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Old 12-30-2004, 03:28 PM   #1
jlee8196
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Default Hydra maps to share.? and questions

I just upgrade my TMIC to FMIC.
Anyone who have vf34,sti-inj.,FMIC is willing to share there hydra map?.
Can't get hold of phil.
When Auto tune is on, how do you know it made changes? Does the cell become bold or change color?
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Old 12-31-2004, 05:33 PM   #2
lowturboboost
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Maps can't be shared (still). Each map is particularly encoded to each unit.
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Old 12-31-2004, 09:08 PM   #3
jlee8196
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Can't be download to the ECU. But
Can be veiwable... right?.
I need to use it to mod my current one.
I have the stage 4 /w stock IC map and. Seems to me the fuel map are over all too rich for FMIC.
The timing map I think is ok. I have the wideband, however the auto tune even when enable doesn't change anything to the fuel map.
Might be the software version not right with my ECU. Phil haven't sent me
the updated software version yet.
Any help would be great...
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Old 01-01-2005, 11:43 AM   #4
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1. Yes, it is viewable.
2. It may be a bit rich, true.
3. When in auto-tune, you need to save and then download to ECU, and reset to make the changes available.
4. It could be software version, but I really doubt it. Do you get an error message when you start the software?
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Old 01-01-2005, 03:05 PM   #5
BOXER28
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quick question and it is off topic, but how do you guys like the hydra and how does it compare in your opinion to the utec?? hows the driveability?
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Old 01-02-2005, 03:24 AM   #6
jlee8196
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I'm fairly new on the hydra, less than a month using it.
As far as comparing goes.. Hydra is standanlone EMS, so not the same
as XEDE, Accessport, or utec. I had the utec before I went with hydra.
I think the utec is the better piggyback IMO. Utec have very large user support, just about anyquestion on utec can be found on this forum or other likes, many tuner shop know how to tune it (worldone and pdxtuner). Also you can add stuff to make it more powerfull, like dtec, or tuna to better tune it.
Hydra and AEMs EMS are more alike from what i heard. Both have the
autotune using a wideband sensor. Which is the reason i switch, heard is a killer tool. One message I read about the AEM's software was better, probably
true, cuz hydra can only change one cell at time. But if you goto the Hydra ems forum, it's coming out a new software that changes the one cell tune and some other stuff.
The hydra cost : $1650/w wideband
the AEM ems cost : $2100/w wideband.
That's extra $450, just for the better software. too much i think.
AEM come with a basemap good for starting the car, and that pretty much it. Based on a posted message.
Hydra come with a map that is good to start doing hard pulls. Very little tuning, but pretty much PnP off the bat. Unless you have PE injectors, since all of them act different somehow, base I what I read.
So Hydra is much better, IMO. but does have it's cons.
Like much of the powerful feature is either kept secret, and locked. Why? Hydra says to kept user from doing major damage. I think otherwise.
If compare Hydra to Utec. It'll just come down to price. You can get utec on ebay for $750 or less. Have more users and turners then Hydra. but Hydra users have Phil. He is the guy you want to talk to, and buy from. At element tuning.
To me it cames down to this, driveablity. Anyone who have hydra says it's smooth and it pulls, or pushes harder. And it does. Utec have to battle the stock ECUs, and the OLF problem. As far as which one give you the most HPs on same setup..can't tell you. I don't know, probably the same I think.
So like I said. came down to the price. But I think Hydra is worth the price.
Good luck getting one fast. Wait time is a killer.
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Old 01-02-2005, 03:46 AM   #7
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Old 01-02-2005, 02:13 PM   #8
CK02WRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowturboboost
Maps can't be shared (still). Each map is particularly encoded to each unit.
I have shared maps with people that I know have bought a Hydra from Phil and they work just fine.
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Old 01-02-2005, 03:58 PM   #9
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You can absolutely share maps on the Hydra if you are willing to change every value individually (the bone head way). Or you can just swap the entire .s20 file on your laptop and download the whole thing to the ECU (a map swap). What makes Hitokiri's Excel macro so cool is the ability to split the difference and change only portions of maps or substitute a AUX map but not the main map. You open the Hydra's maps in Excel, and then you can globally replace all the values at once, or portions of values or whatever. Muchas gracias to Todd (Hitokiri) for that nifty tool.

As far as I know, only the algorithms are locked by Phil, the map values are not. I personally believe that is a prudent move on his part. You can still alter fuel and spark at will and injector pulse width. Do you really want to get into programming the A/C compensation, temperature compensation during start up and idle, figuring out the exact tenth of a degree that the Hall sensors pick up. I don't.

The Element Hydra is for Subarus and EVOs. Phil is licensed to sell in these markets, even if you buy it elsewhere. When you buy an Element Hydra you are betting that Phil has done his homework and gotten the myriad of details down and the thing will work on your car. No other standalone unit comes with that level of tuning experience out of the box. Like Apple computers, Phil will make money selling the hardware, but it is the programming of the basic software that you are buying. Phil could have picked AEM, Motec, Haltec, TEC3, Mototronic......, but he didn't. He picked the Hydra.

I think you will see a great deal more Hydra users very soon and lots of community support. It's a nascent community, but it will come with time and with more units in users hands. I'm working on a water injection table that references boost and RPM and load. I'll share that as widely as possible. I'd like to hook it to the "launch map" or the "anti-lag map" and have the Hydra default to base fuel-spark tables if a fault is detected in the WI system. So while lableled "launch map" in the software it will in fact be my "With WI map". I'd share that too.

For me the Hydra is all about flexibility. You can control more with it than just the stock functions (EcuTek). You can use MAP instead of MAF which opens all sorts of doors for humongous turbo set ups (not UTEC). There is no fighting with the stock ECU (piggy-back syndrome). You can have closed loop tuning as far as you want into the TPS signal (unlike piggy backs). You can use the Hydra's own optimization algorithm (autotune) to clean up your tuning so that no knock occurs and transitions are very smooth. You can run this autotune feature continuously for added assurance that the knock-correction is working well. You can change individual cylinder injector controls to squeeze the most out of each revolution, instead of tuning to the least common denominator (i.e. the cylinder most prone to knock). And the list goes on and on.

As to the request to share a map that the originator of this thread posted, I have some advice. Back your fuel off half a point and target one degree less timing, now download that revised map and run autotune for a few hard pulls in third or fourth gear. After some good hard runs, log your data and look for knock. If the autotune has done it's job, you should get no knock after a few good runs. Now, upload the "autotuned" map to your laptop, save it, and download it into the ECU. Repeat as necessary. You presumably bought the Hydra so you can tune your own car--just do it!!!!

ps take only small steps, as small as you are comfortable with, using a dyno to measure progress and not just pulling fuel and spark is the best way to get feedback on how you are doing, but for an FMIC a few tweaks to fuel and spark should get you pretty close.
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Old 01-02-2005, 04:06 PM   #10
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jlee8196 - go to the hydra site, and read the tuner primers there:

http://elementtuning.com/technical/e...ningguide1.htm

http://elementtuning.com/technical/e...ningguide2.htm

The second one walks you through the steps to use autotune.

Personally, I wouldn't use somebody elses map. Start with his safe map that you are currently using, and tune from there. Use the logger on the unit, and have at it... its VERY good at telling you exactly which cell you're in. If you just want to use the autotune to tune it, then change the target A/F in those areas, do some pulls, save the map... download it to the ecu and relog, see how it does. When logging, I like to turn the autotune feature off, it makes it much easier to see the progress you're making.

Personally, I think the autotune is great for see what you need to do, but after its done you HAVE to go back and smooth stuff out. Use the 3d chart, make sure you don't have huge jumps (anything more than about .8ms) between cells, stuff like that.
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Old 01-02-2005, 04:44 PM   #11
jlee8196
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thanks bboy. I know by logging that i'm runing rich, and I'm able to mod the fuel step by step.
I just wasn't sure on the spark timing map. I don't know how to tell timing is off.
I looked at other map from utec stage4 fmic. Mine seem very close to it.
Phil message me about no fmic map for my step up yet.
I'm still runing rich but less than before compare to what the AFR map.
Also I have my wideband at stock rear, which is after the hi flow turboxs cat.
How does that effect the reading. From what other says, it's very little effect. slightly torws the lean side.
Anyword on that whould help.

I agree with bboy on the hydra's support has from element tuning.
I think if you compare all the standalone .. on paper they don't see very different, in terms of hardware. All have power processer than you need. Software is just about the same, let you fine tunes as much as you need.
What make Hydra much better is the support, which can't really be seen on paper. All the idling, and what nots have already been done. All you need worry about is the performance part of turning. even that is very little work, since the map in it is very good already.
Phil already been helping me on the software version issues, it's somewhat different then before.

Last edited by jlee8196; 01-02-2005 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 01-03-2005, 05:10 PM   #12
jlee8196
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Why is the AFR so lean (17) at 760mmHg from 3.6k-8K rpm?
I also notice that right after high load (10psi+) when TPS is back from 50%+ to 0% that the AFR is extremely rich (10.1) is that normal?
When I turn on the autotune and after some runs, and logs. The fuel map hasn't been changed at all, But the AFR logs richer then the taget map. So i would think change by auto tune should be made.
If my air temp is 20C. And on the air temp trim map says 2.1% enrich. How would that play into the AFR reading. Like if target is 11.1AFR at (X,Y)cell. How much richer should the reading be? (10.9)?
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Old 01-03-2005, 06:40 PM   #13
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The autotune takes effect as the ecu changes it's own fuel map. To see the results, you need to upload this map when you are idling after an autotune session. Turn the engine off and you will lose this map. Save the uploaded map (after smoothing if necessary) then download for a complete result.

Note you must have the nemesis software attached and running or the autotune won't work.
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Old 01-03-2005, 08:05 PM   #14
bboy
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I would not change Phil's map to much and just make slow changes to the AFR, and slightly to timing. Your timing is not likely to change a whole lot once you subtract fuel and get the AFR back in line with what it was pre-FMIC.

Like Agnes says you need to save the changes, and you need to download it into the ECU. If you are seeing no changes, autotune is probably not on. Read Phil's doc, don't shut off the engine, upload the "autotuned" file and save, download it back into the ECU.

An AFR of 17 seems pretty high, but a lot depends on your wideband O2 sensor's calibation (which can be off). The reason to keep AFR high all the way to atmospheric pressure (760 mm Hg) is to produce nice hot gas to spool the turbo up. Once you are producing boost, you will need to lower AFR for knock and power.

When you suddenly take your foot off the throttle and throttle plate slams shut, your AFR will briefly run rich since you shut the air supply off.

You don't "play with" AFR directly as a ratio. You can adjust the fuel map at a given "load" and this will have an effect on the oxygen's sensors read out of AFR. Some O2 sensors read AFR, some read in "lambda", but they all just measure the O2 level present in the exhaust. Theoretically there is no O2 at an AFR of 14.7 (your results may vary).

I would not touch the temperature trim. Cold air is denser, that means more oxygen, so more fuel is appropriate.

Go slow with this. Knock detection is your only tool right now for tuning unless you have an EGT guage. With the FMIC you should be able to lean fuel out some (not a ton) without generating knock. The leaner fuel will give you more power up to around 12.5-13:1 AFR. Chances are that Phil built some slop into the tune, so you will need to do this too. If push lean out the fuel and eventually do ride on the knock correction, adding a bit back in for safety is a good idea. Talk to Phil about how much he recommends (a few percent is an estimate).

A baseline dyno run would be helpful to measure your gains, consider one of those.
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Old 01-03-2005, 10:10 PM   #15
jlee8196
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I recorded some knock ret. on logs.
However they are less then 1, like 0.6 knock ret. and .0 on the . should I be concerned with that small knocks? or that's not small
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:31 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlee8196
Why is the AFR so lean (17) at 760mmHg from 3.6k-8K rpm?
That is the decel portion of the fuel map. Look at 760mmHg in that rpm range of the AFR target map and see what its set to. 17-15 in the decel portion is normal but I don't recall what it is set to in that rpm range. You could turn on the decel fuel cut and it would cut fuel in those areas. I use the decel fuel cut but have noticed some back firing(on decel) after refueling but only for about ten miles. It might be related to something else but it only does it with the decel fuel cut enabled.
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