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Old 03-08-2005, 10:27 AM   #1
MK19_
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Question Rear ABS removal via V4 STi RA 5 speed install

OK, I know very little in regards to what is going to occur once i get my V4 STi RA 5 speed installed, but I do know that the car is going to have an STi R180 rear diff and supporting axles/hubs that do not have ABS- which obviously my 2002 wagon does. What kind of issues wil I run into leaving the rear non-ABS and keeping the front ABS (stock)? I have heard that I can use the Legacy ABS setup, as it appears that is a compatible setup with this hub assy. Anyone who is able to shed a bit more light on this as well as some recommendations is certainly appreciated. Also, here's a bit more info on the setup I am swapping to:

V4 STi RA 5 speed, R180 4.44, DCCD w/ all supporting equipment/harnesses, front and rear LSD's (mech), hub assy and axles.
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Old 03-08-2005, 11:20 AM   #2
crazyhorse
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So remind me again why you're asking for donations to help you fix your transmission when you're planning on spending that much cash to get an STi transmission rather than just fix your car?
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Old 03-08-2005, 11:37 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyhorse
So remind me again why you're asking for donations to help you fix your transmission when you're planning on spending that much cash to get an STi transmission rather than just fix your car?
You make it sound like I am splurging on a 6 speed. Anyway, to answer your question- because I'd rather go ahead and get what I can so that I am not in this position again any time soon So, gettting back to my original posting...
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Old 03-08-2005, 11:44 AM   #4
crazyhorse
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A rebuild is much cheaper... My point is if you're going to post on NASIOC and ask for money because you don't have enough to fix your car you should probably let those people know that you are spending quite a bit more money than what is required to get the car running again. If you're that broke you don't need to be buying a several thousand dollar conversion.
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Old 03-08-2005, 11:59 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyhorse
A rebuild is much cheaper... My point is if you're going to post on NASIOC and ask for money because you don't have enough to fix your car you should probably let those people know that you are spending quite a bit more money than what is required to get the car running again. If you're that broke you don't need to be buying a several thousand dollar conversion.
...are ya just gonna take up this post to bag on me? If so, you could at least post it elsewhere like on that thread. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, please keep it out of a technical related thread. I feel I don't need to justify anything about my decision, but just to let you know- I justified this setup due to the fact that with my V7 engine, I will need some extra support from my tranny. I raised most of the money I need on my own and if you don't want to contribute or disagree with my post- fine, once again, your entitled to that opinion- just don't post it here.
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Old 03-08-2005, 12:00 PM   #6
linsavy
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The cheapest route is to delete ABS altogether. I thought early DCCD and ABS were not compatible anyway? I seriously doubt you would be well served by front only ABS. In a hard stop your fronts would be unlock but your rear would skid like an ebrake turn.
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Old 03-08-2005, 12:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linsavy
The cheapest route is to delete ABS altogether. I thought early DCCD and ABS were not compatible anyway? I seriously doubt you would be well served by front only ABS. In a hard stop your fronts would be unlock but your rear would skid like an ebrake turn.
Removal of the ABS via the fuse until I can get a complete rear setup has been an initial thought of mine- I just wanted some opinions from someone of a more technicaly inclined background where ABS in concerned. Thanks.
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Old 03-08-2005, 02:51 PM   #8
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Stop asking for money to mod your car d1ck. People contribute thinking that you are in a bind and need your tranny fixed. Yet you decide to use the money to buy a STi tranny instead.
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Old 03-08-2005, 02:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norseone
Stop asking for money to mod your car d1ck. People contribute thinking that you are in a bind and need your tranny fixed. Yet you decide to use the money to buy a STi tranny instead.
Thanks for the amazing insight. It's truly appreciated.
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Old 03-08-2005, 03:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyhorse
A rebuild is much cheaper... My point is if you're going to post on NASIOC and ask for money because you don't have enough to fix your car you should probably let those people know that you are spending quite a bit more money than what is required to get the car running again. If you're that broke you don't need to be buying a several thousand dollar conversion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norseone
Stop asking for money to mod your car d1ck. People contribute thinking that you are in a bind and need your tranny fixed. Yet you decide to use the money to buy a STi tranny instead.
Did you guys send him money? No? Then shutup. If he decides to use the money for a more permanent solution, instead of a temporary one like a rebuild which would probably give out again in time, so what!

This isn't even the right thread to be posting this crap in. Guru!

Last edited by nate49509; 03-08-2005 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 03-08-2005, 03:45 PM   #11
omahasubaru
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If you're rear sensors aren't hooked up, you won't have ABS anyway.

Your ABS light will be on and the entire ABS system will be disabled. You can't have front only.

When I did a drum to disk swap on my OBS a while back I didn't put the rear ABS sensors in the Legacy Turbo ('92) rear hubs immediately. This effectively disabled the ABS.

You have basically two options.
1) Modify your soon to be installed rear carriers/hubs to use your existing ABS sensors.
2) Live without ABS

There may be other options, but those I have no experience with and unlike others, won't speculate unless I know it as fact.
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Old 03-08-2005, 03:48 PM   #12
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[quote=omahasubaru]

1) Modify your soon to be installed rear carriers/hubs to use your existing ABS sensors.

QUOTE]

So is it possible to mount my ABS sensors to the rear hub assy? If so, looks I have to research that as well. Thank you very much for your input.
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Old 03-08-2005, 04:41 PM   #13
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I don't think the ABS system will remain functional without inputs from the rear speed sensors. The ABS system will report a trouble code and disable the entire system.

You can fit probably fit ABS by using the 2004 US STi components. You will need the rear hubs, tone rings, and the brake backing plates. The dust shields on the backing plates will be large diameter for the Brembo rotors but as long as they don't interfere with your wheels I don't think you will have a problem. The big question is whether your original wheel speed sensors are appropriate to fit with the backing plates (I am 95% certain they are) and the tone ring has the correct number of teeth. You will only know this for sure by comparison. If you can, find someone with a 2004 STi and check it out (2005 STi uses the larger wheel bolt pattern).

Using the DCCD system in the locked or close to lock positions will likely cause issues with the ABS so if you switch into one of these positions you should probably disable the ABS (adding a switch to do this will make your life easier). Also, tuning the rear clutch LSD too aggressive will also create the same issue....but generally the way these LSD's come from the factory isn't going to be too problematic for the ABS.

Personally, I would remove the ABS system in this situation. The R180 uses a 2-way LSD which provide slip limiting in decel as well as accel. This means the LSD will help to prevent wheel lockup. However, this LSD would need to be tuned a little more agressively in order to get the most out of it (increasing the initial torque and changing to a shallower ramp angle on the side plates). This combined with the DCCD in the locked or near lock position on slippery surfaces is going to negate the need for ABS in all but the most extreme situations.

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Old 03-08-2005, 04:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_RalliSpec
I don't think the ABS system will remain functional without inputs from the rear speed sensors. The ABS system will report a trouble code and disable the entire system.

You can fit probably fit ABS by using the 2004 US STi components. You will need the rear hubs, tone rings, and the brake backing plates. The dust shields on the backing plates will be large diameter for the Brembo rotors but as long as they don't interfere with your wheels I don't think you will have a problem. The big question is whether your original wheel speed sensors are appropriate to fit with the backing plates (I am 95% certain they are) and the tone ring has the correct number of teeth. You will only know this for sure by comparison. If you can, find someone with a 2004 STi and check it out (2005 STi uses the larger wheel bolt pattern).

Using the DCCD system in the locked or close to lock positions will likely cause issues with the ABS so if you switch into one of these positions you should probably disable the ABS (adding a switch to do this will make your life easier). Also, tuning the rear clutch LSD too aggressive will also create the same issue....but generally the way these LSD's come from the factory isn't going to be too problematic for the ABS.

Personally, I would remove the ABS system in this situation. The R180 uses a 2-way LSD which provide slip limiting in decel as well as accel. This means the LSD will help to prevent wheel lockup. However, this LSD would need to be tuned a little more agressively in order to get the most out of it (increasing the initial torque and changing to a shallower ramp angle on the side plates). This combined with the DCCD in the locked or near lock position on slippery surfaces is going to negate the need for ABS in all but the most extreme situations.

--Dave
RalliSpec
www.rallispec.com
Dave,
As always, I greatly appreciate your knowledgeable response. Looks like it's time for me to move on from ABS for awhile and see how much I like it. The ABS system in my car already has issues with the "failure to stop" on rough surfaces, so perhaps I may find this to be a good time to implement non-ABS. It would also seem that I need to look more into getting the LSD tuned- which is something I was not aware to be possibl;e. Shows how little I know eh? Thank you again.

damon
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Old 03-08-2005, 08:30 PM   #15
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Would it be possible to splice up the wiring to where when ABS is active in a hard stop the center diff switches to open?

If that is possible it would seem like a good solution; you'd be able to keep ABS and then also run the DCCD.

I dont think this would be a good track setup at all but would be good for emergencies on the street.
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Old 03-09-2005, 08:45 AM   #16
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GTScoob: I think for the time being, I am going to run without ABS- unless my exisisting equipment fits these hubs (doubtful). There are quite a few good ideas tho about being able to switch it on/off from within the cabin- I just don't think that is practical for my use though.
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