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Old 07-20-2005, 08:55 AM   #101
1 Lucky Texan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vapore0n
air tumbling behind the car.

Id like to take a ride in a 06 in the rain. See how the new mini spoiler affects air flow. In the 05 model, air is tumbling in the rear windshield/trunk area. Easy to see when there is rain.

Also, all asumptions here on how much the wing works seem to be for a solid wing. The wing we have bounces and flexes. Frequency that it flexes seems to increase as speed is increased, making the wing more stable (or at least look like it is)
As aircraft advanced, one reason cables were abandoned in favor of struts was the drag caused by the cables vibrating in the airflow. IIRC a vibrating cable has 3 times the drag of a 'stationary' strut the same size. If you're saying the wing is constantly vibrating (as opposed to an occasional bounce) then it is supplying increased drag. This may be part of it stabilizing effect though.

this is an interesting thread.

Carl
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Old 07-20-2005, 09:01 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vapore0n
a friend of mine had asked me about the wing. I told him its functional. He asked for proof since he claimed it was for show (rice). So I decided to ask the all knowing Nasioc population, see if there is some real data around, not just some people saying "yes its functional"
Ahhh... So you're planning on winning an argument with "the Internet says it's true!"

Anders
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Old 07-20-2005, 09:16 AM   #103
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What you guys seem to be missing is that the top foil of the wing IS NOT THERE FOR DOWNFORCE. The lower portion is where the downforce comes from. The top portion is more there to smooth airflow over and off the car, and help the lower portion do its job. I mean its been said, but it keeps getting blown off. I talked to my buddy, who's brother is an aerospace engineer of some sort (doing what, I dont know, but he would obviously have at least a lot more of an educated guess than 99% of us would) and he said that his brother is looking at buying an STI, and from what he can tell eyeballing the wing, things are exactly as I said above. The top foil is there for air flow smoothing/directing, and the lower portion is there for the downforce. He said its not going to be huge downforce, but that it IS in fact definately functional, in that it definately provides some downforce. Is it enough to be effective and make a difference? Who knows, but he said it 100% is effective.
He also said that if he buys one, its going in the wind tunnel at the place where he works Lets all cross our fingers.

Last edited by Davenow; 07-20-2005 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:50 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vapore0n
air tumbling behind the car.

Id like to take a ride in a 06 in the rain. See how the new mini spoiler affects air flow. In the 05 model, air is tumbling in the rear windshield/trunk area. Easy to see when there is rain.

Also, all asumptions here on how much the wing works seem to be for a solid wing. The wing we have bounces and flexes. Frequency that it flexes seems to increase as speed is increased, making the wing more stable (or at least look like it is)
I'm curious about that too cause we all know that in the current models that the airflow does seperate about a 1/4 of the way down the rear window. It'll be interesting to see how much that diverter really does.

Like I said before, the biggest thing that interest me is how the wind is hitting the entire assembly. The wing gets the cleaner air but how much the spoiler sees would be interesting since the spoiler is making the majority of the downforce.
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:58 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumper23
I'm curious about that too cause we all know that in the current models that the airflow does seperate about a 1/4 of the way down the rear window. It'll be interesting to see how much that diverter really does.

Like I said before, the biggest thing that interest me is how the wind is hitting the entire assembly. The wing gets the cleaner air but how much the spoiler sees would be interesting since the spoiler is making the majority of the downforce.
I think there must be some consideration of any negative effects a cross wind might have on the rear 'assembly' too.

Carl
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Old 07-20-2005, 12:16 PM   #106
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Here are the facts.

1. The WRC spoiler/wing is functional.
2. If Subaru wanted the ultimate in functionality they would have duplicated it for the production STi (maybe with slight changes for cost/driving situation differences).
3. It is impossible for the production spoiler/wing to be non-functional.
4. It is impossible for the production spoiler/wing to duplicate the functionality of the WRC spoiler/wing.

Tell your friend that by virtue of the facts, the spoiler/wing is functional to some extent, but to exactly what extent is up to some debate pending wind-tunnel results.
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Old 07-20-2005, 12:45 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateLurker
Here are the facts.

1. The WRC spoiler/wing is functional.
2. If Subaru wanted the ultimate in functionality they would have duplicated it for the production STi (maybe with slight changes for cost/driving situation differences).
3. It is impossible for the production spoiler/wing to be non-functional.
4. It is impossible for the production spoiler/wing to duplicate the functionality of the WRC spoiler/wing.

Tell your friend that by virtue of the facts, the spoiler/wing is functional to some extent, but to exactly what extent is up to some debate pending wind-tunnel results.
that sounds like it in a nutshell
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Old 07-20-2005, 12:50 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateLurker
Here are the facts.

1. The WRC spoiler/wing is functional.
2. If Subaru wanted the ultimate in functionality they would have duplicated it for the production STi (maybe with slight changes for cost/driving situation differences).
3. It is impossible for the production spoiler/wing to be non-functional.
4. It is impossible for the production spoiler/wing to duplicate the functionality of the WRC spoiler/wing.

Tell your friend that by virtue of the facts, the spoiler/wing is functional to some extent, but to exactly what extent is up to some debate pending wind-tunnel results.

#3 is a fairly bold statement. may be true - still, gutsy.

Also, could there be a detrimental effect from the rear 'spoiler' assembly at speed in a crosswind? (I recall mercedes at one time -maybe they still do - tested some cars on a track with huge fans creating 50mph crosswinds - I wonder if that could get a little squirrelly in an STI at 130mph+ ?)

Carl
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Old 07-20-2005, 12:56 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Lucky Texan
#3 is a fairly bold statement. may be true - still, gutsy.

Also, could there be a detrimental effect from the rear 'spoiler' assembly at speed in a crosswind? (I recall mercedes at one time -maybe they still do - tested some cars on a track with huge fans creating 50mph crosswinds - I wonder if that could get a little squirrelly in an STI at 130mph+ ?)

Carl
I would say the side of the car would be more of the problem than maybe the 2 sq. feet of vertical stabs
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Old 07-20-2005, 03:28 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Lucky Texan
#3 is a fairly bold statement. may be true - still, gutsy.
I only meant that Subaru probably didn't go through the trouble of engineering the Spoiler/Wing to be "invisible", and that there would be no merit in doing such anyway. I do, however, believe that the STi Spoiler/Wing design was governed by aesthetics, as opposed to aerodynamics.
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Old 07-20-2005, 04:06 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vapore0n

The wing we have bounces and flexes. Frequency that it flexes seems to increase as speed is increased, making the wing more stable (or at least look like it is)
That's right but the wrong words, the wing is flappin just like a birds wings, that's why the STI will fly.
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Old 07-20-2005, 04:27 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vapore0n
I'd like to take a ride in a 06 in the rain. See how the new mini spoiler affects air flow. In the 05 model, air is tumbling in the rear windshield/trunk area. Easy to see when there is rain.
Yep, that would be interesting.

I've noticed in my '04 STi that rain streak pattern on my rear windscreen remained the same either with the wing or without. Clearly the wing doesn't have much influence on the flowfield upstream.

I'd be very curious to know how the '06 roof spoiler affects the whole thing. Seems like channeling the flow down the rear windscreen would actually increase the lift on the car by helping the flow stay attached and less turbulent.

Based on the streaks on my rear windscreen (yeah, I know I gotta wash it, but it's cheap flow vis!), the flow over the roof flows outward as it flows down the windscreen. It leaves a very discernable pattern. Makes it look as though the downwash is wrapping up around the rear quarterpanels rather than flowing over the wing.

Another interesting observation (that has been brought up before) is that the dirt/grime that collects on the vertical portion of the trunk lid didn't really change when I swapped to the regular WRX spoiler. I would have expected some differences in the pattern between the lower portion of the STi wing and the offset WRX "whale-tail" spoiler.

-Michael
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Old 09-29-2005, 02:37 AM   #113
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Question with regards to wings in general:

If the wing is longer than that of the car's width, what is it's supposed to be effect?

The STi wing is approx 4++ft, but there are some wings offered that are over 5

Oh, and this one too:

http://www.srbpower.com/gpsports/chokets.php

Any truth to those claims by Chokets?

Thanks
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Old 09-29-2005, 03:40 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f4phantomii
Yep, that would be interesting.

I've noticed in my '04 STi that rain streak pattern on my rear windscreen remained the same either with the wing or without. Clearly the wing doesn't have much influence on the flowfield upstream.

I'd be very curious to know how the '06 roof spoiler affects the whole thing. Seems like channeling the flow down the rear windscreen would actually increase the lift on the car by helping the flow stay attached and less turbulent.

Based on the streaks on my rear windscreen (yeah, I know I gotta wash it, but it's cheap flow vis!), the flow over the roof flows outward as it flows down the windscreen. It leaves a very discernable pattern. Makes it look as though the downwash is wrapping up around the rear quarterpanels rather than flowing over the wing.

Another interesting observation (that has been brought up before) is that the dirt/grime that collects on the vertical portion of the trunk lid didn't really change when I swapped to the regular WRX spoiler. I would have expected some differences in the pattern between the lower portion of the STi wing and the offset WRX "whale-tail" spoiler.

-Michael
the roof spoiler is there to stablize the air coming off the roof and direct it to the lower portion of the wing.


turbulent air has less pressure than stable air.
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Old 09-29-2005, 10:21 AM   #115
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The link has been posted. Maybe some text will help

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/arch.../t-398276.html
Quote:
STi Wing FAQ

Q. I don't like the STi wing. It's too <insert various opinions>. I'd like to remove it. Should I?

A. Sure. It's your car, your property. You can do anything you like with it, and better yet, you don't really have to ask anybody else if it's ok. My cousin used to throw hatchets at his car door to see if it would stick. I didn't think it was a good idea, but it's his ride.

Q. The Reason is because I think it's just a bling-bling wing that's only there to make it look ricey. There is no way it could have any actual handling benefits because it's the <insert various opinions here>.

A. Wrong. I won't dazzle you with various theories and diagrams. Simply enough, I have driven a STi 8 Spec C RA and Standard back to back around the same track for several laps. On the same day, several other professional drivers, up to and including race drivers, noticed exactly the same thing. The STi with the wing was significantly more stable in high-speed corners than the STi RA without the wing (it had the small WRX turbo wing instead). The STi RA is indeed faster around the course, but that was because it was some 300 odd lbs lighter, especially up top, and it had a better turbo. If the RA had the aero, it would have been faster yet.

Q. I took the wing off my car, and driving fast around corners/twisties, it felt very stable.

A. The answer to this is real easy. You weren't driving very fast. You felt like you were driving fast. You may indeed had been driving at your limits. You were, however, not driving at the car's limits. Don't feel bad, very few of us can. That's why most of us pay to drive cars, instead of being paid to drive a car. Also, you didn't drive the car at it's limits with the wing and then without, on the same day in the twisties.

The STi is not going to go off the road backwards simply because the wing is removed. The difference in handling can be summed up this way: With the wing, you are driving on a dry road. Without the wing, you are driving on a slightly wet road. You have nearly the same traction, but there is an extra 1 or 2% available with the wing than without.

Q. That really doesn't sound like much.

A. In racing, that's the difference between winning and losing.

Q. But I don't race around road courses.

A. Most STi owners won't. However, the STi was designed specifically for road course racing and rally racing. It was not designed to be a boulevard cruiser like the M3. You don't need those big brembo brakes, the heavy duty suspension, the oil cooler and all the other heavy duty components for street driving. They are there for one purpose, and one purpose only. Racing. That may not be the purpose that you bought it for, but I assure you, from the very top of STi down, that was their intention for it.
Quote:
Q: So are you saying that if you don't drive the car to its limits (or simply don't have the ability too, the wing is little more than decoration for boulevard bashing?

A. Correct. However, at this point, the brakes, wheels, rubber, inverted struts, DCCD, lightweight glass, ARB's, and a host of other parts are little more than decoration also. A WRX turbo with some select investment in power-up goodies is a wiser investment.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com
It's a good read. But people will probably argue anyway
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Old 09-29-2005, 11:05 AM   #116
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^ makes me feel good i have the STi wing =)
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Old 09-29-2005, 11:55 AM   #117
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How long will this debate go on?

I had an '04 WRX, dropped with nice sticky 17's and STi side splitters on it.

Now I have an '05 STi.

The STi is MUCH, MUCH more planted on the ground - especially in high speed cornering, crosswinds etc. I can notice from about 70MPH on, a huge difference over my WRX. Period. That's all the science I need.

O wait...maybe it's the bigger scoop helping to stabilize the car at high speed.

Geez I'm sick of this debate.
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Old 09-29-2005, 12:25 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy
How long will this debate go on?

.

For evar!!!
This IS the intarweb ya know.
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Old 09-29-2005, 01:26 PM   #119
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As long as apples & oranges exist, people will find ways to justify the fashionable STi wing. =)
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Old 09-29-2005, 01:45 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Lucky Texan
...detrimental effect from the rear 'spoiler' assembly at speed in a crosswind?
YES!
EVERYONE GO WINGLESS!!!
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Old 09-29-2005, 01:47 PM   #121
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Does anyone have any feedback regarding the new upper STi spoiler at the top of the rear window?
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Old 09-30-2005, 11:54 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waywayway
Question with regards to wings in general:

If the wing is longer than that of the car's width, what is it's supposed to be effect?

The STi wing is approx 4++ft, but there are some wings offered that are over 5

Oh, and this one too:

http://www.srbpower.com/gpsports/chokets.php

Any truth to those claims by Chokets?

Thanks
The lift or downforce of a wing is directly related to the area of the wing (width x lengths). Long narrow wings (think glider) have a higher lift (or downforce) to drag ratio (i.e. are more efficient) than stubby wings. Also, wings in free air flow are going to work better than those in the shadow/turbulace of the body, thus that outside part of the wing would be more effective. So as Pontiac says, "wider is better", but you don't want your wing to stick out so far that it hits mail boxes or parked cars as you drive by. Note that many GT race cars have wings that stick out beyond the body.

The Chokets claim of contolled flex to reduce drag at high speed is theoretically possible (and desirable), but its likely just a marketing ploy to justify them using a cheaper material (plastic instead of carbon fiber).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikerdude
Does anyone have any feedback regarding the new upper STi spoiler at the top of the rear window?
A more important question is does the '06 wing flex and vibrate at 60mph like the '04-05 wing?
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Old 09-30-2005, 02:55 PM   #123
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Mucho thanks for the info It's exactly the answer I wanted to hear
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Old 09-30-2005, 03:24 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grintch
The predicted downforce neglects the fact that the wing material (ABS?) is too soft, so it flexes under load. I would expect this to "absorb" a lot of the predicted downforce. [...]
No. The wing is connected to the car. Any force put on the wing will be transmitted to the car.

There's no way the force can be "absorbed."
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Old 09-30-2005, 05:48 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneStockTS
No. The wing is connected to the car. Any force put on the wing will be transmitted to the car.

There's no way the force can be "absorbed."
You are right in that "absorbed" is the wrong term, but flex would prevent the maxium amount of possible force being transmitted to the car and therefore to the tires. Energy would be lost in heat and nosie in the flexing. The stiffer the wing and it's connection to the car the better that force is transmitted.
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