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Old 01-27-2005, 12:22 AM   #1
makofoto
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Default Proper use of Spacers to Effect Handling ...

I went to a suspension set-up seminar last night with guest speaker Guy Ankeny. Guy is a renown set-up specialists ... at least when it concerns RWD cars ...

I was very surprised when he said that spacers go on the opposite end of where you think you need them! If you are trying to reduce understeer ... you would put them on the rear. He said you have to think like Karters. If they want to reduce understeer ... they would widen the rear track!

I've added 15 mm spacers to the front of my WRX Wagon (whose front track is 20 mm narrower then a sedan) ... and I've been happily trying to control over steer. So what say you ...

This is NOT my normal attitude!
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Old 01-27-2005, 01:31 AM   #2
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goddamn... how stiff are the springs on that car?
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Old 01-27-2005, 01:52 AM   #3
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only 450/550 ...

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Old 01-27-2005, 02:03 AM   #4
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i see. quite a bit compared to my 280/230 spring rates. btw, i'm guessing that cone stayed up in your second picture?
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Old 01-27-2005, 02:44 AM   #5
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But of Course! If you don't have a fast car ... you need to at least try to get close to the cones!

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Old 01-27-2005, 01:44 PM   #6
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I would like to have some people more brillant than me to talk about this... But here are my thougths:

-The spacers in front did reduce your understeer not because of the wider track, but because of the change of géométry. (How ?) Scrub radius ? (How?)

- The wider rear track would increase front grip ? (How?) In a turn the car would roll on one side AND forward ? / - \

Come on all the smart ones !

-S.
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Old 01-27-2005, 01:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makofoto
I was very surprised when he said that spacers go on the opposite end of where you think you need them! If you are trying to reduce understeer ... you would put them on the rear. He said you have to think like Karters. If they want to reduce understeer ... they would widen the rear track!

I've added 15 mm spacers to the front of my WRX Wagon (whose front track is 20 mm narrower then a sedan) ... and I've been happily trying to control over steer. So what say you ...
What am I missing here? Your post seems to contradict itself, no?
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Old 01-27-2005, 02:10 PM   #8
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a kart chassis is completely different from a car in terms of setup, solid rear axel, chassis is the suspension, some only have rear braking, etc.

and, if you ever want to get into a discussion about how to solve understeer with a kart, you'll get 100 different responses, all swearing they are right.

probably the same with the car. i have understeer w/ my 04 sti. one camp says rear sway bar, another says front.

i tend to believe in work on the area with the problem. not enough front grip? adjust the front. but, i am talking about karts, so, i guess my answer is useless to this thread since they are completely different setups in terms of geometry, etc, from cars.

sam
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Old 01-27-2005, 03:09 PM   #9
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i widen front track to reduce understeer/increase front end bite, and widen rear track to increase rear end grip on my kart.
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Old 01-27-2005, 03:21 PM   #10
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steve, i think the point of his post WAS to show a contradiction. the common issue of theory not seeming to match reality and all.

as to why you got oversteer when you added wheelspacers i would only be able to guess. spacers shouldn't effect balance by a very large margin. changing rc height 1/2" will have a much greater effect on chassis balance then changing track at one end by 1". why don't you try them on the back of the car and see what happens?

nate
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Old 01-27-2005, 03:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo-x
steve, i think the point of his post WAS to show a contradiction. the common issue of theory not seeming to match reality and all.
Oh.

I guess the reference wasn't obvious enough for me...
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Old 01-27-2005, 04:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samboard
a kart chassis is completely different from a car in terms of setup, solid rear axel, chassis is the suspension, some only have rear braking, etc.

and, if you ever want to get into a discussion about how to solve understeer with a kart, you'll get 100 different responses, all swearing they are right.

probably the same with the car. i have understeer w/ my 04 sti. one camp says rear sway bar, another says front.

i tend to believe in work on the area with the problem. not enough front grip? adjust the front. but, i am talking about karts, so, i guess my answer is useless to this thread since they are completely different setups in terms of geometry, etc, from cars.

sam
Sam we gotta meet up at F1-Boston the next time I am in town. I want to drive the outdoor course. LEt me know.

Myles
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Old 01-27-2005, 04:56 PM   #13
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I feel that the effect of the spacers in front as to do with the geometry, not with the width per see. Can someone explain to me how I am wrong ?

Doesn't the addition of 10mm spacers to a (my2002+) wagon reduces the understeer much more than the wider track of the sedan ?

-S.
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Old 01-27-2005, 05:09 PM   #14
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I believe the oversteer came when you up'ed the spring rates to close to a an aggressive 450/550 front/rear combo. The spacers probably just gave it more stability at cornering limits as it widened the track. Other than that, spacers shouldn't cause over/under steer.
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Old 01-28-2005, 01:04 AM   #15
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Sorry if there was confusion ... my Wagon handles great ... for AX. The H&R 15 mm spacers that I added to the front seem to have given me more grip in the front ... which I balanced by adding reducing my rear sway bar from full stiff to medium ... and adding a bit more neg. camber to the rear. I've had those 450/550 spring rates for quite a while.

It was my understanding that adding track width increases grip. One is suppose to make the front grip as well as possible ... then balance the rear. I would say the spacers are working for me.

I was just surprised by what Guy the set-up specialist said. Apparently his expertise is in high powered RWD cars, ie. Corvettes and M3's.

I was wondering if anyone could support what he had to say ...
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Old 01-28-2005, 09:28 AM   #16
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Makofoto - Do the 15mm H&R spacers have the hub-centric lip to mount the wheels onto? Do they come with replacement studs? What size wheels and tires are you running with those?

Thanks!
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Old 01-28-2005, 11:33 AM   #17
makofoto
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look here: http://www.optauto.com/index.htm?par...0&deptid=12542

17 X 8 ... and trying 17 X 8.5 in a few days ... with 225/45/17 Hoosiers (oversized) and 245/35/17
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Old 01-28-2005, 12:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceComp Engineering
Sam we gotta meet up at F1-Boston the next time I am in town. I want to drive the outdoor course. LEt me know.

Myles
no problem, i have a 125 shifter i'll let you rip around in. tm k9b. really fun kart. fast as i need to go

sam
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Old 01-28-2005, 12:25 PM   #19
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Mako,
Those 245/35/R17s should totally rock. If you have an 8.5" wheel though, I'd recommend going bigger. Fit as much as you can on there with the lowest profile possible for gearing.
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