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Old 04-03-2005, 08:39 PM   #26
Element Tuning
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Yeah, don't under estimate how difficult it is to get a car running with a stand alone when youd don't have a base map. I managed to get this done in about 5 minutes but I had another customer with stock injectors that also struggled the same as you. I may have a copy of his fuel map somewhere which I know will start the car but it's was pretty bad elsewhere.

Honestly with all that time you spent trying to make a stock injector map I think you may have been better off just installing your 550cc injectors and starting with the 550 base map There just isn't a whole lot of demand for a stand alone map running stock WRX injectors so this map so it was never made.

Send me an email to remind me about that map.

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Old 04-03-2005, 10:25 PM   #27
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Ignore the crank enrichment for now. At zero RPM, set timing at the 1.3psi, 10mmhg, 85mmhg, and 160mmhg to zero. Same thing for 400rpm

Set fuel at 5ms for all those same cells. Save the map, downdownload it to the car, shut the down off and walk away for 30 seconds. Turn the ignition on, let it prime for 5 seconds, and crank for 5 seconds. If it doesn't catch, kick it up to 6ms of fuel in those ranges. Keep adding 1ms of fuel in those ranges, until you get to 10ms... if it doesn't start by then, it ain't gonna ever start and you have either a bad harness (which I'm REALLY starting to suspect btw) or a corrupted map.

I don't know what else to tell you man....
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Old 04-03-2005, 10:35 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
Ignore the crank enrichment for now. At zero RPM, set timing at the 1.3psi, 10mmhg, 85mmhg, and 160mmhg to zero. Same thing for 400rpm

Set fuel at 5ms for all those same cells. Save the map, downdownload it to the car, shut the down off and walk away for 30 seconds. Turn the ignition on, let it prime for 5 seconds, and crank for 5 seconds. If it doesn't catch, kick it up to 6ms of fuel in those ranges. Keep adding 1ms of fuel in those ranges, until you get to 10ms... if it doesn't start by then, it ain't gonna ever start and you have either a bad harness (which I'm REALLY starting to suspect btw) or a corrupted map.
I spent several hours Saturday doing that -- fuel map changes only, and only for 0RPM and 400RPM around 1.3psi, 10mmHg, next one to the left, next one to the left (which may very well be 85 and 160 as you mention above).

I will try again though. The battery is charged up again as of a half hour ago...

It's nice to know I was on the right track. I will do it exactly the way you state though (5 for all, then up 1, etc) as a last ditch effort. If the thing doesn't cough in those tests, something has GOT to be wrong with the Hydra or harness, which will be a great condolence to me because I am at the point with this where I feel like I am starting to lose my sanity One can only crank a car so many times in 3 days with sweeping changes up and down a range and not hear a peep from the engine before starting to lose it.

I too have the suspicion that I have been cranking my car for 3 days with a bad harness, but I am stubborn and persistent.
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Old 04-03-2005, 10:50 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
Yeah, don't under estimate how difficult it is to get a car running with a stand alone when youd don't have a base map.
Interestingly enough, I waved my hands around a lot this afternoon with various guesses for numbers and came up with 5.something ms for 400RPM, 12:1 AFR, 1997cc, 440cc/min injectors, 60% VE.

I knew my EFI-101 class book would come in handy someday

Phil, do you agree that starting at 5ms on up to 10ms (which is over twice the time in your 550cc map for this load/RPM site) in 1ms increments will prove this is or isn't a problem with the harness/Hydra?
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Old 04-03-2005, 11:27 PM   #30
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For each of 5-10ms, I did the following just now and got no different results:

Set 160mmHg through 1.3psi and 0RPM through 800RPM to the current value.
Saved the map as a new map name (5ms.s20, etc).
Exited "Maps"
Downloaded to ECU
Ignition off for 30 seconds
Ignition on, fuel pump primes and stops
Upload from ECU
Check values in fuel map, always was as expected
Crank car
100% TPS, crank car again to flush fuel out of cyls supposedly
Crank car
Start over again with new values
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Old 04-03-2005, 11:43 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
Honestly with all that time you spent trying to make a stock injector map I think you may have been better off just installing your 550cc injectors and starting with the 550 base map
And when I finished installing them, the car still didn't start for some reason and I put my stock ECU back in...

"Just stay in closed loop and clear the codes as they pop up..."

One hole in the foot at a time, Phil
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Old 04-04-2005, 12:50 AM   #32
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Hydra Boost Control in a Nutshell

Three main players:
1) Boost Target (Select-->Control2-->Boost target)
2) Boost Control Settings (Select-->Settings-->Boost Control Tab)
3) PWM Map 4 (Select-->2D PWM-->PWM Map 4)

The discussion below pertains to a boost control plumbing like the stock (restrictor, T-fitting, solenoid normally closed) or in an 'interruptor' mode (restrictor or not, solenoid IS the T-fitting, 3 way solenoid normally open).

Boost Target
These values at each RPM have the least to do with actual control of any of the boost control parameters. I would go so far to say that the main purpose of the value in each column is to set an "boost cut" value which is 3 psi above the set value. From brief experimentation it seems that the target value may have a very minor effect on the actual boost level, but that would in the +/- 1 psi range.

Boost Control Tab Settings
There are four main values here: RPM onset, Proportional, Integral, and Derivative. Phil's Tuning Guide goes through these values but I'd like to add some additional insight based on altering these values.

The RPM onset value is the RPM at which the boost control system starts to operate. The only thing to consider here is that you begin trying to control boost before boost is present. A lower value in the RPM box will give you a bit of a running start if you are trying to raise boost with a small solenoid. In other words, opening the solenoid at 1500 RPM may permit higher boost than opening it at 2500 RPM.

PID controllers are not really applicable to things like a solenoid that only has two states--on or off. PID control is easier to understand with something like an oven where you can vary the "proportion" of the heat by turning up the gas incrementally.

A boost control solenoid is not an oven. You have two states, on or off. In terms of proportion you can only be on. The same is true for adjustments at the D, derivative level, you are either adjusting on or off, no in between. The integral, I value, is the only one that matters much in boost control You can look at it as bias toward being on or off. If the value is over 1/2 of 255 (127.5) the bias is toward "on" or an open solenoid valve.

Phil has the PID values set at 175, 165 , and 45. You can change these values all you want, but the integral value is the only one that will have much of an effect. Raising the integral will tend to raise boost (somewhat). We are talking at most a couple of psi here, no more. These values, like the boost target value, are really fine tuning boost.

Generically, if you need to "activate" something to raise the boost:
P must be >= 127.5
I can be varied somewhat to raise boost, values between 125 and 200 seem to work best (always less than P)
D only effects how "active" the boost control system is, that is how often it "checks" the boost. Values of 25-50 all work fine, anything more does nothing.

So what is really controlling boost? PWM Map 4

PWM Map 4
PWM stands for pulse width modulation. The basic idea here is that the Hydra is sending a current to open (or close) the boost control solenoid. The faster the pulse width the more the percentage of time the valve is open. Its the same as the fuel injectors.

I experimented with all different shapes of curves in Map 4: linear increasing, linear decreasing, asymptotically approaching a value, parabolic, hyperbolic..... Here is the long and short of it. You want to start in the 5-15 value range on the far left (0%) and you want to end at 100 on the far right (100%). In between, you want to keep values low until you get close to the 100% column, at which point the values rapidly climb to 100. This gives you the fastest boost rise, and holds boost.

If you log data with the Hydra you'll see that the majority of the time under WOT the Hydra spends it's time in the 80-85% range of the PWM map. At low RPM it's at 100% and the solenoid valve is "open/active" all the time. As you get close to YOUR boost target (not the one you set in the Hydra) the solenoid backs off on it's duty. As the boost peak is reached the solenoid duty will drop into the 70s or 60s and quickly bounce back up into the 80s.

If you are like me and have a dinky turbo, my boost tapers from 18 psi to 12.5 psi. I can make the turbo hold a bit more boost by raising the values in the 80-90% columns. Thus, instead of a pure exponential curve, I have an exponential curve with a bump in it.

Here are my values across the board:
16 16.8 18 19.2 21.2 23.2 24.8 26.4 28.8 31.6 35.2 39.2 56.4 66 72.8 100

For the VF39 and GM solenoid that gives you a peak boost of 18 psi tapering to around 13.5. Use a different turbo, a different solenoid, and your curve will be different to achieve the same effect.

The two values that will most effect the "boost peak" are in the 73% and 80% columns. Raising these values will have a linear effect on the boost peak if the shape of your curve is like mine. Determining which of the columns will raise or lower the peak is just a matter of logging the data to see where the "boost valve %" is just prior at at the boost peak. Lowering the values at the logged percentage will lower the boost peak.

The one thing I feel pretty sure will always remain no matter what components are used, is the general shape of the curve--like an aircraft take off.

Summary So the summary is: PWM Map 4 is you main boost control point, the other systems/control points are pretty much fine tuning. The "Boost Target" is really there to set a "Boost Cut" which occurs 3 psi above the Target value.

If you are using something like a stepper motor to control boost, the PID values will become more important. Remember the Hydra was not built for the Subaru, but as a generic control system. For our cars, and the majority of boost control systems that Subaru users use, PWM Map 4 is the money for controlling boost and I believe the above advice will hold true for those single solenoid based systems.
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Old 04-04-2005, 08:25 AM   #33
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Thumbs up

Thanks man! I have added this to the first post with attribution.
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Old 04-04-2005, 08:48 AM   #34
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Hey jblaine, first thanks for starting up this thread. Am I right your car has never started witht he Hydra? If so, I know you mention recharging your battery, but I think you might just need a more powerful battery. I was using the stock battery with mine, and it didn't take much for the battery to lose charge enough that it couldn't start the car (I was running my notebook through the cigarette lighter). I got a cheap but much higher output battery from Costco and it works fine. As you probably know, the sequential firing start of the Hydra needs a more powerful battery to get the car started than the stock ECU.
Just thought it would be a lot quicker for you to try a more powerful battery than all the more complicated stuff you're getting into.
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Old 04-04-2005, 02:46 PM   #35
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Next I like to do a post that is something like: Getting the Most Out of Nemesis 2.14 v7.

There are a lot of little tuning nicities in the Nemesis software that can aid in tuning. Some are present in all of the 2.14 versions and some only work in the v7. DarthChicken could help out on a post like this alot. Phil knows the most, but putting down at lease what has already been worked out my common users would be a huge boon to tuning for the general community.
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Old 04-04-2005, 02:48 PM   #36
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YES. Please. I don't understand how this stuff is not documented clearly in release notes, etc.
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Old 04-04-2005, 02:53 PM   #37
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Quote:
A boost control solenoid is not an oven.
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Old 04-04-2005, 11:08 PM   #38
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Well. Nothing's changed here. Tonight I jacked the car back up, recalibrated the WB02 sensor, took the stock out, plugged the WB02 in, unplugged the stock ECU, plugged the Hydra in ... and tried 5.5ms, 6.5ms, 7.5ms, 8.5ms, 9.5ms.

Nothing.

Phil, I want to be a patient customer and wait for your 440cc "starts but runs like crap" map, but I just don't see that I can do anything further here unless you have a rabbit in your hat to pull out. If I heard even the FIRST cough or sputter by now, I would be honing in on the tuning aspect of it, but everything from 5 to 10ms in .5ms increments has been tried now and I am at the end of my pointless cranking song and dance.

I don't even care about starting and idling for 1 second at this point. To not hear a single noise out of all of that is telling to me, but perhaps I am just naive.

Another day down the tubes.
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Old 04-05-2005, 02:20 AM   #39
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Hmmmm...... how can I help you jb. I've got one idea, PM me with your email address and I'll send you some screen shots that might help out. I'm not promising anything, but as long as your putting days down the tube-- it can't hurt.
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Old 04-05-2005, 08:57 AM   #40
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jeff, are you sure you're getting spark?
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:07 AM   #41
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jblaine -> I am not sure if this could have any bearing on your problems, but it may be one of the easier things to check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by engineerx
it was droping down to 10.4V during cranking, then barely 12+V
The Hydra Standalone EMS acts up when it sees those low voltages and it will not start the car below ~10.8V , the stock ECU works fine - The Hydra has 3 processors so it power hungry...
Now if I can just figure out what happened to my throttle I will be back to the joys of the Hydra. It seems that everything was running great on the initial map I set up from Phil's original map with only the WBO2 calibrated. It seems after about 30 minutes of driving I completely lost my all throttle response and my idle shot up to a steady 2250rpm's. The TPS gauge on the Hydra software even reads zero no matter how much I push the accelerator down. I tried downloading the map to the ECU again and several other little things with no luck. I let my car sit for about an hour and then when I started it I pumped the pedal three times and had response before it went away again. Now I am back on the stock ECU waiting for the next reply from Phil.

offset
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:10 AM   #42
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bboy: PM sent

Ken: Nope. And I'm not shooting the messenger when I say this... and maybe I expect too much... but the way I see it at this point, a new harness should be tried before I go ripping my car apart or buying a new battery. I tediously 2amp-slow-charge the battery to full charge every time the Hydra reports less than 11 volts in all of this trying. If this thing can't start a car with 11+ volts, I don't want it, frankly.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:20 PM   #43
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Hydra EMS USA has stated firmly that the car should have started (and run like crap) well past now with any of the fuel map settings above -- as one would expect. I have an appointment, so to speak, to call them from the car this afternoon to look over the wiring harness.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:48 PM   #44
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It's easy to pull one spark plug and have someone ground it to something (or if you're evil themself) while you crank the car.

When you start it with the stock ECU does the car bog and stutter for awhile? That would be an indication of it being flooded. If not it may not be activating the injectors.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwx
It's easy to pull one spark plug and have someone ground it to something (or if you're evil themself) while you crank the car.
That's the next step after the harness checks out or doesn't. None of my friends live near me, so it will be a matter of asking a stranger/neighbor to crank my car or bothering one of them to make the trip.

Quote:
When you start it with the stock ECU does the car bog and stutter for awhile? That would be an indication of it being flooded. If not it may not be activating the injectors.
Yes, it flops along for 4-5 seconds at start with stock ECU then runs pretty rich (seen at tailpipe) for a good 20 seconds and settles down. I can smell the fuel during Hydra cranking.
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Old 04-05-2005, 04:34 PM   #46
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Can't I test the spark with just the coil pack off somehow?

FWIW, the car does not start with the 420cc map from Phil.
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Old 04-05-2005, 07:15 PM   #47
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Well, are you ready for this?

The car starts. It idles. It drives.

The problem? After almost 2 hours on the phone with Hydra EMS USA, it was found that almost every single trigger and output was completely wrong for a Subaru (these are locked by the tuner, and Hydra EMS USA unlocked everything for me with a password to check on this).

Once fixed, the car started right up and idled.

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Old 04-05-2005, 07:22 PM   #48
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I want to make a point to thank Hydra EMS for their extensive step-by-step problem solving with me today. They initiated the contact with me yesterday due to a thread I started in their forums, and followed up with me today as planned until everything was straightened out.

Now it's time to overdose on tylenol for this splitting headache, eat something before I fall over, and go deal with my tax appointment! Sweet!
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Old 04-05-2005, 07:54 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
Well, are you ready for this?

The car starts. It idles. It drives.

The problem? After almost 2 hours on the phone with Hydra EMS USA, it was found that almost every single trigger and output was completely wrong for a Subaru (these are locked by the tuner, and Hydra EMS USA unlocked everything for me with a password to check on this).

Once fixed, the car started right up and idled.

Well I can't say that I'm glad is was so simple and I never thought of it. Just for the record the triggers are set by Hydra EMS and not overwriten by Element Tuning. I do not have access to overwrite the triggers but it looks like I need to program the triggers just to make sure they are correct from now on.

Wasn't your tachometer boucing around when you trying to start the car?

I'm glad you're running!

Phil
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:02 PM   #50
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It was bouncing here and there (twitchy) from 0 to 150RPM.
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