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Old 03-24-2005, 10:51 AM   #26
RodimusPrime
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Guys, first I just wanted to say that the collective information in this thread is amazing. Second, I am getting ready to install some CL-61s myself, and am a little confused as to the threat posed by water, along with the use of various materials to combat it - sheet metal vs. some little foam water protectors. If you use sheet metal is that just cutting something out to go behind the speaker? Excuse the newbieness here Just a little confused as to what goes where once I take the door apart.

Edit: I have the IAperformance "baffles" that sit behind the speakers, but does something go behind those ? To shield it from water?
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Last edited by RodimusPrime; 03-24-2005 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 03-24-2005, 03:26 PM   #27
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You can buy a foam baffle that covers up the back of the speaker to protect against water dripping on it. The problem is there's very little room as it is for most decent speakers, and you would have to modify the foam baffles to fit them anyways. FWIW, I've had door speakers in quite a few cars and have never had a moisture problem, even without the plastic moisture barrier.
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Old 03-24-2005, 06:01 PM   #28
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I just did some work on an STi that had front components installed about a year ago. They were rusted and full of water.


Dont say i didnt warn you

~v6
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Old 03-24-2005, 06:40 PM   #29
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This issue seldom happens but there are ways to make sure it does not, the rear foam cover things are ok but you must have as much cut out as possible so the rear of the speaker cone can move freely in the air around it, if not you will cause distortion in the output due to uneven resistance on the cone.

I have made a lip over the top of the speaker out of mat and others out of flexible plastic glued on, etc.

Rick
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:12 PM   #30
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trust me, im all to aware.

~v6
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raamaudio
This issue seldom happens but there are ways to make sure it does not, the rear foam cover things are ok but you must have as much cut out as possible so the rear of the speaker cone can move freely in the air around it, if not you will cause distortion in the output due to uneven resistance on the cone.

I have made a lip over the top of the speaker out of mat and others out of flexible plastic glued on, etc.

Rick

Ok well I intend to take a lot of pictures of this install once I start so hopefully we can get some guide up here for everyone's benefit. I really don't want my new speakers to get all rusty!!
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:22 AM   #32
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anyone in SoCal have experience doing this? im a little confused on the write-up. i've installed my components up front myself, but im not sure about all the layers. i just assumed u throw away the plastic, lay down a layer where the stock plastic was (cutting a hole for the speakers of course) and then put a layer on the door panel itself (with proper holes and edging of course). how off am i? im not too concerned with water damage, but if there's a trick such as a lip u mentioned, just put it a small lip like a hangover on the top of the mid?
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Old 03-25-2005, 12:39 PM   #33
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Water getting onto mids is usually from running down the inside of the door, not usually dripping on them. So, you just need to make a little dam of sorts to route the water around the opening the mid is mounted in. With a bit of care this can be done with mat products, hard to explain it though, hmmmmm. I bet if you take a good look and image it in your mind, you can come up with a design that will work

You did not mention deadening the outer door skin, very important so make sure you have covered it as well.

On the door panel just add a few strips as needed, give it the thump test with your knuckles, rubber mallet, block of wood etc, and add mat where it is resonate, you will hear the difference right away on each spot that you cover. Normally around 1/4 th to 1/3 rd of the surface area will do the job just fine.

Rick
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Old 03-25-2005, 01:38 PM   #34
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so can we get some step by step pics...........i'll be doing this REALLY soon
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Old 03-26-2005, 01:27 AM   #35
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How would you go about matting the outer door skin? (i've only taken an Acura CL door appart, but I assume other cars should be similar).

When you take the door panel off (the interior trim piece) you basically expose 3 surfaces in the following order. A "inner" door skin/frame. Then you have the glass, and then you have the outer door skin.

The inner door skin only has a few big holes cut in it, do you roll the window up (to get it out of the door) then apply the mat to the outer door skin? do you have to worry about denting the outer door skin when you roll the mat on (I would hate to finish installing my audio system only to walk outside and realized I just screwed up all my doors!)? Also, would it not be VERY difficult to get large sheets of mat (and try and work it onto the outer door skin) using only the small access holes?
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Old 03-26-2005, 08:48 AM   #36
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Deaden the outer door skin with the window up...you won't damage the outer door by deadening. Cut the product into manageable strips and reach in there and place them, then smooth them down with hands, roller, screwdriver handle, etc. This will be clearer to you once you start in on it...
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Old 03-26-2005, 05:14 PM   #37
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I found cutting 6" strips, the lenght of the roll (I just cut it all freehand as exact size doesnt matter) works great for the inside of the STi / WRX doors. I usually make a few wider pieces and a few thinner ones too. You can get away with bigger pieces in the middle of the door, and u might need a smaller piece for the bottom. That way you can put the strip up inside the door and get an idea of where you will be laying it BEFORE you peel off the backing. At least thats how I did it. If you have big arms you might have some trouble getting them up in the doors.

You can just cut the stuff any way you want to and theres really no WRONG way to do it (unless you stick it to something that needs to move such as the door handle and lock rods. You dont want to bind them up at all. Same goes with the window on the inside of the door.)


I found it really easy to pull off the plastic rain shield inside the door (WITHOUT DESTROYING IT) Then take that and lay it on top of my roll of mat and make a full copy of it including the cutout for the door handle, and the 2 slices where the stock wires pass thru. This allowed me to make a single piece that covered the entire door with ease. You just pull the wires thru the mat, and slap it on. (this was possible alone, but would be MUCH easier with a spare set of hands to hold the mat from sticking to everything it touches.

Once you get that huge piece on the door you need to cutout the speaker hole. I cut mine in a star like pattern sorta like ~> * but with a few more lines in it. Then without cutting the pieces off I took them and pushed them inside the door and stuck them on the backside of the panel. if that makes sense




When doing the outer door skin (interior side) you really need to decied what you goal is before you begin. Rick already laid out the options, you just need to pick one.

As i stated before if your in a cold environment cut your pieces before you plan on working and leave them in your boiler room. Also you might want to get a high powered hair dryer, or a heat gun (Be cautious with heat gun as you can actually bubble the paint off the other side of the sheetmetal if your not careful) I just use a high powered hairdryer and it works perfectly.

I will try to get some pics on the next car I do. I dont think it will take that long seeing I just matted the doors on another STi last night (3 in the last 3 months now?). I guess this is going to be the new cool kid mod
Its really amazing how much of a difference it makes on an STi. It is clear as day the car has been matted just by the FIRST POP when you pull the door handle. Nevermind from the way it shuts etc...
If I ever aquire a video camera (and a stock STi) I will make some videos of the difference

~v6

Last edited by V6TurboTA; 03-27-2005 at 12:19 AM. Reason: rearranged to make sense :)
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Old 03-26-2005, 11:15 PM   #38
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Great write up, I need the help, I do this many many times a day via email, sometimes I get asked to design the whole system from the ground up, not just deadening!

Rick
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Old 03-27-2005, 12:12 AM   #39
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Without a doubt. I have been one of those people in the past and I got TONS of info from you.



~v6

p.s. I wax the scissors with regular liquid car wax to prevent the black goo from sticking to them. It works wonders. I just thought of that figured id toss it in.
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Old 03-27-2005, 03:00 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V6TurboTA
p.s. I wax the scissors with regular liquid car wax to prevent the black goo from sticking to them. It works wonders. I just thought of that figured id toss it in.
WD-40 works pretty good for taking the gunk off of them when you're done, too. Soak the scissors pretty good and wipe off with a rag.
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Old 03-27-2005, 03:02 AM   #41
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Sweet. I'll have to try that

~v6
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Old 03-27-2005, 12:37 PM   #42
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I just use a ultility knife, one end to cut, one end to rub it down with. After all these years I have gotten quite proficient with it, I suppose I should be

Scissors are more controlable, less likely to cut yourself or the dreaded scratch the paint on your car, I use them on the foam triming part of the time at least and the mentioned cleaning methods and prevention one do work well

Rick
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Old 03-27-2005, 05:19 PM   #43
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Man, like, whoa! This board is awesome! Thanks for all your contribution!
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Old 05-19-2005, 08:59 PM   #44
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Question Any updates?

Dear Rick,

I know it's been less than a month ago the last time you added/edited something to this thread..... but was just wondering whether you have some more info, or pictures you could sahre with us...

I've compiled all the info you have published, to print it, and yes, it is some pages..........

Once again, thanks!


Cheers,

MO
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Old 05-20-2005, 02:01 AM   #45
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I was also curious to when you said you don't use rear speakers, what do you use for rear fill? the rear deck? Also when mounting the mdf baffle to the door, what is the best way to secure it?
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Old 05-20-2005, 02:52 AM   #46
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Glad I can help, been a bit harder lately as so dang busy all the time, whewwwwww!

One competitor used to keep a stuffed animal in back and named him rear phil, lol!

The very few comp cars that use rear speakers just use one or two mids, no tweeters and play them at very low levels. A properly built sound system just does not need them.

There is another situation though, some like to have rear speakers for their passengers to enjoy, rear deck, doors, etc, just bad places so a major compromise either way you go but the deck is best audiowise for front listeners and the doors best for rear seat as not having one pounding the back of your head is nice

I use double faced foam tape for a seal, self taping screws to mount it, several, then mat right up over the baffle and then over that with foam.

Rick
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Old 05-23-2005, 11:14 AM   #47
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by raamaudio
Glad I can help, been a bit harder lately as so dang busy all the time, whewwwwww!
[...]
I use double faced foam tape for a seal, self taping screws to mount it, several, then mat right up over the baffle and then over that with foam.
Rick
Seeing an actual picture of this would be great



I have a couple of questions............ anyone, please??

1) I don't use the rear doors speakers; do I need to do any deadening at those doors??

I mean, I'm trying to prioritize trying to focus on three or four areas... a couple of days of work; no more than that. Moreover, I'll be trading my car in mid next year... so no need of doing a perfect job

2) After doing the front doors (and I kind of understand all the work that is needed there...); what would you do?? This is a wagon, and trying to follow Rick's instructions is a little difficult...

Lower A pillars, and rear wheel wells?? And THEN the trunk???

3) On the rear wheel wells, you do the right and the left wells? Or you do a whole big thing out of them??

4) No rear deck, right (little obvious)...? No behind the rear seat? I guess not!

5) Rick recommends doing the interior floor before the trunk; is that right? Major problem with trunk is that there are panels everywhere......

6) What do you use to clean the different surfaces?? Specifically, the door outer skin???

I would appreciate you comments on this.


Many thanks!

MO
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Old 05-23-2005, 11:38 AM   #48
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I have a few minutes to spare so will do what I can here Some variations can be done to meet your overall goals and satisfaction level but only you can be the actual judge of that

1) I don't use the rear doors speakers; do I need to do any deadening at those doors??
--In my install guide I cover that issue, to summerize the answer is yes, just seal up the door on the inner metal not the outer skin, seal all holes and cover with the foam and put the panel back on.

I mean, I'm trying to prioritize trying to focus on three or four areas... a couple of days of work; no more than that. Moreover, I'll be trading my car in mid next year... so no need of doing a perfect job

2) After doing the front doors (and I kind of understand all the work that is needed there...); what would you do?? This is a wagon, and trying to follow Rick's instructions is a little difficult...

Lower A pillars, and rear wheel wells?? And THEN the trunk???
--Pretty much, lower A pillars are a bit tough to get to but take very litte material, scaps will do it.

--rear hatch is really next, remove the trim and seal it up like the rear doors.

--cover the wheel wells and at least add some patches of mat to the rear qtr panels, line all this with foam as well, it is for ambient and higher frequency noise than the mat is best at dealing with.

--Then the rear floor, once all that is done the next priority if going further would be the rest of the floor then the roof for those going all out.



3) On the rear wheel wells, you do the right and the left wells? Or you do a whole big thing out of them??

--Not sure exactly what you mean, they are seperated by the width of the car, hmmm, just cover them both, mat then foam



4) No rear deck, right (little obvious)...? No behind the rear seat? I guess not!

--easier in a way but wagons are harder to make quiet than a sedan except the STI of course, they take some serious work but can turn out great

5) Rick recommends doing the interior floor before the trunk; is that right? Major problem with trunk is that there are panels everywhere......
--Not on a wagon, rear areas before the floor.

6) What do you use to clean the different surfaces?? Specifically, the door outer skin???

--Nothing usually, wipe down any dust with a clean rag, if any grease or oil use solvents like acetone or laquer thinner, plenty of ventilation of course and let them dry at the minimum of 2 hours but 3 is better. It may seem dry but there is still off gassing that can effect the mat.

I would appreciate you comments on this.


Many thanks!

MO


Most welcome, now I have to get back to work, oh wait, this is work, glad I love doing it

Rick
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Old 05-23-2005, 10:19 PM   #49
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Rick,
pretty good writeup, but I must add that to this on the door panels, ( maybe I just didn't read it or I skipped over it ) on the door panels, to better reduce outside noise and to even further reduce speaker resonance, It is also highly recommended to put whatever brand of insulating ( dynamat stuff or whatever you call it ) on behind the door panel inside the door. that will reduce resonance from the exterior of the car also and it will definantly help the inside. I did that with my car, and the difference is like night and day. a very easy way to tell is to open and close the door, if you hear things rattling and the overall feel of the door closing sounds like a metallic thud, doing this will greatly reduce that.

I will also second the MDF being used as a speaker baffle, I did the exact same thing with my car. I think we use more MDF in our shop than anything else.

Omar
www.mysafeandsound.com
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Old 05-23-2005, 11:27 PM   #50
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First of all, once again: THANKS!!!

Now, a couple of clarifying questions

Please excuse some of them..... it might be my poor english giving me trouble............

Quote:
Originally Posted by raamaudio
I have a few minutes to spare so will do what I can here Some variations can be done to meet your overall goals and satisfaction level but only you can be the actual judge of that

1) I don't use the rear doors speakers; do I need to do any deadening at those doors??
--In my install guide I cover that issue, to summerize the answer is yes, just seal up the door on the inner metal not the outer skin, seal all holes and cover with the foam and put the panel back on.
Completely understood! Those rear doors WILL be sealed.


Quote:
[...]
2) After doing the front doors (and I kind of understand all the work that is needed there...); what would you do?? This is a wagon, and trying to follow Rick's instructions is a little difficult...
Lower A pillars, and rear wheel wells?? And THEN the trunk???
--Pretty much, lower A pillars are a bit tough to get to but take very litte material, scaps will do it.
I'm having little trouble here understanding...... lower A pillars are like "front wheel wells"???


Quote:
--rear hatch is really next, remove the trim and seal it up like the rear doors.
When you say 'rear hatch', you mean the whole trunk? Or just everything in the trunk above floor level??? How about trunk floor - is this included in 'rear hatch'?? Side panels as well??


Quote:
--cover the wheel wells and at least add some patches of mat to the rear qtr panels, line all this with foam as well, it is for ambient and higher frequency noise than the mat is best at dealing with.
What does that mean?


Quote:
--Then the rear floor, once all that is done the next priority if going further would be the rest of the floor then the roof for those going all out.
'Rear floor' meaning the floor under the rear passengers? Or the floor at the trunk?? I so need this clear as to make my priority list flawless


Quote:
3) On the rear wheel wells, you do the right and the left wells? Or you do a whole big thing out of them??
--Not sure exactly what you mean, they are seperated by the width of the car, hmmm, just cover them both, mat then foam
Got't!


Quote:
4) No rear deck, right (little obvious)...? No behind the rear seat? I guess not!
--easier in a way but wagons are harder to make quiet than a sedan except the STI of course, they take some serious work but can turn out great
5) Rick recommends doing the interior floor before the trunk; is that right? Major problem with trunk is that there are panels everywhere......
--Not on a wagon, rear areas before the floor.
So, by "rear areas" you mean the trunk, and all there???


Quote:
6) What do you use to clean the different surfaces?? Specifically, the door outer skin???
--Nothing usually, wipe down any dust with a clean rag, if any grease or oil use solvents like acetone or laquer thinner, plenty of ventilation of course and let them dry at the minimum of 2 hours but 3 is better. It may seem dry but there is still off gassing that can effect the mat.
[...]
Most welcome, now I have to get back to work, oh wait, this is work, glad I love doing it
Rick
Thank God you really love doing it......


Cheers,

MO
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