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Old 01-14-2005, 05:50 PM   #1
wgknestrick
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Default Need Help Putting together a Hydra Tuning Guide

I know Phil has some information so far along with MR2controls website, but nothing near this complete that I have seen. I would like to add a ton of small screen captures, variable ranges for the different Subarus, ie RS, WRX, STI and edit the contained information as pertained to the Subaru application.

Hopefully Phil can spare some time to lend a free hand, as this guide should be able to help us all.

Here is what I have so far:

http://users.rcn.com/wgknestrick/Hyd...structions.doc

I've taken most of it from MR2 controls website and am looking to adapt what is there as it pertains to our Subarus. You can see about where I left off with the formating, but feel free to edit this and make changes where you see fit. I will try to keep this updated, I just ask that you make your changes in a different color font so that it is easy for me to add them.

You can email me your changes at wgknestrick@rcn.com

Let me know what you think.

Bill
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Old 01-14-2005, 08:00 PM   #2
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Bill admirable stab. You have a ton of information here. I'd love to work on it with you, but how do want to proceed? It needs structure to be really useful, and since Phil has done so much already, lots of the MR2 "scratch set up" info can moved to end of the file or placed in an appendix. You need a Table of Contents that has a certain logic to it. Here is a suggested organization.

Installation I'd start with this like Phil has. Included is idle adjustment and TPS calibration. Optional WB install directions.

Data Logging Is the next logical step, since you won't be adusting fuel and spark in the dark. How do you set that up. What are the units of the values.

ECU Logic I'd put here how the Hydra references sensors, map values, then computes, and then sends voltage to outputs. You can go through the basic ones of fuel, spark, boost, launch control, and antilag. The idea is to give the Hydra owner a sense of how the box does its job. I'd leave knock correction, temperature enrichment, A/C and the over "environmental" adjustments to a "chapter" at the end. You won't be touching these most likely, so bury them.

Tuning Here you go into how to change values, measure outcomes, use the "autotune" feature. Phil has a pretty good stab at this. Very nuts and bolts how to chapter.

Refinement Tuning Since you are starting with a very good map from Phil, you/we/us are not going to develop maps from scratch. I'd put tuning theory in here and how to specifically interpret measured outcomes of fuel and spark changes--specifically WB O2 readings and EGT. Also in here the effects that additions/changes of various common modifications have, and how to tune to optimize for those new mods.

Hydra Calibration and Troubleshooting Guide Specific issues that a typical user might have. Idle issues--maybe somebody puts in new cams and the idle now sucks--they want to remap the whole idle control system. Boost control issues and Knock Correction. New injectors issues--impedence, dwell, pulse-width. This will be a chapter you don't want to read unless you need to.

Special Topics Shameless plug here. I'd like to do water injection. A chapter on how to wire, plumb, and tune with WI would be great. You could also do Water Spray Controller, NOS, Individual Injector Tuning, .......

Appendix Put here all those descriptions of the various PWMs, and which sensors and PWMs various "PWM maps" use. A wiring diagram might be useful.

Let me know how much, what, you want. You have my email or you can always PM.
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Old 01-14-2005, 08:03 PM   #3
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ps

My Element Hydra for the DBW STI arrive today at 2:30 PM. Now to get the injectors in so I can do the install. Very happy.
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Old 01-15-2005, 02:49 AM   #4
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Good for you bboy, keep us posted.
A Hydra tuner manual is great idea.
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Old 01-15-2005, 10:42 AM   #5
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Count me in on this as well, I've had my hydra in the car since August and I've learned a thing or two the hard way

The biggest "problem" areas IMO are consistent cold startup - and which parameters to touch when things aren't perfect (and which ones NOT to touch)

Tuning these things for power is the easiest part
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Old 01-15-2005, 11:04 AM   #6
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Guys feel free to open this guide, and add anything you would like to. I also think it would help if everyone would add what settings they are running for their RS, WRX, or STI under the basic variables. Just make your changes in a colored font so that I can see what you did and email them back to me.
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Old 01-15-2005, 02:48 PM   #7
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If you'd like to do this via a "Wiki", I can set one up for you.
Quote:
Wiki is a piece of server software that allows users to freely create and edit Web page content using any Web browser. Wiki supports hyperlinks and has a simple text syntax for creating new pages and crosslinks between internal pages on the fly.

Wiki is unusual among group communication mechanisms in that it allows the organization of contributions to be edited in addition to the content itself.

Like many simple concepts, "open editing" has some profound and subtle effects on Wiki usage. Allowing everyday users to create and edit any page in a Web site is exciting in that it encourages democratic use of the Web and promotes content composition by nontechnical users.
Now to get back under the car...
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Old 02-01-2005, 08:18 PM   #8
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Did this die?
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Old 02-01-2005, 09:07 PM   #9
wgknestrick
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No, I have an updated verson, I just need to post it. No one has added anything besides me though.
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Old 02-01-2005, 11:16 PM   #10
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I'm happy to work on it. I'm making a install check list so people get the crucial details and then a little intro to tuning that helps the new user eliminate backfiring, idle issues, setting closed loop operation, smoothing out boost, and upping boost. Some of your basic set up stuff.

I have some formatting changes to the main document, but they are pretty minor. I'm just learning how to run everything in the Hydra right now. I've had a pretty good crash course lately--including what not to do.
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Old 02-02-2005, 12:06 AM   #11
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I had a quick question... I was going to buy a hydra, FMIC, Full fuel setup, Air-intake,
Basically everything but a new turbo kit... I fell short on the GT35 kit I raised $6,000

Here is the question would it be a good Idea to buy the hydra and all the other stuff to support a turbo, I have no clue and I am running a stock turbo on my STI!!! So would I make a decent amount of power?? or will I just stress the stock turbo and blow it up?

Please get back to me thanks
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Old 02-02-2005, 12:34 AM   #12
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Repost the guide please!
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Old 02-02-2005, 12:43 PM   #13
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Old 02-02-2005, 05:41 PM   #14
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If any of you can start adding screen captures that would be a huge help. Try to capture the base screen for all of the 2D maps with your "real map in it as well.

I've just found out that what Phil had for my coolant temp correction (and prob some other peoples) was WAY off for the colder temps. He was richening the base fuel map by almost 40-50% in some places where it only needed about 10-15%. I am starting to really learn this thing, but all of the Subaru Specific PWM maps still have little information out there. This is another area that needs big time help in this guide.
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Old 02-02-2005, 08:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick
If any of you can start adding screen captures that would be a huge help. Try to capture the base screen for all of the 2D maps with your "real map in it as well.

I've just found out that what Phil had for my coolant temp correction (and prob some other peoples) was WAY off for the colder temps. He was richening the base fuel map by almost 40-50% in some places where it only needed about 10-15%. I am starting to really learn this thing, but all of the Subaru Specific PWM maps still have little information out there. This is another area that needs big time help in this guide.
No, that's exactly how it was intended to be, significantly richer when the engine is cold vs when it is warm. There is also much overlap in many of the settings so this also affects cold start. By removing 30% from the coolant correction you will have to make it up with other settings. It is also slightly over compensated for those who experience temps colder than -20C.

It's a way to reduce power along with retarding the ignition timing until the engine is up to operating temperature. Your factory ecu reduces boost when the engine is cold and since the Hydra does not have that ability so we seek other alternatives. Please don't assume there is only one correct way to tune especially when it involves tuning base maps for hundreds of people. There is a rhyme and a reason to everything that is programmed in the base maps so please be careful offering advice on what you don't fully understand as you are still a novice tuner, tuning one car. Enjoy what you do, learn from it, and help others but donít make extreme assumptions.

About your tuning guide, which I think you are honorable in attempting to write, is full of misinformation.

ďAmong the most important outputs are the four injector drivers. These are labeled INJ1-INJ4 on the Nemesis. The Nemesis is not aware of the actual firing order of the EJ2xx, which is ?????? and it does not need to because it always starts with 1 and counts up normally until it gets to 4 and starts over again. Because of this, you must remember that INJ1 on the Nemesis is connected to cylinder 1 on the engine, INJ2 is connected++ to cylinder 3, INJ3 is connected to cylinder 4 and INJ4 is connected to cylinder 2.Ē

The Injector order on the Element Hydra WRX/STI is Injector 1 (cylinder 1), injector 2 (cylinder 3), injector 3 (cylinder 2), and injector 4 (cylinder 4). I believe the firing order you have listed is that of a Toyota MR2.

ďNote that downloading will always stop the engine if it is running. This is normal. Just be aware of it so that you don't try to download while the car is moving. Pull off somewhere safe. Download the changes. Turn the ignition power completely off for at least two seconds, and then turn the power back on and resume normal operation.Ē

This is absolutely not enough time on the Element Hydra for the Subaru! Each application is different and it was such a problem on the EVO that a relay had to be wired in as it took over 30 seconds to fully power down.

Now I know this is a work in progress but there is too much misinformation in there and we donít want another Dan Rather incident so please get your facts straight.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 02-03-2005, 12:27 PM   #16
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I have my hydra working from -35C to +30C .. I would not recommend retarding timing at extremly cold temps... what you want is a rich and high idle. keep timing consistant... if you boost when your engine is cold I don't know is retarding any amount will help...
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Old 02-03-2005, 12:46 PM   #17
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I realize that there are numerous inaccuracies in the guide so far, mostly in how it applies to the Subaru engine, that is why it was posted here in an open forum. I still think that what is in here should not be abandoned, because most of the inaccuracies aren't encountered during basic Hydra tweaking/tuning.

My car was running close to 8:1 AFR (which is close to the lower limit of what the WBO2 can read) for the colder coolant temps due to the extreme compensation. This was causing the car to be very sluggish, even on free revs when cold. I just lessoned the compensation from about 65% down to about 30-25% then sloping into 0%. The car now starts up and idles at around 11:1 AFR, which was close to where it was on the stock ECU. I still don't beat on my car until it warm though.
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Old 02-03-2005, 03:41 PM   #18
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Perhaps you should have vetted the guide with Phil prior to posting it in a public forum.
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Old 02-03-2005, 04:07 PM   #19
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I think this is great... this in my opinion TOTALLY shows what I was saying when this thing first came out...

Why the heck are "WE" writing this. Maybe before we start shooting the guy who decided to right a wrong down, why don't we ask how did this need arise in the first place....

I should just stop right here... I talk too much
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Old 02-03-2005, 04:09 PM   #20
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wgknestrick : You may not care about what I think, but I really applaud and sincerely admire this effort...

Thank you.
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Old 02-03-2005, 04:24 PM   #21
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^^^^ Ditto
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:27 PM   #22
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Like I said I think itís an admiral attempt but there is the difference between a hobbyist and a professional. As a professional the customer always looks to you for correct information without fail. A professional has to assume by giving the wrong information the customer will damage their car and either sue or make a PR nightmare out of it. As a hobbyist you are entitled to and I think itís great you want to help but if some takes the wrong advice from a ďwork in progressĒ and blows their engine you get to walk away and say ďIím sorry.Ē Seriously we've all taken bad information at one time or another from the web.

Iíve been providing technical support for Subaru specific programmable engine management for over 3 years and trust me on this one, if thereís misinformation out there they will find it, utilize it, and damage their car with it. With over a 1000 tuned Subaruís under my belt I know you canít make a professional tuner out of a novice in one day but everyone wants to be on the fast track. Youíve got to give people a safe starting place based on all the years of mistakes you seen them make and all the messed up cars youíve tuned (itís rare someone will bring you a car and say it runs great but hereís all my money anyway ). This is why the Element Hydra has been one of the only stand alone engine management systems for the Subaru that has seen any success. Just look how much the RS guys are struggling while most of the WRX and STI customers are satisfied.

At this point the majority of Elementís customers already had some sort of engine management experience under their belt so tech support has been fairly simple. Most quickly grasped new terminology/ features and have needed very little hand holding. I suspect a very different scenario with the release of the STI units since for many this will be their first engine management experience.

All I ask is that you make sure the information is factual and remove what isnít until you can verify it. If itís done well and I hope it is it will make my life much easier because I barely have the time to complete Elementís tuning guides, so donít ask me to edit this one But, you can source what ever you want from Element Tuning Guides.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:07 PM   #23
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We all want accuracy and you (Phil) will not be held accountable. I think something to think about is how a user written document might differ from Phil's Tuning Guide, or perhaps a single document is enough.

I think the the general thrust of Phil's point is there are a distinct lack of reliable Hydra info sources upon which to base a document. There are basically four sources of info: Phil, some brave self taught RS guys, some newbie users, and the MR2 site.

Andrew, could be a fifth, but he's not in the know about many things.

If we can arrive at some common goals with Phil, there is a chance that we can collaborate to create a Hydra Tuning Guide that is both quickly produced and accurate.
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
We all want accuracy and you (Phil) will not be held accountable. I think something to think about is how a user written document might differ from Phil's Tuning Guide, or perhaps a single document is enough.

I think the the general thrust of Phil's point is there are a distinct lack of reliable Hydra info sources upon which to base a document. There are basically four sources of info: Phil, some brave self taught RS guys, some newbie users, and the MR2 site.

Andrew, could be a fifth, but he's not in the know about many things.

If we can arrive at some common goals with Phil, there is a chance that we can collaborate to create a Hydra Tuning Guide that is both quickly produced and accurate.
I agree with you. But its ironic, I think this was the point of this entire thread... I think all we have to do is edit the paragraphs that need changing
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:47 PM   #25
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Can anyone come through with some screen captures or .doc versons of the Element Guides?

I also need some short paragraphs as to what PWMs control what. (I think maybe Phil is the only one with this info though).

The more people help, the faster this gets completed. I'll start next week trying to weed out some of the MR2 specific stuff while at work (just not that busy these days). I didn't want to just remove it, because I wanted to "replace" it with EJ specific info once I had it.

The reason that I am trying to do this is that I found that everything that "I thought" needed tweaking on my map was a specific setting to a standalone. Understanding how all of the compensations work, along with all of the new idle settings, can really help you get your car running like a stock car. There are actually very few people here that have a good deal of standalone tuning knowledge outside of the professionals.
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