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Old 02-16-2005, 02:03 AM   #26
tora
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patr
therein is the issue: thats a bad assumption to follow for the pulleys anyhow. each pound how far from the axis etc. etc. its inflated. That being said I want one, not for HP, but for bling factor.
I'm saving this statement to use at a later date. Maybe next time your car needs a wash!
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Old 02-16-2005, 12:04 PM   #27
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I agree with the comment that it is definately inflated; but an exaggeration is sometimes easier to understand.
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Old 02-16-2005, 01:05 PM   #28
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pretty much you have to take the disc mass calculation for the given size (and to keep it simple assume its a consistent density), check the difference of 4lbs... (but are THESE ONES 4lbs lighter) and you get something which is ... ~0 . I'm lazy but I'd post the math... I'm sure andy can.

Its like when we get guys ordering $800 of exhaust parts when they would get more oomph out of a flash... it makes no sense mon.
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Old 02-16-2005, 01:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patr
pretty much you have to take the disc mass calculation for the given size (and to keep it simple assume its a consistent density), check the difference of 4lbs... (but are THESE ONES 4lbs lighter) and you get something which is ... ~0 . I'm lazy but I'd post the math... I'm sure andy can.

Its like when we get guys ordering $800 of exhaust parts when they would get more oomph out of a flash... it makes no sense mon.
nuh uh...

Flash w/o exhaust is "oomph"

$800 worth of exhaust -- then you get a flash is "OOOOOOMMPPH"


* but I'll keep my moaning to myself.
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Old 02-16-2005, 02:11 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patr
pretty much you have to take the disc mass calculation for the given size (and to keep it simple assume its a consistent density), check the difference of 4lbs... (but are THESE ONES 4lbs lighter) and you get something which is ... ~0 . I'm lazy but I'd post the math... I'm sure andy can.

Its like when we get guys ordering $800 of exhaust parts when they would get more oomph out of a flash... it makes no sense mon.
With a 4lb reduction the math says it's about 1hp but ONLY when you are accellerating the crank very rapidly. Like ONLY in 1st gear. Again, they pulley will give significantly less gains as the gears roll on. Hardly seems worth the effort unless you lost your oem pulley on the highway.... like I have. tee hee.

I don't know why you would possibly doubt Pat about the flash vs the exhaust. That's weird. He's been there a zillion times.
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Old 02-16-2005, 04:20 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andys
With a 4lb reduction the math says it's about 1hp but ONLY when you are accellerating the crank very rapidly. Like ONLY in 1st gear. Again, they pulley will give significantly less gains as the gears roll on. Hardly seems worth the effort unless you lost your oem pulley on the highway.... like I have. tee hee.

I don't know why you would possibly doubt Pat about the flash vs the exhaust. That's weird. He's been there a zillion times.

What are you talking about now? Re-read my post.
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Old 02-16-2005, 04:23 PM   #32
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Ya I have no idea what to expect for HP gains, it wont be like slapping a GT25 on or any thing, but I think it should help the car pull a bit better, better throttle response
and look dam sexy while doing it. Iím not sure how the other companyís that make these things came up with their HP figures whether it is a calculation or dyno proven.
I would love to test them out on a dyno and know for sure.

Either way this is a good tech discussion....keep it coming guys

cheers...4WF
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Old 02-16-2005, 04:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy_Days
What are you talking about now? Re-read my post.
oh yeah - sorry about that. Looks like I can't read.
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Old 02-18-2005, 04:21 AM   #34
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hehe the pulley give the appearance of better throttle response... mostly its cuz you do get better throttle response... but with no load on the motor (ie listen to me rev it baby) !

I'll take one to our next dyno run if someone has the urge to actually pull the pulley while we are there... i cant see anyone I know actually willing to do it... but I will try :-)

exhaust vs. flash as first step, flash wins every time

flash + simple exhaust (UP/DP) beats everything you can do (i.e. turbo, injectors, TMIC etc etc etc etc) if you do them with no flash at all
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Old 02-18-2005, 04:24 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patr
hehe the pulley give the appearance of better throttle response... mostly its cuz you do get better throttle response... but with no load on the motor (ie listen to me rev it baby) !

I'll take one to our next dyno run if someone has the urge to actually pull the pulley while we are there... i cant see anyone I know actually willing to do it... but I will try :-)

exhaust vs. flash as first step, flash wins every time

flash + simple exhaust (UP/DP) beats everything you can do (i.e. turbo, injectors, TMIC etc etc etc etc) if you do them with no flash at all
oh but of course -- hardware w/o software in the end is not as good.
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Old 02-18-2005, 06:19 AM   #36
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vishnu dynoed their pulley to gain 7whp.... assuming that they really dynoed the car with the addition of a pulley.... there you have the fact ....

but to be honest I didnt feel any difference... even after installing my pulley and my IC hose at the same time .... I'm so insensitive
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:28 PM   #37
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yeah, that is 'fact' all right, gives you an idea of who you can trust
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:42 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patr
yeah, that is 'fact' all right, gives you an idea of who you can trust

"if you think that is 'fact' you got some issues man"


??
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Old 02-18-2005, 04:09 PM   #39
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I can honestly say I can't tell the difference between a 165hp and a 200hp car. Thats a 35hp difference. If anybody can feel a 5hp difference, I'd be VERY surprised.
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Old 02-18-2005, 04:53 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fukamoto
I can honestly say I can't tell the difference between a 165hp and a 200hp car. Thats a 35hp difference. If anybody can feel a 5hp difference, I'd be VERY surprised.
This is what I'm saying. If you ain't getting a 10% improvement in power they why bother spending any time or money? It seems to be that there is a crap load of smoke and mirrors in this 'hobby' mostly due to a general abundance of technical ignorange - witch is ironic seeing has it's a completely technical persuit - ie. let's make more power.

As for Vishnu getting 7 whp - well it's already been made clear that without specifying other parameters that number is meaningless - not to mention suspect. You simply can't define any power gains due to pully modifications without first specifying the angular acceleration of the pulley. Anyone who fails to include this number is only really communicating the fact that they probably don't know what they are doing.

Maybe we should put together some technical workshops that cover (and specifically that cover the porper vocabulary):

-what is power and torque and how does it mean to you?
-makin more power: the basics
-fuel injection and mapping: how does this crap work and what does it mean
-exhaust: how flow do you go?
-diffs: how they work and what they can do for you. (The next time I hear --someone using 50:50 torque split to describe a locked diff I'm going to puke. -It's insane.)
-turbos: I'd sure like to know more about turbos. Big, small, lag times, I just don't get them.

What you think Pat? Time to put on some Rocket Rally Technical Workshops?
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Old 02-18-2005, 05:00 PM   #41
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Patr, when they are ready ,I would be more than happy to give you a set to test on the dyno ,that would be cool

cheers...4WF
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Old 02-18-2005, 06:02 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andys
This is what I'm saying. If you ain't getting a 10% improvement in power they why bother spending any time or money? It seems to be that there is a crap load of smoke and mirrors in this 'hobby' mostly due to a general abundance of technical ignorange - witch is ironic seeing has it's a completely technical persuit - ie. let's make more power.

As for Vishnu getting 7 whp - well it's already been made clear that without specifying other parameters that number is meaningless - not to mention suspect. You simply can't define any power gains due to pully modifications without first specifying the angular acceleration of the pulley. Anyone who fails to include this number is only really communicating the fact that they probably don't know what they are doing.

Maybe we should put together some technical workshops that cover (and specifically that cover the porper vocabulary):
I only care about going faster.... a pulley only give that small amount of gain or shall I say release more power output... but for that price, I'd do it... even tho small, it still gives more power...

why care about technical explanation when a dyno graph is enough to picture the kind of gain you would expect from a pulley...

if a guy say that he beat his friends just bcoz he added pulley to his car, he's halucinating...

if a pulley is that useless, no one would buy it.... and the fact is...lots of ppl have it.. at least within the NASIOC.. why? its one of the cheap mod you can do

for me its all about the total power my car has
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Old 02-18-2005, 06:20 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andys
This is what I'm saying. If you ain't getting a 10% improvement in power they why bother spending any time or money? It seems to be that there is a crap load of smoke and mirrors in this 'hobby' mostly due to a general abundance of technical ignorange - witch is ironic seeing has it's a completely technical persuit - ie. let's make more power.
With a N/A RS/TS at 165hp, its going to be hard to get more than 10% increase of power without throwing serious money into the pot. Equal length headers, catback exhaust with a resonator, intake will only yield 20hp at most. And almost everybody I know runs Borla headers which are only there for sounds,not for horsepower. Cobb has a setup for 2.5RS' to hit 220hp N/A but that kit costs $10,000.

To gain 10% = 16.5hp is hard because yoju will hvae to spend at or around $2000 for parts.

A pulley has been "dyno proven", and whatever, if you can feel the power, or if its a placebo effect, who cares. Its you thats driving, if you feel it, its worth it. Rather than spending $2000 for 16.5hp, why not throw in $100 or so and give it a shot?
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Old 02-18-2005, 06:27 PM   #44
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I know the mazda 323 GTXs had small crank pulley imbalance problem and over time all the engine cranks fatigued and craked. If it ain't broken.......
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Old 02-18-2005, 06:43 PM   #45
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If you use the "if it ain't broken" mentality there would be no aftermarket products available on the market. Nobody replaces parts on their car because its busted..

Me: Damnit, my exhaust cracked in half. Let me buy a catback exhaust from Greddy.
Me: Oh no, my TMIC has a small chip on it, let me buy a FMIC.

People don't mod cars because its broken; people realize cars break after its modded.

Damn, thats a freakin great line. I should signature that!
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Old 02-18-2005, 07:00 PM   #46
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Derk that's not really true, I think ANDYS point is that if it ain't broken, or isn't a noticeable improvement why put another part on there. Often the OEM part is far superior to the aftermarket part asides from not looking BLINGY enough. My exhaust rusted out so I custom made one, My suspension was high and soft and IMO BROKEN because it sucked so I replaced it with better stuff....
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Old 02-18-2005, 07:16 PM   #47
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Thats true. But noticeable improvements are subjective; there is no line to it. I could have driven your shaggin wagon and say, wow, this suspension is great and better than what I ever need on my car. OEM parts are always superior to aftermarket, well, fitment and build quality at least.
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Old 02-18-2005, 08:10 PM   #48
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great debating - but ultimately: Don't like it, no buy it.
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