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Old 02-27-2005, 03:15 PM   #1
jefersun
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Member#: 37716
Join Date: Jun 2003
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston, TX (sugarland, TX)
Vehicle:
2002 ej257 Black WRX

Default How do you tune with a cutout with a utec?

mods:

vf22
utec w/ tuna
modded injectors
walbro
TBE to stock muffler
GT Spec gen II header + uppipe

Normally i would tune my car with my exhaust how it is, with the 3" HKS downpipe to my home made 3" midsection to stock muffler. I used to have an electrical cutout by QTP but the thing always leaked and broke on me 2 months later. I still have an extension that comes out of my downpipe (like maybe 4" or 3" long at the most), but it has a plate that covers it. went to the track the other week and i decided to take the plate off and see the results. I gained 2 mph on my trap . Put the plate back on in less than 5 minutes (3 bolts) and then drove home in quiet.

So today i took off the plate just for fun and i noticed that the AFRs on my Tuna were ridiculous high. For instance, at idle, my AFRs were from lowest to highest 16 - 18.

I know the reason is because the o2 sensor is right where the cutout is, but, i was just wondering how would one tune with a cutout?

Here are some pics:





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Last edited by jefersun; 02-27-2005 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 02-27-2005, 04:19 PM   #2
jmussetter
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Midnight Black

Default

Ok, some may disagree with me on this, but I have custom tuned my UTEC with my QTEC cutout, and have logged and logged well over 5000mi of driving and ran the logs through Logmapper.

Your setup sounds similar to mine, in that you are catless either way, and cutout is only bypassing the stock muffler for the most part. While my cutout is right after the turbo, I'm also running an HKS (modified) DP and am catless w/ stock muffler as well.

On my setup, the AFR's do not change enough between having the QTEC open or closed to need a seperate tune to run. I am running 1 map on my UTEC and run both open and closed, and don't see any more fluctuation in AFR than is normally expected between 1 run and another. I think you're seeing such a big difference because of where your O2 is. My O2 sensor is 6-8" right after the turbo, further upstream than yours.

If you think about, the cutout is pretty much acting like a "catback" add-on since you are already catless. Most tuners do not use different 'shelf-maps' depending on whether you have a cat-back or not. Most tuners go by how many Cat-Conv. you have removed to determine which 'tune' they give you. As long as you have a safe tune with the QTEC closed, you should have a safe tune with the QTEC open as well.

Now, if someone were to run the QTEC on a car with cats, and dump was before the cats, then I would think there would be more of a reason to worry about it.

-jason
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Old 02-27-2005, 05:10 PM   #3
Uncle Scotty
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefersun
mods:
.................................................. .....................to stock muffler.................................

....w 0 w.............all that and the stock muff.....

...and you wonder why you gained 2mph....
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Old 02-27-2005, 11:38 PM   #4
jefersun
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston, TX (sugarland, TX)
Vehicle:
2002 ej257 Black WRX

Default

Well i'm kind of weary about the gain of 2mph anyways, because i had race gas in and i was increasing timing and boost after each run. It certainly didn't feel any faster. I serouslly doubt that the 5 hp that a new muffler or no muffler at will give me will result in 2 mph more in a trap. It's nice to run 12.8s on pump on a quiet car, you should try it sometime. It's intentional that i have a stock muffler.
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Old 02-27-2005, 11:40 PM   #5
jefersun
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Location: Houston, TX (sugarland, TX)
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2002 ej257 Black WRX

Default

Anyone else?
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Old 02-28-2005, 12:36 AM   #6
Uncle Scotty
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...well my car isn't(too) loud and a 3" stromung is WAY less restrictive than the cork the stock axleback is....I'd rather have a sweet sound and 10-15 more hp than a silent, can't hear it to shift car.....but as far as the cutout.....

You'd have to make a map for the cutout and just switch to it when you run the cutout....a seperate map...
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Old 02-28-2005, 12:16 PM   #7
ride5000
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Default

if you ever expect to get a useful reading out of your wideband, you have to keep it from getting a contaminated air stream.

until you get a useful reading out of your wideband, you will not be able to tune your car to its maximum potential.

probably not what you wanted to hear, but that's the way it is.

jm2c
ken
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Old 02-28-2005, 05:13 PM   #8
jefersun
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2002 ej257 Black WRX

Default

actually that is what i was thinking. I've noticed that on many downpipes these days there is a bung near the downpipe to turbo flange. Say if i had a downpipe like that, if i had the 02 sensor over there, do you think that i would get accurate 02 sensor readings (that is the "contamination" would be essentially zero)?
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:52 PM   #9
jmussetter
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Default

I have mine about 6" after the turbo in the DP. It is really accurate, but the heat can sometimes cause problems with the sensor...

-jason
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Old 03-17-2005, 02:33 PM   #10
jefersun
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston, TX (sugarland, TX)
Vehicle:
2002 ej257 Black WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
if you ever expect to get a useful reading out of your wideband, you have to keep it from getting a contaminated air stream.

until you get a useful reading out of your wideband, you will not be able to tune your car to its maximum potential.

probably not what you wanted to hear, but that's the way it is.

jm2c
ken
So i'm gonna bring this thread back up from the dead...

My friend has a STi. His mods now include
Utec w/tuna , Helix Downpipe, and QTP e-cutout.

Oh and he has an intake, but thats just for the sound, not power. Anyways here are some of his logs. His wideband is connected via the bung near the turbo on the helix downpipe. Pretty cool feature, but look at his AFRs in the logs from QTP closed and QTP open, the afrs are significantly leaner. By the way, he hasn't done any tuning at all, not even boost, only thing that he has that might be tuning is a spring to keep his wastegate shut (giving him high boost values throughout the rpm range).

4th Gear
QTP Closed
PHP Code:
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4th Gear
QTP Open
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 5878 
+15.5 4.5 100  80    00   +16.7  ---.- +22.6  +0.5 325.00 4.5  11.34
 5984 
+15.9 4.5 100  90    00   +17.1  ---.- +22.8  +0.5 325.00 4.5  11.30
 6006 
+15.7 4.5 100  80    00   +17.6  ---.- +23.2  +0.5 350.00 4.4  11.28
 6093 
+15.5 4.4 100  80    00   +18.4   98.5 +23.2  +0.4 350.00 4.5  11.27
 6289 
+14.9 4.4 100  80    00   +19.3  ---.- +24.8  +0.4 350.00 4.5  11.28
 6242 
+14.7 4.5 100  80    00   +20.2  100.0 +24.8  +0.3 350.00 4.5  11.33
 6289 
+15.1 4.5 100  90    00   +20.8  ---.- +25.1  +0.3 350.00 4.5  11.33
 6613 
+15.3 4.5 100  80    00   +21.4  ---.- +25.9  +0.0 350.00 4.4  11.33
 6535 
+15.3 4.5 100  80    00   +23.2   99.5 +25.9  +0.0 350.00 4.5  11.33
 6680 
+14.9 4.5  99  80    00   +24.3  ---.- +26.2  +0.0 350.00 4.5  11.30
 6747 
+14.3 4.5 100  80    00   +25.7  ---.- +26.5  +0.1 350.00 4.5  11.37
 6706 
+14.3 4.5 100  80    00   +27.3   99.6 +26.8  +0.1 350.00 4.5  11.37
 6930 
+14.7 4.5  99  80    00   +28.1   99.2 +27.3  +0.1 350.00 4.5  11.42
 6915 
+14.5 4.5 100  80    00   +28.4   96.6 +27.5  +0.1 350.00 4.5  11.42 
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Old 03-17-2005, 02:41 PM   #11
ride5000
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you're running out of injector, plain and simple. bump fuel pressure or go to larger capacity injectors. running static at 11.3 is pushing it hard.
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Old 03-17-2005, 03:34 PM   #12
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HKS bellmouth w/ QTP to stock rear section here. Soon installing a WB after the turbo, I'll post my logs.
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Old 03-17-2005, 03:38 PM   #13
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man, thats weird. same IDC...same boost...same MAF V...same timing...just leaner.

hes completely catless??

he should pull boost back to about 14psi from 5700-redline to keep from maxing out the injectors. maxing them out is never good.
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Old 03-17-2005, 03:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
you're running out of injector, plain and simple. bump fuel pressure or go to larger capacity injectors. running static at 11.3 is pushing it hard.
The thing is, how is he running 11.3 with the cutout open and then 11.1 with the cutout closed? It's my opinion that he is not actually running 11.3, there must be some air contamination that would affect the wideband readings. The wideband is giving precise information, but not necessarily accurate.

As for cats, he does have one cat. I don't know how that would affect anything at all anyways.

Also, how do the logs look for a car that is running just the base map? His car pulls insanely hard, i don't know if its because of the torque or what but it feels very fast for such little mods (he's trapped nearly 106.6 at his best). He's even raced a stock STi when he was stock from a roll, and he was pulling on him.
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Old 03-17-2005, 04:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
man, thats weird. same IDC...same boost...same MAF V...same timing...just leaner.

hes completely catless??

he should pull boost back to about 14psi from 5700-redline to keep from maxing out the injectors. maxing them out is never good.
What about just getting a new fuel pump, as that's what he was going to get to fix that problem? Do WRXs and STis have the same fuel pump? I think a Walbro 342 should be perfect..
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Old 03-17-2005, 04:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefersun
Also, how do the logs look for a car that is running just the base map? His car pulls insanely hard, i don't know if its because of the torque or what but it feels very fast for such little mods (he's trapped nearly 106.6 at his best). He's even raced a stock STi when he was stock from a roll, and he was pulling on him.
the car is pulling very good maf voltage with fairly aggressive advance. it SHOULD be pulling hard! i'd say ~280whp.

sometimes you just et a wednesday car. minute physical differences, especially in the cast exhaust manifolds and turbine housing, can make a big difference in powerband.
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Old 03-17-2005, 05:16 PM   #17
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Ya, the friend is me. I'm going to get a new fuel pump soon, hopefully that will reduce idcs some. I have a catted helix dp. Also worth noting is I have a txs intake with a cut resonator and removed fog cover, meaning ram air. This tends to max out the injectors faster as well.

Last edited by HIREN; 03-17-2005 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 03-18-2005, 01:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HIREN
Also worth noting is I have a txs intake with a cut resonator and removed fog cover, meaning ram air. This tends to max out the injectors faster as well.
I can assure you that you will never have positive pressure pre-compressor so you will never achieve ram air. On an NA car at 150mph+ maybe.
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Old 03-18-2005, 02:25 AM   #19
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Even though its probably not technically ram air, the logs seem to show it helps some.

Fog cover ON
with cut resonator
Code:
58 degrees
4th gear pull
                    Load Knock                Mod   Mod         Mod
 RPM   MAP  MAF TPS Site Count  Ign#1  Inj#1  Ign   Fuel Boost  MAF
       psia  V   %               deg   duty   deg    %   (CL)    V 
 
 2483  -9.6 2.2  13  00    00   +44.0   10.0 ECU.   +0.0 ECU.   2.2
 2515  -8.7 2.2  11  00    00   +43.8    9.9 ECU.   +0.0 ECU.   2.2
 2550  -6.9 2.8 100  10    00   +29.8   19.0 +23.0  +4.7 365.00 2.9
 2647  -4.7 2.9 100  10    00   +23.4   21.3 +23.0  +3.5 400.00 3.0
 2712  -2.0 3.0 102  10    00   +21.2   22.4 +23.0  +2.4 400.00 3.1
 2820  +0.8 3.1 100  20    00   +17.6   29.2 +17.0  +2.1 400.00 3.2
 2858  +3.3 3.3  99  30    00   +14.4   35.6 +17.0  +2.9 400.00 3.4
 2944  +5.7 3.5 101  50    00   +12.0   43.8 +16.0  +2.6 400.00 3.6
 3069  +8.2 3.7 100  60    00   +11.3   54.3 +16.0  +3.8 400.00 3.9
 3242 +11.5 3.9 100  80    00   +11.4   59.0 +14.0  +4.5 400.00 3.8
 3330 +14.1 3.8 100  90    00   +11.6   55.8 +13.9  +4.4 400.00 3.8
 3443 +15.9 3.8  99  90    00   +11.4   64.3 +14.4  +3.3 400.00 4.0
 3627 +16.8 4.0 100  90    00   +11.3   62.8 +14.5  +3.3 400.00 4.1
 3858 +16.6 4.0 100  90    00   +14.1   71.8 +14.9  +3.2 400.00 4.1
 3840 +17.0 4.0 100  90    00   +16.8   70.4 +15.5  +3.2 400.00 4.1
 3968 +16.4 4.1 100  90    00   +19.2   70.5 +16.5  +3.2 400.00 4.1
 4065 +16.6 4.0  98  80    00   +20.3   73.5 +17.3  +2.9 400.00 4.2
 4306 +16.8 4.1  99  90    00   +20.5   76.1 +17.6  +2.9 400.00 4.2
 4363 +16.4 4.2 100  90    00   +20.5   78.3 +18.0  +2.8 400.00 4.2
 4553 +16.8 4.2 100  90    00   +21.1   83.7 +18.5  +3.0 400.00 4.2
 4597 +16.8 4.2 100  90    00   +21.5   88.3 +19.1  +2.6 400.00 4.3
 4816 +16.8 4.2  98  90    00   +21.9   83.7 +19.5  +1.6 400.00 4.3
 4982 +16.6 4.3 100  90    00   +22.3   88.7 +19.8  +0.9 400.00 4.3
 4997 +16.4 4.3 100  90    00   +22.7   85.8 +20.1  -0.1 400.00 4.3
 5159 +16.1 4.3 100  80    00   +23.6   86.9 +21.0  -0.2 400.00 4.3
 5241 +15.5 4.3 100  80    00   +23.3   88.6 +21.1  -0.1 400.00 4.3
 5446 +15.1 4.3  99  80    00   +23.2   94.0 +21.3  +0.2 400.00 4.4
 5574 +14.5 4.3 100  80    00   +23.4   91.5 +21.8  +0.4 400.00 4.3
 5621 +14.3 4.4 100  80    00   +23.5   96.4 +22.2  +0.4 400.00 4.4
 5659 +14.1 4.3  98  80    00   +23.4   93.2 +22.3  +0.5 400.00 4.4
 5827 +13.9 4.4 100  80    00   +23.4   95.6 +22.7  +0.5 400.00 4.4
 5847 +14.1 4.4 100  80    00   +23.4   96.7 +22.9  +0.5 400.00 4.4
 6060 +13.7 4.4 100  70    00   +23.6   96.4 +22.9  +0.0 400.00 4.4
 6116 +13.5 4.4 100  70    00   +24.3   95.4 +23.8  +0.0 400.00 4.4
 6161 +13.5 4.3  99  70    00   +24.8   96.0 +24.0  -0.2 400.00 4.4
 6253 +13.7 4.4 101  80    00   +25.3   94.4 +25.1  +0.1 400.00 4.4
 6626 +13.5 4.4 100  70    00   +25.9   96.9 +25.5  -0.3 400.00 4.4
 6435 +13.5 4.4 100  70    00   +27.4   93.9 +25.7  -0.5 400.00 4.3
 6422 +13.1 4.4 100  70    00   +28.2   91.6 +25.7  -0.6 400.00 4.4
 6653 +12.9 4.4 100  70    00   +29.1   94.3 +26.1  -0.6 400.00 4.4
 6788 +13.1 4.4 100  70    00   +30.9   92.5 +26.4  -0.5 400.00 4.3
 6734 +13.3 4.4 101  70    00   +29.3   90.2 +26.8  -0.5 400.00 4.4
 6944 +13.5 4.4 100  70    00   +31.9   89.1 +27.3  -0.5 400.00 4.4
 6734 +13.3 4.4 101  70    00   +31.4   82.1 +27.1  -0.5 400.00 4.4
 6988 +13.5 4.4 100  70    00   +31.3   83.8 +27.4  -0.5 400.00 4.3
 7215 +13.1 4.2  72  70    00   +31.6   86.9 +27.5  -0.5 400.00 4.0

Fog cover OFF
with cut resonator
Code:
58 degrees
4th gear pull

                    Load Knock                Mod   Mod         Mod
 RPM   MAP  MAF TPS Site Count  Ign#1  Inj#1  Ign   Fuel Boost  MAF
       psia  V   %               deg   duty   deg    %   (CL)    V 

 2666 -11.0 2.8  43  10    00   +33.3   20.8 +23.0  +3.5 332.50 2.9
 2542  -8.1 2.8  87  10    00   +12.8   19.1 +23.0  +2.4 400.00 2.9
 2540  -5.1 2.9 100  10    00   +22.7   21.6 +23.0  +4.4 400.00 3.0
 2660  -1.6 3.0 101  10    00   +19.8   21.9 +23.0  +2.7 400.00 3.1
 2780  +1.5 3.1 101  20    00   +17.3   26.9 +17.0  +2.1 400.00 3.3
 2805  +3.3 3.3 101  30    00   +14.2   34.9 +17.0  +2.9 400.00 3.4
 2918  +5.5 3.5 101  50    00   +11.8   41.0 +16.0  +2.7 400.00 3.5
 3027  +8.4 3.7 100  60    00   +10.8   48.0 +16.0  +3.8 400.00 3.7
 3159 +11.5 3.7 100  80    00   +11.4   57.3 +14.0  +4.5 400.00 3.9
 3326 +14.3 3.6  99  90    00   +11.6   61.9 +13.7  +4.6 400.00 3.7
 3454 +16.1 3.7 100 100    00   +11.3   61.6 +14.4  +3.7 400.00 4.1
 3561 +17.2 3.8 100  90    00   +11.4   60.7 +14.5  +3.4 400.00 4.1
 3683 +17.6 3.9  98  90    00   +11.7   66.1 +14.5  +3.3 400.00 4.0
 3862 +17.2 4.1 101  90    00   +13.9   71.1 +15.1  +3.2 400.00 4.1
 3963 +17.0 4.0  99  90    00   +15.5   71.1 +16.1  +3.2 400.00 4.1
 4110 +17.0 4.1 100  90    00   +16.8   74.3 +16.9  +3.1 400.00 4.2
 4203 +17.0 4.1 100  90    00   +17.2   70.7 +17.2  +2.9 400.00 4.2
 4345 +17.0 4.1  99  90    00   +17.5   79.4 +17.8  +2.7 400.00 4.3
 4510 +16.8 4.2 100  90    00   +18.0   81.7 +18.4  +3.0 400.00 4.3
 4578 +16.4 4.2 100  90    00   +18.3   85.0 +18.8  +2.7 400.00 4.4
 4768 +16.8 4.3 100  90    00   +18.9   87.9 +19.4  +2.3 400.00 4.3
 4859 +17.2 4.3 100 100    00   +19.4   90.6 +19.5  +0.9 400.00 4.3
 4894 +17.4 4.3  99 100    00   +19.5   87.5 +19.5  +0.2 400.00 4.3
 5058 +17.6 4.3 100  90    00   +19.6   89.2 +20.4  -0.1 400.00 4.3
 5208 +16.8 4.3 100  80    00   +19.6   86.6 +21.0  -0.2 400.00 4.4
 5350 +16.4 4.4 100  90    00   +20.4   90.2 +21.5  -0.1 400.00 4.3
 5491 +16.4 4.4 100  90    00   +21.1   94.4 +21.7  +0.0 400.00 4.4
 5592 +16.6 4.4  99  90    00   +20.9   93.4 +22.1  +0.0 400.00 4.4
 5777 +16.1 4.4 100  80    00   +21.1   95.8 +22.2  +0.4 400.00 4.4
 5737 +16.4 4.4 100  80    00   +21.1   95.4 +22.4  +0.5 400.00 4.4
 5984 +15.7 4.4 100  90    00   +21.5   95.6 +22.7  +0.5 400.00 4.4
 5931 +15.1 4.4 100  80    00   +21.6   98.1 +22.8  +0.4 400.00 4.4
 6006 +15.5 4.5 100  80    00   +22.3   97.4 +23.2  +0.5 400.00 4.4
 6071 +14.7 4.5 100  80    00   +23.0   98.9 +23.8  +0.4 400.00 4.4
 6218 +14.1 4.4 100  70    00   +24.0   96.3 +24.6  -0.3 400.00 4.4
 6325 +14.1 4.4  98  70    00   +24.4   99.0 +25.3  -0.3 400.00 4.4
 6510 +13.5 4.4 100  70    00   +25.8   91.8 +25.5  -0.3 400.00 4.4
 6510 +13.7 4.5 100  80    00   +26.5   98.4 +25.7  +0.0 400.00 4.4
 6613 +13.7 4.5 100  80    00   +27.0   99.7 +26.3  +0.0 400.00 4.4
 6574 +13.5 4.5 100  70    00   +28.7   94.2 +26.8  -0.6 400.00 4.4
 6720 +13.1 4.4  99  70    00   +29.3   97.2 +27.1  -0.5 400.00 4.4
 6872 +12.9 4.5 101  70    00   +31.0   93.9 +27.3  -0.5 400.00 4.4
 6816 +12.9 4.5 100  70    00   +31.4   92.9 +27.3  -0.5 400.00 4.4
 6915 +13.1 4.5 101  70    00   +31.1   90.6 +27.3  -0.5 400.00 4.4
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Old 03-18-2005, 07:38 AM   #20
happasaiyan
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colder air. not ram air. looks like the extra cold air helped your turbo boost a little bit higher (you were on the edge of 4.4 and 4.5 v before the fog cover was removed), and thus raised your MAF V and thus made you fuel a bit more.
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Old 03-18-2005, 09:47 AM   #21
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this is why you should always source air from the fenderwell...
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Old 03-18-2005, 03:57 PM   #22
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Just another possibility, since you're running your injectors pretty much wide open at higher rpms, if you un-cork your exhaust, your engine's VE will go up a bit. It'll breath more air but won't get more fuel do to your maxed out injectors.
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Old 03-18-2005, 06:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hunter
Just another possibility, since you're running your injectors pretty much wide open at higher rpms, if you un-cork your exhaust, your engine's VE will go up a bit. It'll breath more air but won't get more fuel do to your maxed out injectors.
Which is why my AFRs are leaner with the cutout open.
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