate. It was detonating so bad and he coulden't here it. When he left i had it set at about 8psi because it detonated so bad and coolant was pushing out the overflow. If you have any questions just let me know.
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Old 12-22-2004, 09:46 PM   #19
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Got pictures of the header?

Also are they doing the sensible thing and making them with the WRX bolt pattern instead of the ea-82T one for the turbocharger?
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Old 12-22-2004, 11:53 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XT6Wagon
Got pictures of the header?

Also are they doing the sensible thing and making them with the WRX bolt pattern instead of the ea-82T one for the turbocharger?
IIRC, it can be ordered either way.
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Old 12-23-2004, 02:22 AM   #21
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pic of header:

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Old 12-23-2004, 02:35 PM   #22
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Hey Avatar,

This is Myxalplyx from the XT6.net boards. You probably already new this. I'm one of the folks from the USMB.net site that's going with the Techworks job. I ordered mine early on but some fabrication is taking place. I'll be using the GT17 turbo from a Saab that Tom/Keith/Jack recommended I use. They used it when they were racing. It will be used along with the Techworks header and downpipe you have in the picture.

I can't forget the ride I had in your XT turbo not to long before Dennis sold it to you. I was going to purchase his EA81-T at the time but it had a cracked windshield and failed emissions at my motor vehicle so I never bought it. I don't think Dennis was too happy about that but I think we are cool though. That XT Turbo was hella fast. Nice torque it had. It made me want an EA81T or EA82T pretty bad. So now I have an RX turbo.

I've been following this thread for a bit. After tinkering in my engine bay, I noticed that stock, the RX turbo has a 'heat shield' over the turbo. That's what I call it anyway. It's a cover that's over the turbo so I'm assuming it's there to keep the heat at bay. Maybe that's something you could consider using. The way it's setup in my RX, it's attached to a bar that's going to both strut towers. Perhaps it's not stock. I dunno, I'm teh newbay at deez tings.

I never really looked at your intercooler setup. I know you said it was over the turbo but I didn't know it actually rested on the turbo itself. That's pretty cool although it may affect functionality somewhat. How many cars you know have the turbo attached to the intercooler? I wish I could help suggestion wise with what intercooler to use. I originally thought the XT turbo had the same engine bay setup as the RX turbo does. I didn't realize it was somewhat restricted.

Good luck with whatever you end up using/trying. That is one beautiful car.

BTW: Since other peeps are showing their intercooler setups..... I'm using an intercooler from a Ludespeed Stage 2 turbokit (that I took off my OBS). Seemed to have come together ok and it stays cold/cool. Please excuse my ghetto cardboard around the intercooler. It does help guide the air to the intercooler though. The BOV hose has been fixed also (it's routed to the IAC vacuum hose...oops).



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Old 12-24-2004, 12:46 AM   #23
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Hey Kev,

Yeah, I knew it was you I've been watching the progress on your RX.

I am actually going to get some turbo insulation on the turbine, I think it would help a LOT. After feeling my car's IC and intake manifold after a drive on a 70 degree night where I was able to maintain speed, both were cold (by engine standards) to the touch.

I think heatsoak in traffic is the main problem with the setup I have now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas
Hey Avatar,

This is Myxalplyx from the XT6.net boards. You probably already new this. I'm one of the folks from the USMB.net site that's going with the Techworks job. I ordered mine early on but some fabrication is taking place. I'll be using the GT17 turbo from a Saab that Tom/Keith/Jack recommended I use. They used it when they were racing. It will be used along with the Techworks header and downpipe you have in the picture.

I can't forget the ride I had in your XT turbo not to long before Dennis sold it to you. I was going to purchase his EA81-T at the time but it had a cracked windshield and failed emissions at my motor vehicle so I never bought it. I don't think Dennis was too happy about that but I think we are cool though. That XT Turbo was hella fast. Nice torque it had. It made me want an EA81T or EA82T pretty bad. So now I have an RX turbo.

I've been following this thread for a bit. After tinkering in my engine bay, I noticed that stock, the RX turbo has a 'heat shield' over the turbo. That's what I call it anyway. It's a cover that's over the turbo so I'm assuming it's there to keep the heat at bay. Maybe that's something you could consider using. The way it's setup in my RX, it's attached to a bar that's going to both strut towers. Perhaps it's not stock. I dunno, I'm teh newbay at deez tings.

I never really looked at your intercooler setup. I know you said it was over the turbo but I didn't know it actually rested on the turbo itself. That's pretty cool although it may affect functionality somewhat. How many cars you know have the turbo attached to the intercooler? I wish I could help suggestion wise with what intercooler to use. I originally thought the XT turbo had the same engine bay setup as the RX turbo does. I didn't realize it was somewhat restricted.

Good luck with whatever you end up using/trying. That is one beautiful car.

BTW: Since other peeps are showing their intercooler setups..... I'm using an intercooler from a Ludespeed Stage 2 turbokit (that I took off my OBS). Seemed to have come together ok and it stays cold/cool. Please excuse my ghetto cardboard around the intercooler. It does help guide the air to the intercooler though. The BOV hose has been fixed also (it's routed to the IAC vacuum hose...oops).



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Old 12-24-2004, 12:57 AM   #24
Calebz
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I think heatsoak in traffic is the main problem with the setup I have now...

Living in TX, heatsoak in traffic is a real concern. An intercooler sprayer is definately helpful and fairly inexpensive to make. I have a ~40oz tank mounted behind my IC and a couple of fogger nozzles mounted on the insid of the hood scoop. It gives a nice even spray. over the top of the IC. In the cabin, it even looks somewhat stock, as I am using a stock EA82 wagon rear wiper/washer switch mounted in an empty switch blank on the dash.

All the parts can be had for under $20 from a wrecking yard and home depot.
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Old 01-07-2005, 10:19 PM   #25
EA82TRally
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pic of header:

NOW THAT IS ONE GORGEOUS LOOKING HEADER!!!
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