Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday August 30, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-07-2005, 10:11 PM   #51
amdmaxx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 31665
Join Date: Jan 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Northern NJ, USA
Vehicle:
2006 Saab 9-2x Aero
Black

Default

^^^^^^^ This is exactly why..
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
amdmaxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 10:28 PM   #52
Achilles38WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4419
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Carol Stream, IL
Vehicle:
2002 S2K - 2013 ISP
i don't have a wrx

Default

i dont see why the wrx could'nt have a higher number in the horsepower column than the legacy. even if it had the same number, it could still be faster if it weighed less.
Achilles38WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 10:59 PM   #53
Jon [in CT]
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 2992
Join Date: Nov 2000
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Connecticut, USA
Vehicle:
02 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
just to add water to the fire
Do you mean vodka to what you're already drinking?
Quote:
what motivation would subaru have to change the wrx from a 2 to a 2.5
lets see:

loss of ulev
Given that the WRX in the US has never been ULEV-compliant in any state, I'd guestimate that a collosal amount of time and bandwidth has been wasted on discussing your "facts."
Jon [in CT] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 11:38 PM   #54
Ghost Rider
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70346
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
2011 WRX
Lightning Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT]
Do you mean vodka to what you're already drinking?Given that the WRX in the US has never been ULEV-compliant in any state, I'd guestimate that a collosal amount of time and bandwidth has been wasted on discussing your "facts."
you know, i was thinking the same thing. If it was ULEV it would have the sticker on the window indicating it. ****, in these days car manufacturers do anything they can to pimp their ULEV cars.

Are there any turbo cars that make ULEV?
Ghost Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 01:12 AM   #55
coolbluelb
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 47014
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: VB
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT
Garnet Red

Default

Poor efficiency off-boost due to manditorily lower compression ratio prohibits ULEV turbos. Maybe direct-injection can have a positive affect in this area in the future.
coolbluelb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 08:24 AM   #56
palpullero
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21170
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Vermont
Vehicle:
1992 SVX, 2005 STi
Satin Pearl, CGM, 03 Baja

Default Price

Being a Subaru enthusiast, I also would like to see the WRX have a bump in HP and a 400HP STi. But as I look at the MSRP prices of 2004 vs. 2005 of the STi, I doubt a 2.5L, 250HP WRX will happen, and a 400HP Sti even less. This is how I see it: 2004 STi: $31,670 (MSRP+dest.) 2005 STi: $32,870 (MSRP+dest.). $1,200 more for the 2005 with some features like radio, auto A/C, helical front diff and other things. But if they went ahead and bumped the HP to 400, your STi will now be in the upper 30's, maybe over $40K after taxes and everything else. At that price range people would probably be buying more luxurious cars and give up a bit of pocket-rocket performance (unless you are going for a Z06 or the like). The same goes for the WRX: add a 2.5L, 250HP in it and you got a WRX that will probably not sell for less than $27K. I have a feeling the numbers of units sold would drop significantly if this happened (besides, Subaru may ffind it hard to sell enough Tribecas - only time will tell). Since buyers are now used to the WRX being around $23K new and the STI being around $33K new, deviating from these numbers might turn off probable buyers. Don't get me wrong: the WRX and STi will have more HP, but it will be a gradual increase over the years. But Subaru, like the rest of the manufacturers, know that the profit is not in the price so much as in the numbers of units sold. Then again, Subaru likes to surprise, so for that matter I may be totally wrong (which in this case I wouldn't mind ).

Cheers
palpullero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 08:40 AM   #57
DuoMaxwell
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 24565
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Misawa Japan
Vehicle:
2000 V6 STi RA #856
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amdmaxx
There is NO WAY WRX will have more hp than Legacy...

I can't see why not but then the USDM does do some funny things!!
DuoMaxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 09:35 AM   #58
HaTReD
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 25256
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The dumbest place in the world
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by palpullero
This is how I see it: 2004 STi: $31,670 (MSRP+dest.) 2005 STi: $32,870 (MSRP+dest.). $1,200 more for the 2005 with some features like radio, auto A/C, helical front diff and other things. But if they went ahead and bumped the HP to 400, your STi will now be in the upper 30's, maybe over $40K after taxes and everything else.
you can't base sticker prices on horsepower numbers. base price is not (hp x 100). it is more likely that subaru would take a car that makes 227 hp @ 24k (roughly) and change it into something like 240-250 hp @ 24.5-25.5k. of course, cost increases can only be determined based on profit margins. if subaru could swap motors at roughly the same cost, give more performance, keep the price the same AND increase sales by 5-15%, then they are making their shareholders happy. </speculation>
HaTReD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 10:57 AM   #59
Calamity Jesus
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: in a minefield of caddishness.
Vehicle:
1984 "Skeletor from
"He-Man"

Default

Turboed Legacies (sold alongside the WRX) have always made more power than the WRX in the rest of the world.. lets try to think before posting.

A 2.5L engine with off-the-shelf parts would do several things:
  • Make future service cheaper for the SOA dealer network
  • Reduce the build/assembly cost by reducing the number of unique components
  • Potentially increase fuel mileage
    • Larger displacement does not mean lower gas mileage. In fact, a higher compression motor running less boost from an appropriately sized turbocharger could give more torque down low, a midrange punch, and high rev tunability.... all while providing similar -and possibly better- fuel mileage and longer engine life.
  • Make a daring enough move in the sport compact market to put the WRX on top again for the GD chassis's final stage.
Calamity Jesus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 11:24 AM   #60
palpullero
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21170
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Vermont
Vehicle:
1992 SVX, 2005 STi
Satin Pearl, CGM, 03 Baja

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaTReD
you can't base sticker prices on horsepower numbers. base price is not (hp x 100). it is more likely that subaru would take a car that makes 227 hp @ 24k (roughly) and change it into something like 240-250 hp @ 24.5-25.5k. of course, cost increases can only be determined based on profit margins. if subaru could swap motors at roughly the same cost, give more performance, keep the price the same AND increase sales by 5-15%, then they are making their shareholders happy. </speculation>
HaTRed, I am not basing sticker price on horsepower numbers nor multiplying HP x 100. What I am trying to say is that price will increase significantly if the WRX goes to a 2.5L base and the STi gets a 400HP boost, a price range that might hurt Subaru more than help it. If I am not mistaken, the MSRP of a 2002 WRX vs. a 2004 WRX went up by $1,000 or more for the same displacement and power output (STi, with same power plant + new options went up $1,200), so the 2.5L will definitely add more $$$ to the price, and above $25.5K IMHO.
palpullero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 12:26 PM   #61
Oldnslow
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4572
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Seattle,Washington,USA
Vehicle:
2015 WRX
WRB

Default

Subaru could easily play around with different ECU's to tune the 2.5 turbo anywhere they want (though I don't see the big deal about why a WRX would have to be less powerful than a Legacy GT). What will be critical, and more problematic, in my view is the weight. If they keep the WRX at about 3000 lb. it should be a blast. Let it creep up to near Legacy range, and you can forget it IMHO.
Oldnslow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 12:31 PM   #62
GuyLR
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21811
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:
2003 WRX Wag/01 OBS
WRB and SM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by palpullero
HaTRed, I am not basing sticker price on horsepower numbers nor multiplying HP x 100. What I am trying to say is that price will increase significantly if the WRX goes to a 2.5L base and the STi gets a 400HP boost, a price range that might hurt Subaru more than help it. If I am not mistaken, the MSRP of a 2002 WRX vs. a 2004 WRX went up by $1,000 or more for the same displacement and power output (STi, with same power plant + new options went up $1,200), so the 2.5L will definitely add more $$$ to the price, and above $25.5K IMHO.
The price will go up even if there is no change to the driveline from the current WRX. That goes for every other model too simply because the value of the dollar has fallen so much since the current models were priced. All import competitors models will go up too so get ready for sticker shock. If they are going to have to charge more then the best market strategy they can follow is to make the customer think they are getting more, i.e Here's a new more powerful 2.5L WRX instead of a 2.0L".

About the cost of change from 2.0 to 2.5L Turbo, it absolutely makes sense becuase it allows FHI to build more of the same basic engine and thus amortize their developement costs quicker. The 2.0 has long since been paid for. Why do you think they have already stuck the 2.5 in so many models, Forester, Baja, Legacy and STi? The actual manufacturing cost of the 2.5 vs. the 2.0 has got to be negligible because they are essentially the same. Roughly the same materials and number of parts, same machining and assembly steps. The area they have to write down is the engineering time and certification costs. It's the right step for the USDM market to put some juice back into WRX sales.
GuyLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 09:27 PM   #63
SonicJLee
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 33974
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Marlton, NJ
Vehicle:
2004 Subaru WRX STI
PSM

Default

It's funny that people talk about how the STi and WRX will be too similar if they both had 2.5L engines. Look at the 350z: There are five trim lines and the price of the base model is ~$26,500 while the track model comes in around $35k. All five models have the same engine and interior (with the exception of leather in the touring model) yet there are many people that buy the track model. I for one, made a downpayment on a track model and almost traded my WRX in for it. I wouldn't buy any of the other models because I wanted the Brembo brakes. The RX-8 has a similarly large difference in price between the base and loaded models.

I think that the STi would still sell even if the WRX had 270 - 280 hp. It's just like how some people will still pay the premium for an EVO MR rather than just wait for the 2005 EVO GSR which will have mostly everything the MR has except for the aluminum roof and 6spd tranny. Some people just like knowing that they have the top-of-the-line model of a particular car.

Joe Lee
SonicJLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 09:48 PM   #64
STi-BOD-
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 78539
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: IL.
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru STi
K&N Typhoon HKS CarbonTi

Default

if the 06 sti can beat the evo9 then ima be happy. and from the info ive seen on the 9 subaru has some work cut out for em.
STi-BOD- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 03:41 AM   #65
MattDell
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 16803
Join Date: Mar 2002
Chapter/Region: International
Location: London, England
Default

I'll just be happy when they finally put 17" wheels back on the RS/WRX.


-Matt
MattDell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 10:16 AM   #66
fliz
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 30342
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: #blp
Default

Have any dealers said that the 400 HP STi is an Impreza STi?

I could see the H6T (or TT) pumping out 400 HP in a Legacy STi.

And given the way Subaru is pimping their 2.5T in every model line, it's only a matter of time before the USDM WRX is 2.5T. Whether it's this year or next...the 2.0's days are numbered in the US.
fliz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 10:50 AM   #67
coolbluelb
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 47014
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: VB
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT
Garnet Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicJLee
It's funny that people talk about how the STi and WRX will be too similar if they both had 2.5L engines. Look at the 350z: There are five trim lines and the price of the base model is ~$26,500 while the track model comes in around $35k. All five models have the same engine and interior (with the exception of leather in the touring model) yet there are many people that buy the track model. I for one, made a downpayment on a track model and almost traded my WRX in for it. I wouldn't buy any of the other models because I wanted the Brembo brakes. The RX-8 has a similarly large difference in price between the base and loaded models.

I think that the STi would still sell even if the WRX had 270 - 280 hp. It's just like how some people will still pay the premium for an EVO MR rather than just wait for the 2005 EVO GSR which will have mostly everything the MR has except for the aluminum roof and 6spd tranny. Some people just like knowing that they have the top-of-the-line model of a particular car.

Joe Lee
Ditto, I have also used the Nissan analogy to engine application. Doing away with the 2.0l in the US market will distill Subaru down to two basic power plants, the 2.5l and the H6, both of which (unlike the 2.0l) are built in the States. As to the STi/WRX relationship, I would certainly consider a 270 HP, 2.5l powered, 5-speed WRX with Halogens instead of HID's if the price came in $4000 to $6000 under the STi.
coolbluelb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 11:17 AM   #68
wrxpeed
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 49958
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in your mom's pants...and MN
Vehicle:
'03 Cobra DSG
SOLD '02 WRB WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolbluelb
Ditto, I have also used the Nissan analogy to engine application. Doing away with the 2.0l in the US market will distill Subaru down to two basic power plants, the 2.5l and the H6, both of which (unlike the 2.0l) are built in the States. As to the STi/WRX relationship, I would certainly consider a 270 HP, 2.5l powered, 5-speed WRX with Halogens instead of HID's if the price came in $4000 to $6000 under the STi.
...And you still have the handling, tranny and brakes that the standard WRX woulnd't have, so STi becomes mainly a handling/braking package, which a lot of other companies use to differentiate trim packages, instead of a drast change in engine/power.
wrxpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 12:45 PM   #69
GuyLR
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21811
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:
2003 WRX Wag/01 OBS
WRB and SM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolbluelb
Ditto, I have also used the Nissan analogy to engine application. Doing away with the 2.0l in the US market will distill Subaru down to two basic power plants, the 2.5l and the H6, both of which (unlike the 2.0l) are built in the States. As to the STi/WRX relationship, I would certainly consider a 270 HP, 2.5l powered, 5-speed WRX with Halogens instead of HID's if the price came in $4000 to $6000 under the STi.
SIA is a vehicle assembly plant but does not manufacture engines. All of the engines, 3.0, 2.5 and 2.0 come from Japan.
GuyLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 12:52 PM   #70
FaastLegacy
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 11671
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyLR
SIA is a vehicle assembly plant but does not manufacture engines. All of the engines, 3.0, 2.5 and 2.0 come from Japan.
And Imprezas are built exclusively in Japan though USDM Bajas, Tribecas, Outbacks, some Legacies and Foresters are built in the states. Even if the engines were built in the states, they'd still have to send them across the ocean to be assembled with the Imprezas and then sent back over here which makes no sense at all.
FaastLegacy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 01:58 PM   #71
Mike Wevrick
RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 24654
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: saraseager.com
Vehicle:
1957 Taggart Comet
atlasshruggedpart1.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fliz
Have any dealers said that the 400 HP STi is an Impreza STi?

I could see the H6T (or TT) pumping out 400 HP in a Legacy STi.
Excellent question! Legacy STi with H6t makes more sense, although maybe not the full 400 hp of the B11. Even 350 would be really sweet.
Mike Wevrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 03:24 PM   #72
Johnny5
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 27200
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: PA
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT Ltd
Atlantic Blue

Default

Already stated my predictions -> http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=698093

I still think the WRX will maintain the 2.0 liter engine making about 235hp.
Johnny5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 04:23 PM   #73
Jon [in CT]
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 2992
Join Date: Nov 2000
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Connecticut, USA
Vehicle:
02 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaastLegacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyLR
SIA is a vehicle assembly plant but does not manufacture engines. All of the engines, 3.0, 2.5 and 2.0 come from Japan.
And Imprezas are built exclusively in Japan though USDM Bajas, Tribecas, Outbacks, some Legacies and Foresters are built in the states. Even if the engines were built in the states, they'd still have to send them across the ocean to be assembled with the Imprezas and then sent back over here which makes no sense at all.
Unbelievable how some people just make stuff up.

Subaru engines have been built in Indiana since Jan 21, 2002, according to the SIA press release at http://www.subaru-sia.com/news/release/20020605.pdf.

The Forester has never been built in Indiana but all Legacys sold in North America are built there.
Jon [in CT] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 04:24 PM   #74
SUBIEWRX03
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41687
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: PHX, AZ
Vehicle:
2003 MBP Impreza WRX
18g8cm WBR Fmic 815cc

Default

I think the 2.5 would be a great idea, as long as the price dont sky rocket. In fact it shouldnt go up. The only thing that i would recommend to Subaru which I doubt they have not covered is that of the transmission. Not that the current trans is a poor design but many bad drivers have gaven it a bad name. They should leave it a 5 speed but just strengthen the gear box. And leave the STI with the 6sp, therefore that being one of the many upgrades from the wrx to the Sti. SUBARU continues to impress me. Thats probably the reason I drive a Subaru.
SUBIEWRX03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 06:07 PM   #75
GuyLR
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21811
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:
2003 WRX Wag/01 OBS
WRB and SM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT]
Unbelievable how some people just make stuff up.

Subaru engines have been built in Indiana since Jan 21, 2002, according to the SIA press release at http://www.subaru-sia.com/news/release/20020605.pdf.

The Forester has never been built in Indiana but all Legacys sold in North America are built there.
Thanks for the correction Jon. I actually did go to the SIA website and found no mention of an engine assembly area. Usually plants are pretty proud of something like that and stick it right out front like Honda.
GuyLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SoCal: 04 wrx impreza wagon with 78k trades ok STI upgrade masters324 Private Vehicle 'For Sale' Classifieds 40 06-08-2010 12:58 AM
Toys/Models of the 2006 Impreza/WRX/STI/WRC car???? Jag32 General Community 10 07-03-2006 09:46 AM
The 2005 STi thread (merged thread) Cardwizz News & Rumors 677 05-22-2004 04:27 AM
The "Yes We Know About The Saab/Impreza- Since January" thread (merged thread) NYCshopper News & Rumors 221 06-23-2003 12:05 PM
Attn: Jamz (the merged thread) subarurabbit New England Impreza Club Forum -- NESIC 42 04-12-2002 08:42 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.