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Old 02-07-2005, 01:32 PM   #26
Derbagger
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the rest of the world makes do with a 2.0l WRX and a 2.0l STi.
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Old 02-07-2005, 01:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncros
IF they do put a 2.5L in the WRX, even making 250 hp (basically the legacy GT engine), and IF it's priced anywhere near the current 2.0L WRX, I would think thats going to make a bunch of current STi owners somewhat peeved, and perhaps take sales away from the new ('06) STi..the STi is and would remain a different car (transmission, suspension), but IMO what really sets it apart right now from the WRX (and justifies the extra $$) is the engine.

Oh well, I guess it's wait and see, like others have said.

Syncros
You realize that the "original" JDM WRX and STi version 4,5 and 6 were rated at the exact same hp figures, right? The only WRX during those years that wasn't rated at 280 ps was the WRX wagon (250 ps). Now the ratings might've been simply that, but still... food for thought.

-Mike.
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Old 02-07-2005, 02:19 PM   #28
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Whoa, another "my dealer said" thread... color me surprised...
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Old 02-07-2005, 02:45 PM   #29
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Uhhhh........does anybody remember before the STi came out and there was a rumor about it having a 2.5L? The general consensus was "no way" would Subaru put a 2.5 in. Remember Worm.....our inside source saying the STi would have a 2.0 and "you can take that to the bank". My point is, Subaru has a tendency to suprise everybody and I think we will see more in terms of power and frankly I think the WRX/STi figures are closer to the truth (crossing fingers) than not.
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Old 02-07-2005, 02:46 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarvis
270 out of the 2.5 seems entirely possible. The 400 would require an engine we haven't seen yet, so yes, that's completely rumour.
Just wondering since I haven't followed subaru for too long. But when the USDM STI came out, did people hear rumors of a 2.5l engine in the making, or was the STI revealed with the new 2.5l motor all together?
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Old 02-07-2005, 02:56 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ_STI
Just wondering since I haven't followed subaru for too long. But when the USDM STI came out, did people hear rumors of a 2.5l engine in the making, or was the STI revealed with the new 2.5l motor all together?
It was a fairly well-guarded secret to the last. Mitsubishi didnt see it coming I think.

ss
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Old 02-07-2005, 03:21 PM   #32
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In Canada, there is currently roughly a $10-12K difference in the MSRPs between the WRX and the STi. For the mechanicals and other bits you get for the extra $$, IMO it's well worth it.

I wasn't aware that the older generation JDM WRX's and STi's had the same hp ratings...but how far apart were they in price?

My point is, if the '06 WRX comes with a 2.5T, the price gap to the STi will have to close one way or the other. Sure, the STi will still have the 6MT, the DCCD awd system, 17" bbs wheels, some body parts, and the bigger brakes, but for the average consumer looking at a WRX 2.5T, are those differences enough to justify the extra $10-12K (CAD)?

Thanks,

Syncros
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Old 02-07-2005, 03:54 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HB_Dad
Whoa, another "my dealer said" thread... color me surprised...
Yeah if someone had credible sources other than "the guys at the dealer told me such and such" I might be more apt to believe it. Again I'll believe it when I see it.

I do hope it's true though.

-faast
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Old 02-07-2005, 03:56 PM   #34
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im pretty sure the USDM market will get the 2.5 turbo in the WRX.. good way to save money and a simple way to upgrade the WRX from 227-250
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Old 02-07-2005, 03:58 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarvis
270 out of the 2.5 seems entirely possible. The 400 would require an engine we haven't seen yet, so yes, that's completely rumour.
actually, the B11s concept was a 3.0-H6 tt, @ 394hp.... we just haven't technically 'seen' it off the stage.... yes, there ARE rumors of a turbo H6 coming..the blokes across the pond started talking rumors of an STi w/ the H6 turbo when we went 2.5l. i'm one of several that's heard the wrx is going 2.5l, most likely from the LGT. that would cut costs and streamline the engine lines, as well. it makes sense. mitsu is coming with around 320+/- in the EVO9, not 400.... the STi 'should' come in around 330-350ish.

..of course, i'm just another 'dealership guy', and only hear and speak of rumors.
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Old 02-07-2005, 04:02 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncros
In Canada, there is currently roughly a $10-12K difference in the MSRPs between the WRX and the STi. For the mechanicals and other bits you get for the extra $$, IMO it's well worth it.

I wasn't aware that the older generation JDM WRX's and STi's had the same hp ratings...but how far apart were they in price?

My point is, if the '06 WRX comes with a 2.5T, the price gap to the STi will have to close one way or the other. Sure, the STi will still have the 6MT, the DCCD awd system, 17" bbs wheels, some body parts, and the bigger brakes, but for the average consumer looking at a WRX 2.5T, are those differences enough to justify the extra $10-12K (CAD)?

Thanks,

Syncros
Yes, becuase the STi also comes with better interior, quicker steering, better springs/shocks, aluminum control arms, better suspension in the rear, better diffs, a stiffer chassis, intercooler water sprayer, and many other odds and ends.
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Old 02-07-2005, 04:57 PM   #37
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just to add water to the fire

what motivation would subaru have to change the wrx from a 2 to a 2.5
lets see:

loss of ulev
loss of destinction between model lines
loss of gas milage
greater potential of transmission trouble
why change a car that is already selling well?

on the other hand i am suprised that the WRX hasn't seen a change to an avcs head
that might be enough to ge the 250hp # people are looking for

Quote:
Originally Posted by syncros
In Canada, there is currently roughly a $10-12K difference in the MSRPs between the WRX and the STi. For the mechanicals and other bits you get for the extra $$, IMO it's well worth it.
syncros make a good point even with out knowing it
95% of the consumers don't know and the adverage dealer is too stupid to know the diff between the sti and the wrx
saying it has a 2.5 vs a 2.0 is easy (bigger is better)
most consumers don't want to know all the technical differences between the two .. and yes they are very far apart espically on the 05 sti

Last edited by Jaxx; 02-07-2005 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 02-07-2005, 05:22 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
just to add water to the fire

what motivation would subaru have to change the wrx from a 2 to a 2.5
lets see:

loss of ulev
loss of destinction between model lines
loss of gas milage
greater potential of transmission trouble
why change a car that is already selling well?

on the other hand i am suprised that the WRX hasn't seen a change to an avcs head
that might be enough to ge the 250hp # people are looking for



syncros make a good point even with out knowing it
95% of the consumers don't know and the adverage dealer is too stupid to know the diff between the sti and the wrx
saying it has a 2.5 vs a 2.0 is easy (bigger is better)
most consumers don't want to know all the technical differences between the two .. and yes they are very far apart espically on the 05 sti
I was thinking the same thing. What's the old saying, horsepower sells cars and torque wins races? Except for the enthusiasts, your average WRX/STi buyer isn't going to see the distinction between the WRX and the STi any farther than the horsepower and torque numbers. If the WRX really gets the 2.5T with 270 hp and the STi doesn't change, there's not going to be much distinction between it and the STi, to the average buyer.

I could also see the WRX getting the 2.5T but not with 270 hp, maybe 240-250ish, somewhere close to the Leg GT.
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Old 02-07-2005, 05:33 PM   #39
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Seems to me what Subaru has to do to revive WRX sales is to get the performance up substantially over the Legacy GT. A 2.5 with 250hp and upgraded tranny, and a new chassis with improved handling, all with weight no greater than the current WRX, should easily do that. People burying a new WRX don't want a luxury sedan like the Legacy GT outperforming their racy looking rally car. Also, how hard can it be to get the STI up to 325 hp, for example, which would keep it will above a WRX. If Subaru can't get that kind of development out of the STI motor they should quit.
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Old 02-07-2005, 05:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
just to add water to the fire

what motivation would subaru have to change the wrx from a 2 to a 2.5
lets see:

loss of ulev
loss of destinction between model lines
loss of gas milage
greater potential of transmission trouble
why change a car that is already selling well?

on the other hand i am suprised that the WRX hasn't seen a change to an avcs head
that might be enough to ge the 250hp # people are looking for



syncros make a good point even with out knowing it
95% of the consumers don't know and the adverage dealer is too stupid to know the diff between the sti and the wrx
saying it has a 2.5 vs a 2.0 is easy (bigger is better)
most consumers don't want to know all the technical differences between the two .. and yes they are very far apart espically on the 05 sti
Well they would have a lot to gain to change to a 2.5 liter block in the standard WRX. the main being there whole lineup excluding a few cars would have a 2.5l, the WRX is one of 2 in the lineup that use the 2.0l. If they converted to a 2.5, they wouldn't need as many parts at the dealer, and manufacturing plants, if everything had the same platform.
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Old 02-07-2005, 05:49 PM   #41
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Remember, though, that Imprezas are made in Japan, so I don't see making 2.0 engines as a big deal. Probably they just want a low-end torque boost which the WRX could really use.
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Old 02-07-2005, 06:00 PM   #42
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Who says it has to be 2.0L or 2.5L? Why not bring back the 2.2L turbo motor? It seems like a possible solution to bring the WRX power up to become more competitive, while leaving the 2.5L displacement to cover the flagship luxury and performance models (Legacy GT & STi).
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Old 02-07-2005, 06:19 PM   #43
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Subaru has the 2.5L already being mass produced--I am sure they would maximize economies of scale to bump up performance, for the U.S. market at least. I did find it interesting that the current hot Impreza in the UK, featured in the recent EVO car performance of the year comparo, is the Type 25--a 2.5 with 350hp. That car was described as "stupendously, stupidly, awesomely fast..it's the best Impreza I've ever driven". Sure, it's a specialty car, but I bet if the Europeans didn't have such high taxes on motors over 2 liters and high gas costs, they would be more than happy to have a 2.5 turbo in an Impreza.
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Old 02-07-2005, 07:03 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackfeetVI
The US spec WRX could have a 2.5 and the rest of the planet gets the 2.0 motor
It really makes a lot of sense moving to 2500cc's along with the rest of the US lineup....
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Old 02-07-2005, 08:18 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
just to add water to the fire

what motivation would subaru have to change the wrx from a 2 to a 2.5
lets see:

loss of ulev
loss of destinction between model lines
loss of gas milage
greater potential of transmission trouble
why change a car that is already selling well?
Well, let's address these issues one by one.

I doubt that Subaru has sold a single WRX because it was rated ULEV, but even with an increase to 2.5, they could still get the car to pass by maintaining a 3 cat system.

I don't really see a loss of distinction. "here we have a WRX it has a 2.5 liter turbocharged engine with (250-270) hp, then beside it is the WRX STI, see the big wing. It uses the same engine, but with a larger turbocharger and produces (330-400 depending), plus it has lots of other performance oriented additions as well."

With proper gearing, a 2.5 liter WRX could get just as good of gas mileage as the current model. The STIs gas mileage is low because of the incredibly low gearing the car has.

Subaru doesn't seem too concerned about tranny trouble with the Legacy GT.

The Impreza WRX has steadily declined in sales in the US since the year of it's release.


I personally would not be surprised at all to see a 250-270 hp WRX hit the streets with the next model, nor would it bother me. I also wouldn't be surprised to see STI hp in excess of 330.

One of the things that you have to understand about SOA is that they like to keep things very simple. They generally like to keep no more than 3 engine options available in their product line, and for a while after the WRX came out, they were right at their goal with the EJ20, EJ253 and EZ30. Now, they have the EJ20, EJ253, EZ30, and three variations of the EJ255/257 turbo engine. My guess would be that we will see the new Forester XT, Legacy GT, WRX and Baja Turbo (if it survives, all share the same drivetrain, with possibly an ECU tune being the only difference. This would bring Subaru back down to 4 engines, with one being a slight variant.
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Old 02-07-2005, 08:42 PM   #46
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Something else to add to the debate....

Currently (in canada, all within $500) the Legacy (base model) cost the same as the Impreza RS Sport package while the Legacy GT costs the same as the WRX. With the 2 cars priced so close to each other i'm fairly sure that impreza sales must be hurting.

Think about it this way, people that are buying RS's would seriously consider the legacy as it gives you a lot more car for the money (very nice family car). At the same time the "average" consumer shops for performance by hp and torque numbers. Once again the legacy gt wins out over the WRX. While i'm sure the WRX handles better and has a lot more "goodies" the average joe is likely going to take the car with better straight line performance and more comfortiable/bigger interior.

Now, while this is true in Canada, i'm sure it is very different in the states (since up in canada subaru's pricing is kinda screwed up..... ie.. USDM STi is approx the same $$ as CAD WRX once you do the currency conversion). Cars like the Toyota Matrix XRS and the rest of the "hot imports" are priced within 3-4k in the states compaired to the WRX while it's over 10k difference up here in canada..
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Old 02-07-2005, 08:51 PM   #47
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There is NO WAY WRX will have more hp than Legacy...
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Old 02-07-2005, 08:57 PM   #48
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I agree totally..
My guess same engine rated @ 245hp..


Quote:
Originally Posted by FaastLegacy

I could also see the WRX getting the 2.5T but not with 270 hp, maybe 240-250ish, somewhere close to the Leg GT.
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:33 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amdmaxx
There is NO WAY WRX will have more hp than Legacy...

Why not? It has had more horsepower than the Legacy since it's introduction, right up until about 8 months ago. And I really don't buy that it would hurt Legacy sales, because they are not aimed at the same consumer.
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Old 02-07-2005, 10:03 PM   #50
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They better not make the 06 WRX faster than my car!!!!!
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