Some basic oil questions

[Uncle Scotty]

Starting up a cold engine is the worst possible thing you can do to it......starting a warm engine is the second worse....

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[DrD]

Originally Posted by santofontana

That is probably not true. UOAs over at BITOG have pretty much proven that manufacturers use oils with more additives than normal, especially moly. The oil they use for break-in would not qualify for SM classification because of the extra adds. I know Honda does this, but Im not sure if Subaru does it, I would go search but i need to go to bed.

that's interesting - I wonder if it's just the oil their chosen supplier gives them, or if there is a specific reason they use a higher additive concentration - in the days of old, the break-in oils were generally thinner and allowed increased wear during the break-in process (so that things can seat properly) - increased additives, esp. things like moly. could be corrosion inhibitors (molybdates are frequently used) or perhaps to improve the lubricity of the oil I would think - maybe they want to slow wear in the initial period to allow things to gradually seat, and a higher additive conventional is cheaper than a synthetic fill? - by the way, what is UOA and BITOG? (not up on my acronyms, I guess )

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by DrD

by the way, what is UOA and BITOG? (not up on my acronyms, I guess )

Used Oil Analysis and Bobistheoilguy.com (usually refers to the forums there).

Subarus do not use a break-in oil or additive.

-Dennis

[shemoves]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

Subarus do not use a break-in oil or additive.

One of the dealers I spoke with said my STi's factory oil had a break-in add pak. I know, never trust the dealer, but I spoke with him about differentials and the DCCD and it sounded like he new what he was talking about there...anyone know for sure?

[subenerd]

Switched to redline 5w30 at 3000 miles, no oil consumption unless flogged on

[BillJC]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

Starting up a cold engine is the worst possible thing you can do to it......starting a warm engine is the second worse....

Agreed.

[DrD]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

Used Oil Analysis and Bobistheoilguy.com (usually refers to the forums there).

so when they do the oil analysis, how do they differentiate from something which may be due to an assembly lube (so it's in the first oil change, but not because the factory fill had something special in it) and something which was added to the oil to aid with break-in?

[BillJC]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

Bill....the only problem with what you did/do is that most people haven't got the silghtest clue as to how to break in an engine properly and they rely on myth and hearsay and BS and wives tales and all that...so they almost invariably do it wrong anyway.....

If you put a magnet on the oil filter and crack them open after every oil change you will see how much metal is running through a new unbroken in engine. There is always going to be wear but, when that wear begins to get lesser and lesser as shown by the amount of metal, you can safely switch to synthetic. I keep a magnet on the oil filter not because of the extra protection but, to keep track of how much metal is being put through the engine. A magnetic drain plug can also serve the same purpose. People should make a habit out of cutting open oil filters and seeing what's in there. It's a good indication of the health of the engine. Kind of a poor-mans oil analysis. The only reason that I changed my oil so often during break in is because fresh oil doesn't have any of the break-in metal to contaminate it. I kept track of the break in wear and that is how I determined that I could switch to synthetic oil.

The engine in my 67 mustang was still breaking in until about 6500 miles when I checked it and the metal was dramatically reduced. I switched to synthetic at that point. Of course my mustang takes about 12.5 quarts with the Accusump so changing it gets kind of expensive.

I'm not saying that this is the correct way but, it works for me and I have had good luck with this method. No major mechanical failure and all my previous vehicles have lasted past 150k miles. Even my 92 Dodge dakota is at 160k miles of hard work truck duty and there is no sign of burning oil. The best way to break in any engine is the way that works for you. Simple as that. Some methods might be better than others but, they all work to some extent.

[bigpaulo]

Good dino oils are Pennzoil, Castrol GTX, Motorcraft, Chevron... these are all proven to give great used oil analyses over at BITOG... otherwise, I would recommend the new Mobil 5000 mile oil (it's too darn new to tell right now).

And for the long haul, inside warranty, go with Mobil1 5W30 (not the extended performance, just regular Mobil1)... outside warranty, either still with M1 5W30 if you like it, or try the M1 Extended Performance 5W30 (should have a good track record by then!)... or if it's still around, the ever lovin' German Castrol (Castrol Syntec 0W30, only the stuff that says Made in Germany on the back label... that stuff gets incredible UOAs from *all* sorts of engines).

[Uncle Scotty]

....the damned M1 5w30 is just too damned thin......the 10w30 is MUCH better for a 'light' oil.

the ONLY reason that anybody thinks 5w30 is needed or prefered is that the manufacturers have CAFE to think about....that or you live where summer is 3 months long....

[BillJC]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

....the damned M1 5w30 is just too damned thin......the 10w30 is MUCH better for a 'light' oil.

I thought that I was the only one that thought that. I've been using Redline 10w30 but, seems that suppliers have become scarse lately. At least at good prices. So, I've started using Mobil 1. 10w40 is what I use during the summer. Mobil 1 5w30 looks like olive oil to me.

[eltrouble]

I thought that I was the only one that thought that. I've been using Redline 10w30 but, seems that suppliers have become scarse lately. At least at good prices. So, I've started using Mobil 1. 10w40 is what I use during the summer. Mobil 1 5w30 looks like olive oil to me.

hmm....maybe i should switch to the M1 10w30 stuff then. i live out in cali, so it's never like the weather is super cold anyways at worse all we get is rain....the crazy ass rain we've been getting the last few months. *** is wrong with californian weather? i remember we used to have spring...and fall....now all we have is just really long winter and one really long summer. it's either really cold now or really hot, ***?

anyways...i could've sworn 10w40 is a thinner oil than 5w40. the higher the winter grade rating the thinner the oil is....at least that's what i remember.

[BillJC]

Other way around. The lower the number the thinner the oil. It's cold flow and hot flow in laymans terms.

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by DrD

so when they do the oil analysis, how do they differentiate from something which may be due to an assembly lube (so it's in the first oil change, but not because the factory fill had something special in it) and something which was added to the oil to aid with break-in?

Do a search on BITOG for factory fill UOA's. Here's a recent one on an XT with 1,100 miles on the oil. It does have a lot of moly, but it sheared down to a 20 weight in a short interval.

A few years ago, I heard (SoA rep on Edmunds.com) that Subes use conventional Havoline 5W30 from the factory (at that time). You can compare the additives above to a Havoline Virgin analysis, and some other UOA's/VOA's with a search.

-Dennis

[eltrouble]

meh....well considernig my weather conditions where i live i think a thin oil works just fine.

[DrD]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

Do a search on BITOG for factory fill UOA's. Here's a recent one on an XT with 1,100 miles on the oil. It does have a lot of moly, but it sheared down to a 20 weight in a short interval.

A few years ago, I heard (SoA rep on Edmunds.com) that Subes use conventional Havoline 5W30 from the factory (at that time). You can compare the additives above to a Havoline Virgin analysis, and some other UOA's/VOA's with a search.

-Dennis

that really doesn't answer my question - when they find an abnormal initial oil analysis, how do they determine that it was something added intentionally to the oil and not something there because of an assembly lube, etc?

[realwomble]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

....the damned M1 5w30 is just too damned thin......the 10w30 is MUCH better for a 'light' oil.

the ONLY reason that anybody thinks 5w30 is needed or prefered is that the manufacturers have CAFE to think about....that or you live where summer is 3 months long....

5-30 and 10-30 should be the same weight when hot... right?

So why so much difference?

[DrD]

Originally Posted by realwomble

5-30 and 10-30 should be the same weight when hot... right?

So why so much difference?

no - if you look at the Mobil spec sheet, the 5w30 is thinner at temperature as well. (remember - oil weight numbers encompass a range of viscosities)

[eltrouble]

well if the 5w-30 is recommended then that's what i'll use. what i don't get is that if the 5w-30 is thinner, how is it better used to start engines in cold weather? the lil chart the manual provides show's that it is useful when engine temperatures are in the negative Fahrenheit area, shouldn't it be that thicker oil is better to start engines in the dead cold?

[DrD]

thinner = flows better (lower viscosity) at low temperatures

the thinner oil better lubricates in cold temperatures (it can flow around and coat things more effectively) than a thicker oil. Subaru actually only recommends 5w30 for temperatures under 100F and 10w30 or 10w40 for temperatures ranging from 0 F and above.

[Uncle Scotty]

....w 0 w.......

See....this is one BIG reason that SO many people make such poor decesions about things like oil.....it is because they know nothing about it.....

the thinner oil better lubricates in cold temperatures (it can flow around and coat things more effectively) than a thicker oil. Subaru actually only recommends 5w30 for temperatures under 100F and 10w30 or 10w40 for temperatures ranging from 0 F and above.

The above applies to NON synthetic oil.......synthetic oil has a much lower pour point and is much more easily pumped when cold.

IMO, there is almost NO need for anybody to use 5w30 M1 in the US....except those who live in such winter wonderlands that encounter -30° trmperatures and below.....and in the summer...in a turbo'd car.....10w30 is thin.....

[esteve]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

IMO, there is almost NO need for anybody to use 5w30 M1 in the US....except those who live in such winter wonderlands that encounter -30° trmperatures and below.....and in the summer...in a turbo'd car.....10w30 is thin.....

It certainly won't hurt though right? I've seen a couple of UOAs on here with excellent results using M1 5W-30, and they were with fairly long OCIs.

[Uncle Scotty]

Originally Posted by esteve

It certainly won't hurt though right? I've seen a couple of UOAs on here with excellent results using M1 5W-30, and they were with fairly long OCIs.

TOO THIN.