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Old 12-18-2004, 03:42 PM   #1
darksands
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Default Supposed 10HP from Apexi Grounding wires

So I hear that on a 05 legacy, these grounding wires give 10HP. To the wheels or at the crank I dunno but I do know that according to Excess Engineering, its been dyno proven and one of the people at a Subie dealer said he could feel the difference. Now I know people say that Subie sales people dont know anything but this guy I do trust, he teaches track driving on his spare time and write articles for car magazines. The Apexi grounding kit has some little module box and thats all I can see that seperates that from the DIY grounding mods that Ive been tempted to do.

If anyone has this kit, does it really give you more HP?
Is this kit worth the $169 (E-bay price) ?

I know that there is a difference with and without grounding wire as I have searched and read. To DIY or APEX-I???
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Old 12-18-2004, 04:01 PM   #2
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Sounds like total BS to me. Adding some grounding wires does not add HP, although it can have some benefits if the existing grounds are inadequate, corroded etc. On a new 05 I highly doubt there would be any discernable difference.
No grounding kit is worth the price considering that you can accomplish the same thing yourself for a few dollars and a trip to the electrical store.
You might want to reference this thread-
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=683474
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Old 12-18-2004, 06:45 PM   #3
GravelRash
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I'm with Mulder here; the only way a grounding system can "add" hp is if the car is down on hp for some electrical reason directly related to ground paths.

Bad/inadequate grounding can effect electrical components certainly, e.g. sensors that may not read correct values, or may not have stable readings, but these are likely to be subtle effects - like the intermittent stumble in some WRXs that fired up this whole craze among Subie owners.

Here's a potential example: the ground point on the passenger side of the WRX intake manifold grounds, among other things, shielding for some sensor leads. The shielding is there because those leads are at least potentially susceptible to induced currents from other nearby wiring that could affect the sensor reading; the shield will absorb these and dissipate them to ground. We're talking very small intermittent currents here, and any significant resistance in the ground path for the shield effectively blocks the shield from ground. At which point the shield can't fully do its job, and the induced currents might effect the sensor output. So ensuring that this point is reliably grounded is cheap insurance; there might not be a current (pun intended ) problem to solve, but a good ground - properly maintained - should eliminate potential subtle problems that might occur.

What do you think the likelihood is that an entire model of new car will have a uniform issue of this type that robs each car of 10hp? I think there are a lot of zeros in front of the number representing that percentage

Note that this discussion is completely different from the scenario of adding, say, Hella Supertone horns, or multi-bulb headlight replacements (for bugeyes). In cases like these you're exceeding the original design capacity of the stock circuits and supplying adequate ground paths (among other improvements) is a crucial upgrade. But you're not gonna lose 10hp by adding horns or lights to the stock circuits, nor are you going to gain 10hp by upgrading their wiring...
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Old 12-18-2004, 07:46 PM   #4
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It is worth doing to a new engine. It helped smooth out my idle and reduce hesitation accellerating (there were other issues, to be sure, but it helped). Do NOT buy a kit unless you just enjoy lining someone's pocket. I did the mod using a couple large ground straps from Autozone and Kragen and some wire and connectors I had sitting in my garage.
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Old 12-19-2004, 12:20 AM   #5
darksands
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Sounds good to me, Im gonna do the auto zone 10 guage DIY thing. Thanks for the info
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Old 12-19-2004, 12:35 AM   #6
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Is there a write up on the DIY?

-Matt
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Old 12-19-2004, 03:20 AM   #7
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Yes there is, a rather good one. I'm doing it this weekend

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=674153
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Old 12-19-2004, 05:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelRash
I'm with Mulder here; the only way a grounding system can "add" hp is if the car is down on hp for some electrical reason directly related to ground paths...
Thanks Gravel for being a reasonable voice of reason about this rather controversial subject and saving me a rant. It's a pretty outrageous claim the vendor is making and they should be ashamed about selling such a shady product but hey before them there was Slick 50 and then there was K&N...
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Old 12-19-2004, 07:13 PM   #9
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Ahhh...I should have waited for you to post and saved myself the time
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Old 12-19-2004, 07:19 PM   #10
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$169 for $5-10 worth of wire . Holy crap. What are they thinking? And the 10hp gain is BS too.
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Old 12-20-2004, 10:27 PM   #11
darksands
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I found this in the Parts review section

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665041
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Old 12-21-2004, 12:57 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelRash
Ahhh...I should have waited for you to post and saved myself the time
Well, I for one enjoy reading your posts on the subject, especially the 2 in here which were very informative and helpful:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...=grounding+mod
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Old 12-21-2004, 03:34 AM   #13
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Ahhh...thank you sir. (Takes modest bow... )
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Old 12-21-2004, 04:02 AM   #14
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I agree with GravelRash (in case enough people haven't already). You'll waste money better spent on worthwhile mods, add a little more weight, and clutter up the engine bay a bit more. Unless you've got some serious grounding issues (which are somewhat rare), avoid this 'mod'.
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Old 12-21-2004, 04:21 PM   #15
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or you can just buy a cheaper kit thats premade saves you alot of hassle for a lot less price

www.paranoidfabrications.com was where i got mine, cheap, fast shipping, i feel a slight difference i think it was worth it in the end to get it from him. I tried to make one myself and was just a major pain in the butt
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Old 12-21-2004, 04:37 PM   #16
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Default It's a worthwhile mod !!!

I think even for the price...My car noticably smoother. can't vouch for 10 hp gain though .However if you have 1/2 a brain..and can make a purchase of wire..you can do this yourself with the SAME benefits for about 10-20 bucks in maybe 45-60 minutes.
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Old 12-22-2004, 03:03 AM   #17
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another thumbs up for the paranoid kit. cheap, easy to do, and just as good as the hundred buck plus butt rape kits.
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:06 AM   #18
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^

lol
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:49 AM   #19
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Has anybody ever hooked up an oscilloscope and measured the differential voltages between the main ground and the parts? That would be the best way to determine the sources of noise and bad grounding.

<looks at the scope sitting on the floor> Hmm. Howzabout I do it?
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Old 12-23-2004, 12:18 AM   #20
GravelRash
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I suspect that the problem with doing that would be that each sensor would have to be tracked through its full range of measurement, over a range of ambient (sensor) temps.

Unless, of course, you have a specific running excercise that always produces a suspect symptom. Then all you have to do is measure each and every sensor while replicating the symptom...since it may be caused by the interaction of signals from >1 sensor.




We're waiting...
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Old 12-23-2004, 02:52 AM   #21
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I meant the differential and noise between a real ground (the battery terminal) and the parts, effectively measuring how well they were grounded. I didn't plan to measure each sensor...it's far too cold out for that.
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Old 12-23-2004, 10:07 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
I think even for the price...My car noticably smoother. can't vouch for 10 hp gain though .However if you have 1/2 a brain..and can make a purchase of wire..you can do this yourself with the SAME benefits for about 10-20 bucks in maybe 45-60 minutes.
If you have 1/2 a brain, grounding is not on your worries list...
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Old 12-28-2004, 01:11 AM   #23
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umm... yeah... I'm pretty sure that apexi isn't a shady company that should be ashamed of itself for lying... first of all... the apexi super grounding system does actually add 8-10 hp to your STI... this is DYNO proven.... they have no reason to lie... it wasn't apexi who did the dyno testing... and to you who think that lowering the total resistance of your electrical system doesn't help add hp then you are dead wrong. If you actually know something about electrical systems... which btw I do... I'm an EE major at UCSD...(that's Electrical Engineering....)

it's very simple.. lower total electrical resistance in your car and your engine doesn't have to to as much work by reducing load on the alternator therefore making it easier for the engine to generate power... it's very simple really... think about this... apply a heavy load to the car's electrical system while your car is idling ie. a bunch of high wattage fog lights... and the engine will kick up rpm's to compensate for the extra load placed on the alternator... this will actually rob you of hp... (this is analogous to turning on the AC which will take hp away from the engine... why?? because it places a large load on the engine... making it harder for it to turn) now if you can reduce that load by turning the lights off, then the engine won't have to work as hard to turn the alternator.... conversely if you lower the total resistance of the circuit then there will be less current drawn thereby reducing the load on the alternator making it easier for the engine to turn creating more hp... it's so simple it's ridiculous... I mean for 160$ or if you DIY for like 20$ you get 10 hp?? can you think of another mod that can get that much hp for that price that is this simple??? and oh yeah safe... (a MBC isn't a very safe way to get extra hp unless you know what you're doing-and judging by many of the responses of people in the forums I suspect that there aren't many)

I'm amazed at how many people immediately shun something that they have no clue how to either properly install or have never heard of... to all of you who have done the install and said that you haven't felt any difference.. you were either expecting way too much or didn't properly install the grounding kit... btw the apexi super ground system isn't just a grounding kit... that little metal box that you see is actually full of things like condensors and capacitors which will help smooth out the DC output of the alternator... the japanese have been installing these ground kits for many years already on their racing vehicles.... and now they are selling them to us which I am grateful for on my own wrx... it also helps the stumbling that seems to plague wrx's... and it WILL give you maybe 5-10 hp on your wrx... don't believe me?? do a dyno run first and then get a shop to install it properly and then do another dyno run... you will have more hp...I'm not saying that you have to buy the 170$ apexi one, but if you do the DIY with the cheap heavy gauge wires properly you will get rid of the stumbling and will also gain some hp...

also... the addition of the extra 10 hp has nothing to do with the sensors not having an accurate reading...although it is possible that it will help the sensors create a more reliable reading but if they were off in the first place then the car probably would have worse problems... my god... where did the incorrect sensor idea come from??? and the car does not have to be "down" 10 hp in the first place in order to get 10 hp from this kit... why do you go around bashing this product before you actually find decisive information on it, which there already is, in the form of dyno testing... try using that half of a brain that you claim to have next time

Last edited by spitfirezip100; 12-28-2004 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 12-28-2004, 03:39 PM   #24
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Wow Thats what I like to see, someone that does know what the hell they are talking about!
On the other hand, Forums are a great source only problem is that if "joe bob the post whore" or a myth is repeated enough times it seems to become fact. Thanks Spitfire aka Mythbuster for clearing that up.

Steven
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Old 12-28-2004, 06:32 PM   #25
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Just like the Sun or "Hot Inzama" Hypervolt unit and their ground wires.People don't believe these things work because its not a downpipe or a larger turbo.Adding these grounding mods is the same as adding a catback exhaust.The power was technically always there but an inferior/restrictive componant was causing lost power I.E.: poo-poo grounding system/poo-poo exhaust system
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