Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday March 4, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning > Other Engine Management

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-09-2005, 01:25 AM   #1
bboy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56468
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
04 Improved STI
Dirty White

Default Tuesdays with Phil......and the Element Hydra

The Hydra is just amazing. I drove while Phil tuned today for about three hours. The number of tools at your disposal is unheard of by me. You can log yes, but you can also track every spot that you touch in the fuel map and correlate that with the log. You can get a 2D map of the knock signal and see where the knock noise is and layer the knock threshold right on top of that field of numbers. Running an aggressive autotune, you can feel the fuel being pulled and tested as the car accelerates, then go back and look at the trace of every point in the fuel map that autotune "visited" highlighted on the 3D fuel map. The autotune literally carves a section out of the 3D map that you can see. Carve-->smooth-->carve some more. I got to see the AVCS map, and all I can say if I'm glad Phil tuned it and not me. It looks like the Cascade mountains from the air. My idle is not settling down near stock levels of around 800 RPM, amazing with such large injectors.

Anyone who thinks they can start from scratch and get the Hydra all smoothed out is either a god or crazy. You have voltage pulse width compensation, coil dwell compensation by RPM or by voltage, coolant temp compensation, air temp compensation, and A/C cut in. And then there is all the idle and start parameters: cranking enrichment, post start enrichment, PID idle control, and ISC valve PWM map. After all that tuning the fuel and spark maps seem like the easiest part.

I had a great time!!!
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
bboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 01:32 AM   #2
tmarcel
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 7555
Join Date: Jun 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Charlotte NC
Default

Haaah, a stand-alone maybe Sounds like you're happy with it.
tmarcel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 01:24 PM   #3
T3RMIN4L
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 37434
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: South Jersey
Default

awesome write-up bboy. now get ur arse to a dyno. edit: (or the track)

Last edited by T3RMIN4L; 03-09-2005 at 02:33 PM.
T3RMIN4L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 08:02 PM   #4
bboy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56468
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
04 Improved STI
Dirty White

Default

Dyno tomorrow with Phil. I've been corresponding with Richard Lamb about integrating water injection and the Hydra. I think we'll have a system that has four safeguard detection points that will feel back into the Hydra. If any of the safeguard points send a fault of error signal the Hydra will drop the fuel and spark tuning to accommodate the water injection problem.

I think with a solid non-WI base map from Phil's input and tuning, I can work on the WI tuning after he's gone.

I'm getting some of the pinout information of the Hydra for water injection, but there are still some electronic issues surrounding both the current limits of a injection driver and the frequency (Hz) at which the water injection driver operates. Phils looking into those questions and checking back with the Singapore engineer to make sure we are in "spec".

I did some more "carving" today with the autotune. I focused on low RPM high boost areas and let the autotune point me toward the fuel levels and then smoothed the map out afterwards. It's really nice to see where autotuning has "visited" in the fuel map. It's a form of logging, but when presented on a 3D fuel map it's much easier to picture what adjustment need to be made.
bboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 09:06 PM   #5
offset
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32636
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Dayton, OH
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza STi
Silver/Silver

Default

Is the WI setup going to be something that Phil turns into a 'kit'? I am really hoping that he can put something together for the rest of us Hydra owners that is a little more plugNplay than buying an Aquamist kit and integrating it or something. I am really looking forward to your results with the WI.

offset
offset is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 02:37 AM   #6
bboy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56468
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
04 Improved STI
Dirty White

Default

As much as possible I'm trying to integrate WI with no particular system in mind, however if you want WI as a 3D map by boost and RPM you'll probably have to buy a high speed valve from Aquamist. In terms of fault detection Aquamist is the best, but we can rig at least something for other systems.

I'm hung up on the "fault detection" because I don't want to worry about the water not flowing and the engine going way to lean.

I've got Phil and Richard as allies so I don't think it can go terrible wrong.

I have no interest in selling the kits, but I am motivated to see that integration with the Hydra is both simple, robust, and safe.

As soon as I can source the electrical parameters of the Hydra my whole system is wired and plumbed and ready to go.

Incidentally, I'm going to draw water from the intercooler water tank, but I am also going to retain the intercooler spray. I think that in the end you will have a choice of about three set ups that are increasingly sophisticated, much like Aquamist does. The exception will be that each system is run by the Hydra with either a 2D or 3D map that increases water flow by either straight RPM (2D), or by cross-referencing both boost and RPM (3D)--along with 3-4 fault detection modes.

I'll post the results and put up a "how to" page to inform anyone interested in mating the Hydra and WI.

BTW, there are not a ton of people with vast WI tuning experience and it's my opinion, and the opinion of a few others (who know better than I), that with some "non-traditional" approaches to tuning a great deal of power may be unleashed by the addition of water to combustion.
bboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 10:09 AM   #7
jblaine
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8512
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: St. Pete, FL
Vehicle:
2002 WRX chassis...
stage-infinity.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Anyone who thinks they can start from scratch and get the Hydra all smoothed out is either a god or crazy.
Not good to hear.
jblaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 12:09 PM   #8
antimullet
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44193
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Relocated to Raleigh, NC
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STi
Silver

Default

WHy are you going with water and not alky? Just a questin, as I know there are several cons such as flamability, hard on pumps/seals, cost, etc. But in the end, water does not burn, with alky could you not have better performance if thats what your looking for compared to a WI setup?

Just asking, cause they both look good to me, however, water is free and denatured alky is like 11 bucks a gallon so water looks good.


I would like to see a dyno comparison of the two side by side and see what setup can handle more boost, least knock, best performance, etc.

For the money it does look like water, but alot of guys like alky also.

Thanks,

Aaron
antimullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 12:32 PM   #9
Xman23
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 50224
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Leesburg, VA, C.S.A.
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
Silver

Default

Quote:
water does not burn
Oh yes it does!
Xman23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 12:42 PM   #10
cooter
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23258
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Tennessee
Vehicle:
2005 STi
White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xman23
Oh yes it does!
Only when it's boiling and you spill some on yourself...
cooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 01:46 PM   #11
wgknestrick
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 32576
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Stevens, PA
Vehicle:
04 STI

Default

Denatured alchohol is outrageouly overpriced. 1:1 Methanol/water mix is about the best you can get in an aquamist setup. Aquamist pumps and denat alchy is bad juju. Methanol is much cheaper than denat achy too, just harder to find. Methanol is about 3-5$ /gal while denat achy is $10.
wgknestrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 04:52 PM   #12
dwx
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8343
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:
2005 2012 Jeep
2013 DGM BRZ

Default

Methanol seems to be the tuning tool du jour of the EVO community now. Every tuner sells a "methanol injection kit" now it seems. They are injecting enough methanol that it mixes with the gas during combustion and effectively raises the octane amount. The guy selling the kits uses decent hardware so it can take the methanol. My only issue with injecting so much alcohol may be oil contamination and possibly corrosion of the cylinders/head.

I used water injection a couple years ago using the aquamist kit with the high-speed valve. 2C? maybe. I had the UTEC triggering it back then but went to a hobbes pressure switch later on, seemed to work pretty well.
dwx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2005, 11:57 PM   #13
T3RMIN4L
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 37434
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: South Jersey
Default

bump for updates/status of everyones water injection setups.
T3RMIN4L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 03:59 AM   #14
bboy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56468
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
04 Improved STI
Dirty White

Default

Ahh a blast from the past.

I'll be posting my WI set up next week after a trip to the dyno. Integration with the Hydra is impeccable. Phil's got a wiring harness in the works that will make things easier for everyone (I saw the prototype three weeks ago, so it can't be too far to production). I've got my car road tuned and the last thing I'm going to do before the dyno is to tweak the timing a bit more to work out the "with water" maps. I've already added 2-4 degrees to the timing across the upper load/RPM sites. My best guess is fuel is cooling air and chamber and slowing the burn rate somewhat. I've been using my dash EGT gauge, but now I want to bring in the header EGT probes' data and get the timing just right.

Here's a preview:
I'm running at an AFR or 13:1 or leaner from 4000 RPM on up (why over 12.5:1 we can discuss later). Not a bit of detonation to be found. I use the Hydra to ramp up water with RPM and load, but the total variance in water output is only about 2 fold. I'm running a "pre-turbo" jet into the intake. I'm waiting for the dyno numbers to find out just how much that has helped, but using AFR as a measure of total CFM (fuel stays constant, if AFR goes up, air must have entered the system) it looks like about 20% more air--that's a lot!! Like I said, I have pulled timing because my EGT was getting to be higher than usual. I added timing and the EGT dropped like it should, still the knock sensor shows nothing. I'm thinking of writing a little Excel script to compute torque and horsepower based on the Hydra logs to that I don't have to spend more $$ at the dyno. Tuning with the Hydra makes things a lot easier in general, and with the Auxiliary Fuel and Spark maps water injection is then just offsets to the Main Fuel and Spark maps. No water, or water system detects a fault---it defaults to the Main maps. Very cool!!

Dyno date is set for Monday July 18. I can't wait. I'll spill all the details then.

BTW I'm running 100% water, no methanol, in that way I believe the O2 sensor to be fairly reliable in the presence of water vapor (it's a natural by product of combustion after all). With methanol, you are introducing another fuel source and several other variables. I'm not against MeOH in any way, just looking for simplicity right now.
bboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 01:07 PM   #15
n2xlr8n
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18960
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Bama
Vehicle:
02 WRX MBP
It lives! ; )

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwx
Methanol seems to be the tuning tool du jour of the EVO community now. Every tuner sells a "methanol injection kit" now it seems.

I'm a fan of the $.99 windshield washer fluid, myself. Works for me.
n2xlr8n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 02:48 PM   #16
Element Tuning
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 54918
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Vehicle:
673 WHP Element
Tuning Pro Comp Engine

Default

Windshield washer fluid does the trick for me also compared to mixing my own with pure methanol. I don't know what the deal is around here but I can't find windshield washer fluid with the appropriate amount of methanol for less than $2.50 a gallon but that's still inexpensive.

Phil
www.elementtuning.com
Element Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 03:31 PM   #17
offset
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32636
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Dayton, OH
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza STi
Silver/Silver

Default

No worries about clogging up filters with glycerides or anything (I think that is what Richard L mentioned would be problematic for washer fluid use)?

offset
offset is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 04:05 PM   #18
Element Tuning
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 54918
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Vehicle:
673 WHP Element
Tuning Pro Comp Engine

Default

At the rate I'm consuming the mixture it's very unlikely the glycol would coagulate and clog anything but as a precaution, my pick up is not at the bottom of the tank. This way any build up would settle at the bottom but there's also a large filter before the pump.

If you're worried about it look at the bottom of you washer tank to see if thereís any build up. So far I've never seen anything more than blue or whatever discoloring but Iíve only seen this when the tank has been left to dry.

For slightly more money you can purchase a product called Heat in the yellow bottle and mix your own. This sells for .88c to $1 for 12 oz at Wal-Mart and Kmart. So far windshield washer fluid rated for -35C has worked equally well for me. If you donít mind the added expense or hassle then you should purchase methanol in bulk and mix it yourself.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
Element Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 10:32 PM   #19
turbo2ner
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 89385
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Loading...
Vehicle:
many most all
WRB/blk/blk/blk/slvr/wht

Default

Here is a list of places to buy Meth. Click around and also find an alky tuning section. http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=121500

(Phil, I'm one week away from start-up. Need help! Time for tuning. Please send me some avaliable dates for meeting up in MD. I'll trailer car up there.) turbo2nr@comcast.net
turbo2ner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 07:01 AM   #20
TheMadScientist
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23717
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Beverly, MA
Vehicle:
2005 Big red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
I'm running a "pre-turbo" jet into the intake. I'm waiting for the dyno numbers to find out just how much that has helped, but using AFR as a measure of total CFM (fuel stays constant, if AFR goes up, air must have entered the system) it looks like about 20% more air--that's a lot!!
How long have you been running the pre-turbo jet? Have you inspected the compressor wheel for pitting? I have read that the pre-turbo jet can make the compressor seem to be more efficient. You are saying that you think you got 20% more flow out of the turbo using a pre-turbo jet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
I'm running at an AFR or 13:1 or leaner from 4000 RPM on up (why over 12.5:1 we can discuss later).
Why so lean? I was tuning a WI setup a couple of weeks ago and found that going any leaner than ~12.5:1 would cause the EGT's to go down. I went from 13.5:1 to 11.5:1 and found that the EGT would peak right ~12-12.5:1.
To me that peak would mean best power, heat makes power.

TMS
TheMadScientist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 04:05 PM   #21
bboy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56468
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
04 Improved STI
Dirty White

Default

Erosion
Not long on the pre-turbo injection, < 500 miles. HotRod (Larry) has been doing it for thousands of miles. He testifies that pitting/erosion has not been a problem. The two confirmed cases that I know of with water injection pitting is the WWII turbo-prop and some more modern jet engine analysis. The problem with the WWII data is that the water was "streamed" into the engine, whereas we are introducing a finally atomized (near vapor) into the turbocharger. The modern jet data was framed in the context of replacement and cost vs benefit. In the end, they determined that the benefit out weighed the cost of slightly accelerated replacement time.

If I have to replace the compressor wheel every 20,000 miles (I'm moving to the rebuildable turbo soon) or replace the VF39 all together, I can live with that level of expense. I think the real worry here is catastrophic failure. I'm not too worried about that.

Lean Fueling
Alright I'm out on a limb here. I've leaned out the fueling for two reasons. One is Ed Haney's paper (www.chargedperformance.com). I'm realtively convinced that the more complete the combustion the better, and that water is participating in combustion as a catalyst of sorts for conversion form CO-->CO2. The second reason is the NACA data that SaabTuner once posted on NASIOC. At the very least there is very little, or no, penalty for running lean with water.

In contrast, conventional tuning says 12.5-13:1 is where best power occurs with some power loss as you go leaner. You can see the rich=power bias that in the NACA data and the contrast between w/water and w/o/water power curves is striking. Water injection basically eliminates the power loss associated with lean fueling.

Here is the thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=naca

Unfortunately the 150F data is not hosted anymore; that data probably better reflects the actual temp of a intercooled auto engine.

I'll tune it lean AND rich and throw it on the dyno. We'll find out if it matters quickly and replicate the NACA data (in a very limited way). The dyno data on Monday can't come soon enough.
bboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 04:40 PM   #22
TheMadScientist
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23717
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Beverly, MA
Vehicle:
2005 Big red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Erosion
Not long on the pre-turbo injection, < 500 miles. HotRod (Larry) has been doing it for thousands of miles. He testifies that pitting/erosion has not been a problem. The two confirmed cases that I know of with water injection pitting is the WWII turbo-prop and some more modern jet engine analysis. The problem with the WWII data is that the water was "streamed" into the engine, whereas we are introducing a finally atomized (near vapor) into the turbocharger. The modern jet data was framed in the context of replacement and cost vs benefit. In the end, they determined that the benefit out weighed the cost of slightly accelerated replacement time.
Thanks for the input I have only talked to 2 people that have acually have experience with the pre turbo injection. I have done a lot of reading on the subject. It seems that the erosion caused by the water mist is about the same as slight cavitation on a boat prop. The water will wear the compressor no doubt, I was just wondering how much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
If I have to replace the compressor wheel every 20,000 miles (I'm moving to the rebuildable turbo soon) or replace the VF39 all together, I can live with that level of expense. I think the real worry here is catastrophic failure. I'm not too worried about that.
Those are my thoughts on the compressor wear. The VF39 is cheap to replace with a pull off unit. I just didn't want to jump in with pre-turbo and my $1200 turbo. I don't think catastrophic failure is something to worry about. Maybe an inspection every 10k-20k would not be a bad idea just to make sure the wear is not excessive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Lean Fueling
Alright I'm out on a limb here. I've leaned out the fueling for two reasons. One is Ed Haney's paper (www.chargedperformance.com). I'm realtively convinced that the more complete the combustion the better, and that water is participating in combustion as a catalyst of sorts for conversion form CO-->CO2. The second reason is the NACA data that SaabTuner once posted on NASIOC. At the very least there is very little, or no, penalty for running lean with water.

In contrast, conventional tuning says 12.5-13:1 is where best power occurs with some power loss as you go leaner. You can see the rich=power bias that in the NACA data and the contrast between w/water and w/o/water power curves is striking. Water injection basically eliminates the power loss associated with lean fueling.

Here is the thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=naca

Unfortunately the 150F data is not hosted anymore; that data probably better reflects the actual temp of a intercooled auto engine.

I'll tune it lean AND rich and throw it on the dyno. We'll find out if it matters quickly and replicate the NACA data (in a very limited way). The dyno data on Monday can't come soon enough.
I am very curious about your dyno results. My thinking on the car I tuned was that the higher EGT at 12.5:1 was an indication of the peak power A/F everything else kept the same. I have no dyno to tune with so I could be way off on that thinking. On the chargespeed site they quoted many sources saying "best power is in the 12:1 to 13:1" and there was one that said "14:1 to 12:1". I had all ways thought that the peak power was in the 12:1 to 12.5:1 range. Those other ranges that are quoted are huge swings in A/F. The car I was tuning will be going to the dyno in about a week. I am going to go and try the peak EGT map and then start to lean it out. I know I can go to ~13.7:1 without knock. I can probably go even further.

TMS
TheMadScientist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 06:53 PM   #23
Element Tuning
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 54918
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Vehicle:
673 WHP Element
Tuning Pro Comp Engine

Default

What youíll find is that most tuners or guides give you a general rule of thumb. Itís basically, ďif you back me in a corner and force me to answer then hereís the simplest answer I can give.Ē A 12.5 AFR to achieve maximum power is a general rule of thumb that isnít specific to just the AFR but instead factors in octane, ignition advance, and boost pressure. So if you read between the lines maximum HP itís based on the knock limits of the fuel being used. Depending on the setup 11:1 can give you maximum achievable power given the octane of the fuel used.

Water injection reduces knock so much that these general rules of thumb no longer apply and excess fuel is not required to quench detonation. If detonation was not an issue, then maximum power could be made around 14.7:1 AFR. Remember it takes 14.7 parts of air to burn 1 part fuel completely. Think of how you tune a car under very light load, you pack as much as 45 degrees of ignition timing, and you run the AFR at 14.7:1. Fuel economy is maximized along with power but any leaner and you can feel the power drop off on a Subaru engine.

Now, tuning to 14.7:1 isnít always possible even with water injection as you still need to control your egts and detonation. For instance on my car which is around 475 whp on pump fuel is making maximum power around 12.0:1 AFR but if I can increase the amount of water/methanol I will be able to go leaner. Most likely I will just add more boost pressure until it starts to detonate.

In Trentís case he is limited by his turbocharger and therefore to make more power he must add timing and lean out the AFR which is not as effective as increasing boost pressure.

Hope this helps.

Phil
www.elementtuning.com
Element Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2005, 10:10 AM   #24
bboy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56468
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
04 Improved STI
Dirty White

Default

bboy=Trent

I agree with Phil that increasing boost is not going to add much to my cause. As my turbo moves out of the efficiency range it's just blowing hot air.

Here are some interesting data points for those of you considering the pre-turbo water injection. Spraying water into the turbo with no other changes to the tuning yielded:

AFR 11:1-->12.8 (if the boost psi is matched)
Boost psi 17.5 peak --> 15.5 psi (boost control solenoid airflow is set same, but there is more air to flow (cooler, lower pressure))

So, at equivalent psi, AFR is showing 15% more air. Fueling is slighly varied, but no where near a 15% variation, maybe 1% difference in fuel. After tweaking the boost control to raise boost back up to pre-WI psi, the amount of air compressed looks to be ~20% more. I'm saying that the turbo is compressing more air with the water injected "pre-turbo". If the pressure is equivalent (psi) and the AFR indicates more air combusted, that air must be cooler, denser air entering the cylinder.

BTW, intake air temp (IAT) has not changed. I'm injecting the water just past the air filter, it then flows past the MAF (where IAT is measured).

In general more air=more power.

I can talk more about the theory of how I think "pre-turbo" WI works. There was a ton of debate on the Aquamist waterinjection forum and lots of great input from good minds and several experimentalists. I've kept reading and asking questions, and I've got a pretty good picture of how it might be that a turbo's "effective size" could be increased by including water droplets in the air during compression.

Last edited by bboy; 07-14-2005 at 10:16 AM.
bboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 04:18 AM   #25
Richard L
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 85153
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sussex England
Vehicle:
2004 Citroen Picasso
Silver

Default

Air flow will continue to increase beyond the ideal efficiency island, it just means the "loss" of efficiency is translated into hotter charge. If you have a good intercooler or WI, you can recover some more useful air mass.

More power is produced when the timing is approaching MBT and ideal a/f ratio for that engine setup. The AUDI FSI racing engine runs between 13.6-16:1 a/f ratio. But for some conventional port injection engine, the a/f ratio is between 12.5:1 to 13:1 to guarantee all the oxygen is used up.

Several tuning techniques allow the engine to operate closer to the MBT timing. High octane fuel is one easy way and followed by WI and fuel dumping. Current tuning trend is dumping fuel but some oxygen is being robbed by formation of carbon monoxide exiting the exhaust.

WI is not an easy to implement without the help of a powerful management but Hydra is opening this option where other tuning tool still reluctant to offer that extra channel.
Richard L is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Running The Element Hydra with Windows Vista Element Tuning Other Engine Management 60 01-20-2011 12:03 PM
What's the deal with Myspace and the like? Layman Off-Topic 22 12-30-2005 10:57 AM
what is it with wimmen and the home and garden channe? svek Off-Topic 26 07-20-2005 03:42 PM
OK what's the deal with cops and the Install Fest? Necromancer Bay Area Impreza Club Forum -- BAIC 17 05-29-2001 09:30 PM
('93-'01) What's the rule with AWD and the snow? myko011 Impreza Forum 29 05-10-2001 01:30 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.