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Old 04-14-2005, 03:45 PM   #101
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I edited ALL my posts in the hope of Phil's return.

That knock curve is a good one. It's based on 1) stock knock sensor activity 2) phil's listening in with his Tuner headset. I would not change the shape of the curve unless you have good reason.

What you can do is select all the cells buy holding down the Ctrl key and arrowing across. Once selected, you can raise or lower the whole curve up and down the Y-axis. In this way you change the "ceiling" of the knock limit across the entire RPM range.

Here is a caveat to the knock limit map. Generally the knock limit is set while on a dyno or at least at WOT on the road. It's a good practice, since these are the loads where knock is most likely to occur. However, imagine partial throttle conditions or times of transition like during shifting. Detonation knows no boundaries, det can occur at less than WOT, during transitions, etc. The Hydra has some other fuel maps like the "dynamic" enleanment and enrichment maps that help to ameliorate knock during transitionary states (among other functions). That said you can still detonate at 3500 RPM in sixth gear and 10% TPS (that's what the knock correction is there to catch, so you don't have to tune every single condition).

Keep it up Jeff, your doing great!!!
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Old 04-14-2005, 03:58 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
I edited ALL my posts in the hope of Phil's return.
Let me say that I appreciate that and that I also hope Phil returns to this thread now. It is rare for some folks to know where the edit button is it seems.

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Old 04-14-2005, 10:06 PM   #103
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I guess my concern at this point with the knock threshold shown in the graph I posted is that I am running so much less timing under boost than my stock ECU settled down into with its adaptive timing.

With the "new" (to me) and proper KT map, my vacuum knock problem (all over) is gone.

Now it's just a matter of me scratching my head at having to run 10 and 11 degrees of timing advance through a large splotch of my map at 9+psi... to not register knock events. AFRs are 11:1.

My DeltaDash logs showed 16psi tapering to 14psi and only a single small area going as low as 14. The rest being a lot of 15, 18, 19, 20. AFRs were 11.5:1.

At any rate... yes, det cans of some sort are a start. I already have a simple mechanics stethoscope. I don't see why I can't just lengthen it so I can wear it in one ear while in the cabin driving.

I'll have to see if I can get some screen captures of the '+' trails immediately after a pull or two and I'll show you how crappy my timing is from 3200-5500 past 9psi.
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:35 PM   #104
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jeff.. remember that the hydra may be more sensitive than your oem ecu was. in fact, i'd put money down that it IS more sensitive. as a result you're seeing some noise that would have gone completely undetected by your oem ecu.

i say this because i run with a utec that has all knock thresholds set 10 units higher than "normal". i used to think it was engine noise, not knock, that was getting picked up... until it went away with a degree or two less advance. the oem ecu never saw it at all. it was barely perceptible with electronic detcans.

ken
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Old 04-15-2005, 10:11 AM   #105
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That's definitely the case -- the provided Hydra Knock Threshold map is configured significantly more sensitive than the OEM ECU's logic, at least in the areas I have hit so far.

I guess I am just a little confused about the shape of it and curious to hear how it was configured/determined. It does, after all, grow drasticly more sensitive as RPMs increase.

I'm sure the only way I am going to determine an appropriate shape/level for it is with det cans and a dyno.

I guess I was just under the misconception that I would have a reasonable starting point for my Spark map to tweak in a few areas where a few small knock events were being registered, and that's far from where I am right now. I feel like I'm making my own base timing map from scratch at this point to simply not knock. That seems "off" to me.
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Old 04-16-2005, 03:28 PM   #106
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Well, I loaded up with 4/5ths 100 octane and had 1/5th of 93.

Here are various Knock Threshold "trail" results from pulls up to 14psi or so (some were to redline, some were not). This is with stupid-low timing in areas that have been causing me trouble, gradually decreased over time down to where I have them now (10 degrees as mentioned before).





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Old 04-16-2005, 03:33 PM   #107
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And 10.8:1 AFRs from 4000-4800...
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Old 04-16-2005, 06:10 PM   #108
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it DOES seem to follow the shape.

listening through the tuner pro headphones i can tell you that i hear a sharp increase in engine noise at around 4k. is that where your x axis scale points?
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Old 04-16-2005, 07:34 PM   #109
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Your whole knock curve looks too low in the red rectangle. You curve is th approximate shape as mine, but mine sits higher in the box by about 10-15%

I'd lower your timing advance to 15 or less until you get the fueling right, then advance timing to the verge of knock. Phil's timing curve is very complicated, it makes the fueling look simple.

When I "track" knock and really run through gears to hit all the RPM range and loads I can. my knock readings profile follows Phil's knock threshold curve perfectly.
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Old 04-16-2005, 08:32 PM   #110
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The fueling is right, now, except for extremely small additional corrections. I am hitting all target AFRs and have pulled/smoothed at least 8 times now, as well as logging to make sure everything is kosher.

The timing being used in those plots above was extreeemely conservative.

To make sure they weren't misfires, I loaded a timing map for a car Phil did, which is conservative, but far more advanced than "mine" is. The plotted trail from that is no different really.

I'm just going to keep raising the Knock Threshold without touching the timing further while I have this 100 octane tankfull. It (the timing map) is already conservative, and Phil said it should be fine.

FWIW, that Knock Threshold map was taken from the same map I got the timing from.

If yours is much higher, and mine needs to be much higher, why can't I seem to get my hands on a proper set of maps for a Subaru? This is getting ridiculous. I knew I would have to do the fuel map myself, and I have. All of the other major maps should be available and require minimal tweaking to just get a base non-optimized setup going.

Every step I take, I find out I have a bogus map or config setting -- not just a "bit off"
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Old 04-16-2005, 08:51 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
it DOES seem to follow the shape.

listening through the tuner pro headphones i can tell you that i hear a sharp increase in engine noise at around 4k. is that where your x axis scale points?
Yes, X axis there is RPM
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Old 04-16-2005, 11:16 PM   #112
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So you want to run Decel Fuel Cut

If your as old as I am, you remember the rumble of deceleration under high vacuum of the old muscle cars. It sounded like the car was about to blow up, with the occasional back fire thrown in for excitement. You can relive those days by checking the Decel Fuel Cut box in Select-->Settings-->Setup-->Enable Decel Fuel Cut

Other than reminiscence, why do this? One it saves some fuel, and two, it gives a very different feel to the car--very responsive throttle.

OK, backfires can be fun, but they don't make you too popular with your neighbors, and paint a target on your car for the smokies. If you want to run the Decel Fuel Cut you will most likely need to tune for it to eliminate back-firing. Back-firing occurs when residual fuel is ignited in the exhaust. I'm not sure that backfires hurt much of anything (maybe the O2 sensor via vibration), but they can be startling.

1) first stop is the "Dynamic enleanment value" in the Select-->Settings-->Injection.

You want this value as high as possible for the most "enleanment" when the throttle shuts. Higher numbers, leads to less fuel, more enleanment. Read that again, it's backwards to other maps. I increased this value until the car started to buck at low RPM, no or low load, then back off one unit. Why the car bucks with too much enleanment is another story (think of: transmission/flywheel is turning the engine instead of the engine turning the transmission/flywheel). Find the value when the bucking stops. Mine is set to 122 (see below).

I experienced less back fire, but it still backfired especially on low speed partial throttle shifts.

2) next stop, "Dynamic Enrichment value" in Select-->Settings-->Injection.

If you find that while changing gears, right as you get on the gas pedal the car backfires, this is the place to tune to help eliminate that problem. The dynamic enrichment is there to add fuel during acceleration and rapid throttle openings. Without it, you can run lean as the air rushes in quicker than the fuel is delivered. Sometimes dEnrich adds too much fuel, and upon the initial throttle opening, the car will back fire. Lower this value to reduce the fuel addition during "enrichment". You don't want to go to low, the "dEnrichment" is very useful. I lowered mine from 85 down to 80. "On gas" backfiring was elliminated.

3) now for the die-hard backfiring. You have gotten it down to the occasional back fire or intermittent backfire, but no more can be done with the "dynamic" settings. Now its time to tune the fuel map itself.

Here is a great use for "autotune". Look at your AFR Target Table and make sure it looks reasonable particularly in the "vacuum" areas. It should be 14.7 most everywhere, creeping into the 13's at high RPM near 1 psi of boost. In Select-->Settings-->Closed Loop, check "closed loop" uncheck "DRQ long term learning" punch the "Wide Band Target Table". Also, set the Closed Loop max RPM to 7000. Autotune is explained in Phil's Element Tuning Guide 2, you must up load after autotuning, save, and download to make changes permanent.

Change the "Closed Loop Limit" to 0 mm Hg from 0-8000 RPM. This is the region we are tuning, you can always return these values when we are done.

OK back to Decel Fuel Cut tuning, run autotune and stay out to boost with your foot. Drive around in 2nd or 3rd gear, or whatever it takes, and 'hit' or 'drive through' as many of the RPM and Load ranges as you possibly can, as many times as you can--little or no boost. Massage the map. You'll feel it when the ECU pulls fuel. While your here, push the clutch in and rev the engine, hold it at 4000, 5000, 6000, rev slolwly, we are giving Autotune time to work on each load/RPM point. All you are doing here is pulling fuel out in the 'low load' parts of the fuel map, down to ~14.7 AFR.

Don't turn the ignition off!! You may be shocked how much fuel you pulled. You'll see it in the 3D graph.

Upload your autotuned map, smooth the map if you like, turn off autotune, reset the closed-loop max RPM to 4500 (or whatever), save the file and name it, and then download to the ECU.

You may find that the car now bucks (slightly) after removing fuel from the Main Fuel map with Autotune, I did. I upped my "dEleanment" to 123. Done.

This tuning session completely eliminated backfiring for me with Decel Fuel Cut. If you don't like the way the car drives now, you can always dis-Enable Decel Fuel Cut. It took longer to write this message than it did to tune, go figure. : Th th th th th that's all folks...still having trouble call Phil.
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Old 04-16-2005, 11:17 PM   #113
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Jeff, I'm emailing you my knock limit pic.
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Old 04-16-2005, 11:38 PM   #114
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BBoy, Great info I'll give it a try tomorrow.

Question about smoothing. On my map after autotone, I just filled in the areas around major peaks and valleys figuring it was erring on the side of rich.

I'm still trying to get a good visual and mental understanding of what a really smoothed map would look like. WHat are you guys shooting for as far as how the 3d map looks like when you are smoothing?

Are you going along the load or rpm lines, or kind of blending both. I blended both.

I get quite a bit of popping and sputtering off throttle just idling down my hill in 2nd and 1st gear on the way home (kinda like what you mention about decel cut). Do you guys think that's normal or do you think I could pull fuel out of the higher vacuum areas?

Just wondering cause I was also having the knock supposedly in the vacuum sites at low RPM (by viewing the timing map and seeing the red.).
However, a power pull in 3rd and 4th I've managed to get knock free by fuel and timing manipulation.


That brings another question to mind. Timing map.. Is there a safe way to "Smooth" this in or is it just a fact that your timing map is just gonna look chaotic??

Thanks,

Antimullet
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Old 04-17-2005, 01:02 AM   #115
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jblaine,

email me your map and if you are using that customer's map as your base starting point there is a good chance the "knock amplifier" is enabled. If it is, turn it off.
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Old 04-17-2005, 09:09 AM   #116
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Hey bboy, thanks for the great info. I won't be using it just yet (don't worry Phil), but I might do once I get the hang of the more basic stuff. Good to see Phil back on the thread too.
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Old 04-17-2005, 09:31 AM   #117
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Well, due to the stupid post length limit, I cannot add bboy's new great post to the top post in this thread. I will add a pointer to it instead, but I am growing weary of forum limitations and am considering taking all of this information to a new medium where it can be rendered better and without limitations. I'll be sure to say if I do anything.

Phil: Knock amplifier is off already. I will email you my map in a few minutes. Thanks.
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Old 04-17-2005, 10:30 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
So you want to run Decel Fuel Cut

...

3) now for the die-hard backfiring. You have gotten it down to the occasional back fire or intermittent backfire, but no more can be done with the "dynamic" settings. Now its time to tune the fuel map itself.

Here is a great use for "autotune". Look at your AFR Target Table and make sure it looks reasonable particularly in the "vacuum" areas. It should be 14.7 most everywhere, creeping into the 13's at high RPM near 1 psi of boost. In Select-->Settings-->Closed Loop, check "closed loop" uncheck "DRQ long term learning" punch the "Wide Band Target Table". Also, set the Closed Loop max RPM to 7000. Autotune is explained in Phil's Element Tuning Guide 2, you must up load after autotuning, save, and download to make changes permanent.

Change the "Closed Loop Limit" to 0 mm Hg from 0-8000 RPM. This is the region we are tuning, you can always return these values when we are done.

OK back to Decel Fuel Cut tuning, run autotune and stay out to boost with your foot. Drive around in 2nd or 3rd gear, or whatever it takes, and 'hit' or 'drive through' as many of the RPM and Load ranges as you possibly can, as many times as you can--little or no boost. Massage the map. You'll feel it when the ECU pulls fuel. While your here, push the clutch in and rev the engine, hold it at 4000, 5000, 6000, rev slolwly, we are giving Autotune time to work on each load/RPM point. All you are doing here is pulling fuel out in the 'low load' parts of the fuel map, down to ~14.7 AFR.
Note to readers -- if you've spent a lot of time hand-editing your fuel values at idle to be something other than 14.7:1, don't forget that this will obviously clobber that work, so do it by hand + logging instead.
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Old 04-17-2005, 10:33 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Your whole knock curve looks too low in the red rectangle. You curve is th approximate shape as mine, but mine sits higher in the box by about 10-15%
Per email exchange with you, for reader info, this is not the case. The main peak of your curve is about 1-3% higher than mine.

Optical illusion
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Old 04-17-2005, 04:36 PM   #120
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^^^^^^ More like wishful thinking . The curve and "height" looks about right.
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Old 04-18-2005, 08:47 PM   #121
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Alright, well, I spoke with Phil today (he called me after I sent him my map and examined it).

After fixing a setting that was incorrect, and learning from Phil to make sure not to pay attention to any trail marks in the Knock Threshold map that result from a snap-lift of throttle, it seems I have something reasonable for a curve to work with now. It's a little taller than probably typical, but I feel it's a pretty accurate representation of my car's noise level (Group-N mounts all around, FWTW).

It's a good thing, too, as my $45 100 octane fill up is almost gone

Phil, I realize the CEL will blink at a set interval under knocking conditions, but could you elaborate on the threshold that will cause that? It would seem that snap-throttle-lift false knock events do not throw the CEL, so there has to be some sort of logic to it.
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:06 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
Note to readers -- if you've spent a lot of time hand-editing your fuel values at idle to be something other than 14.7:1, don't forget that this will obviously clobber that work, so do it by hand + logging instead.
Good point, and this is the same reason I say to stay out of the boost area while autotuning the Decel Fuel Cut. Phil and I have invested a great deal of time into my WOT and other boost site maps. I did not want to jeopardize those parts of the map.

I have a method of combining maps (more like cutting and pasting large map chunks) but it's not ready for prime time, and I think we'll see a better method solution soon for the same purpose.

JB I'm sending a pic and a map.
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:05 AM   #123
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Something I have noticed and need a sanity check on -- when logging, then pulling over to examine/massage the data, I am noticing that the bold black "visited" cells back in the fuel and spark maps are very minimal and not representative of the complete range I went through (by far).

Do others see this as well?
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Old 04-20-2005, 10:41 AM   #124
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I've confirmed this ^^^. It happens even if viewing the Knock Threshold map (doesn't require logging or some other overlaying screen/window to deactivate the visited-cell-highlighting).

Seems one has to be viewing the fuel (or spark?) map to get the snail trail.
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Old 04-22-2005, 12:41 PM   #125
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My settings to get a "decent" boost curve on a Vishnu Stage 1 setup. It oscillates a tiny bit, but does not spike (anything for integral higher than 100 was spiking badly for me). This is provided as a STARTING POINT for those who may have a similar setup.

- Bleed-hole fitting as provided by Vishnu
- TBE (1 cat in mine)
- Stock turbo
- Samco hoses
- JDM v7 STI TMIC

BOOST TARGET

Left to right (top to bottom below)
10.05
11.1
12.9
15.15
16.2
16.2
16.2
16.2
15.3
13.95
13.05
11.55
10.65
9.9
0
8.1
7.35

PWM MAP 4

Left to right (top to bottom below)
0
2.4
5.6
10.8
16.4
22.4
28.4
35.6
47.6
65.2
76
80.8
81.2
82.8
84.4
91.2

SELECT -> SETTINGS -> BOOST CONTROL TAB

1700 Start
160 P
80 I
45 D

NOTES

Boost valve % at WOT stays in the 57-60% area.
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