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Old 02-04-2005, 07:21 PM   #1
trail*of*dead
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Default Some body figure this one out. (element/hydra ?)

Original thread before I knew what was wrong

As far as I can guess the injectors we not firing at all with the hydra installed. Before I knew what the problem was I talked with Phil went over the situation, he had me check a few things, but to no avail.

So my question is, did I have something set wrong on the Hydra, or did UPS bork my hydra?
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Old 02-04-2005, 10:37 PM   #2
Element Tuning
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673 WHP Element
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You said it tried to start when you spilled gas into the injector hole. This tells me you're not getting enough fuel, but the crank trigger has syncronized, and your getting spark. Most say I have the cranking enrichement too high but in your case it may be too low or the map itself may be too lean. Nine out of ten times it will start if it's too rich but it won't start if it's too lean.

Try turning the key on and off about 5-6 times as this will prime the engine with lots of fuel and then try to start it. If it's attempting to start then you know it's just not getting enough fuel...why your car isn't getting enough fuel and most experience richness at start up, I'm not sure. I looked at your map and it does have my older crank enrichement settings vs. the new one which has been modified for colder weather.

If it seemed to run well on the stock ecu with 816 cc injectors I would say you have a fuel deliver issue vs. a tuning issue.

The last instance a car would not start with the Hydra the boost/vacuum line was installed improperly and the other had the coil pack connectors reversed. Also make sure you have at least 10.4 volts while cranking.

Send me an email and I'll try and trouble shoot with you tomorrow after my tune.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 02-05-2005, 05:30 AM   #3
trail*of*dead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
You said it tried to start when you spilled gas into the injector hole. This tells me you're not getting enough fuel, but the crank trigger has syncronized, and your getting spark. Most say I have the cranking enrichement too high but in your case it may be too low or the map itself may be too lean. Nine out of ten times it will start if it's too rich but it won't start if it's too lean.

Try turning the key on and off about 5-6 times as this will prime the engine with lots of fuel and then try to start it. If it's attempting to start then you know it's just not getting enough fuel...why your car isn't getting enough fuel and most experience richness at start up, I'm not sure. I looked at your map and it does have my older crank enrichement settings vs. the new one which has been modified for colder weather.

If it seemed to run well on the stock ecu with 816 cc injectors I would say you have a fuel deliver issue vs. a tuning issue.

The last instance a car would not start with the Hydra the boost/vacuum line was installed improperly and the other had the coil pack connectors reversed. Also make sure you have at least 10.4 volts while cranking.

Send me an email and I'll try and trouble shoot with you tomorrow after my tune.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
Basically what happened was, the only time it even sounded like it was going to start with the hydra in was when I pulled a injector, turned the car to the start position, gas sprayed every were, I reinstalled the injector. next crank, sputtered for one or two cranks, then nothing. It started first crank when I reinstalled the stock ECU, I let it idle for roughly 15 seconds before I turned it off. So I know that nothing that I installed is wrong ie. the injectors/ feul pump are working with stock ECU.

I have turned the key off and on multiple times with the hydra with no avail, which makes me think I either have something wrong with my settings, or perhaps UPS borked the Hydra. I dunno, I must be getting spark, I just don't think I am getting feul injection with the hydra. I will have to call you on Sunday or Monday Phil and figure this out.
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Old 02-05-2005, 08:19 AM   #4
Element Tuning
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673 WHP Element
Tuning Pro Comp Engine

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Send it back and I will make sure it's working properly. I'm not saying this is absolutely the case but I've dealt with many who swear up and down (experts included) that everything is installed correctly and the car won't start but installing the stock ecu starts the car.

Do me a favor and run your boost vacuum line out the window and to the computer to make sure it's not pinched. I've also accidentally pinched the hose putting the kickplate back on so just double check the obvious. It will just crank over and over and not start if this line is pinched.

I have a car that hasn't been able to start with the Hydra for about 4 months. Within two minutes of looking under the hood I found the problem.

Just box the unit up and send it to me and I'll make sure it works.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 02-05-2005, 01:38 PM   #5
trail*of*dead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
Send it back and I will make sure it's working properly. I'm not saying this is absolutely the case but I've dealt with many who swear up and down (experts included) that everything is installed correctly and the car won't start but installing the stock ecu starts the car.

Do me a favor and run your boost vacuum line out the window and to the computer to make sure it's not pinched. I've also accidentally pinched the hose putting the kickplate back on so just double check the obvious. It will just crank over and over and not start if this line is pinched.

I have a car that hasn't been able to start with the Hydra for about 4 months. Within two minutes of looking under the hood I found the problem.

Just box the unit up and send it to me and I'll make sure it works.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
I will check the boost vac line, although I already trimmed it down to a shorter size, I will pull out the rubber vap barrier, and unattatch the kick plate make sure the line is touching nothing, and try and start it. I want to try more things before I take it out and send it back though, I don't give up that easily .
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Old 02-06-2005, 04:59 AM   #6
trail*of*dead
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Got home, pulled the vap seal where the vac line runs through the fire wall, and also re-routed the line so it is going over the top of the manifold directly into the hole in the fire wall. took the inner carpet out, kick plate, made sure that the hose was crimped in no way. Same thing, Not even a hint of wanting to start with the Hydra in. I also rechecked to the best of my ability every inch of the work that I did on the car.

Is there a setting that I could possibly have wrong in the Hydra that would prevent it from getting spark, or proper feul? As soon as I switch over to the stock ECu, it starts first crank. If I had done some thing wrong with the other parts that I had installed, wouldn't the stock ECU not start up also ?
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Old 02-06-2005, 08:53 AM   #7
Element Tuning
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673 WHP Element
Tuning Pro Comp Engine

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I just send you a new map just in case something accidentally was altered on your current map.

The factory ecu will start anything just about. Somehow it managed to start a car with the coil pack leads reveresed. We also had the same problem with wgenstrick's car, stock ecu started it but Hydra did not. We ended up tracing it down to a wire tap in the engine harness for his water injection system that was not passed through on the Hydra.

Of course there is always the possibility that the Hydra is damaged/defective.

Try the new map and send me an email update.

Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 02-06-2005, 01:40 PM   #8
trail*of*dead
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Just out of curitosity, how likely is it that there is an issue with the Hydra?
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Old 02-06-2005, 01:58 PM   #9
Element Tuning
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Vehicle:
673 WHP Element
Tuning Pro Comp Engine

Default

If the Hydra is defective and the car will not start because of it, you would be the first one ever for Element. All other cases were user/installation error. Tuning error is really rare since the map can be way off and still start.

There's a chance the map or flash is not downloaded correctly however. I don't rewrite the entire code on the units so if something for whatever reason was downloaded incorrectly/incomplete from Hydra and I did not write over it there is a possibility it would not start.

Let's try one more thing but it will have to wait until i can get in touch with Hydra so I can get the entire unlock code. We can reprogram everything in the unit to make sure it's not a map issue.

Like I said don't waste too much time tracing everything down, so if the above does not result in the car starting, send it back and let's make sure it's not the unit or harness.

Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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