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Old 04-26-2005, 05:10 PM   #126
jblaine
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Added 'Various Notes' section to top post with some info.
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Old 04-27-2005, 10:02 AM   #127
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"It has not been confirmed officially yet, but you must be viewing either the fuel or spark maps while driving for Autotune to work (90% sure)."

The Autotune works regardless of the map being viewed. The only requirement for Autotune to work is that your laptop is plugged in and the Nemesis software is running.

Map "tracking" requires you to be viewing that particular map.

Thanks,
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Last edited by Element Tuning; 04-27-2005 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 04-27-2005, 11:51 AM   #128
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Hm. Okay. I've deleted that note.
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Old 05-28-2005, 11:54 PM   #129
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Here's what Autotune has determined my 420cc fuel map to be, for what it's worth.

Clearly the 18+psi area needs work by hand in case of an overboost situation. I'll get to it.

Any comments?

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Old 06-01-2005, 03:14 PM   #130
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Default 2.14v11 and manual

2.14v11 software and the May05 version of the "manual" can be found at the following link. I have not tried v11...

http://www.hydraems.com/america/Nemesis%20Software.htm

Code:
    2.14V11

        * Fixed bug where tracking cell disappears that was in 2D maps in Version7.
        * Changed KPA to Absolute values.
        * Added Comments option to keep track of modifications of map.
        * Added option of text dump instead of excel dump for data logging.
        * Added Miata Air temp sensor option.
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Old 06-01-2005, 03:37 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Hydra Boost Control in a Nutshell

... text deleted ...

If you log data with the Hydra you'll see that the majority of the time under WOT the Hydra spends it's time in the 80-85% range of the PWM map.
53-70% for me the majority of the time at WOT

I still don't fully "get" the PWM4 map. Luckily, I have a sane/safe boost setup working anyway.
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Old 07-07-2005, 02:50 PM   #132
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Phil, any word on the WI setup?
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Old 07-07-2005, 03:00 PM   #133
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Has anybody noticed that auton-tune usually makes that small hump down there?
Jblaine has two humps... many has one, as I do as well.

Jblaine: Just smooth it out and test.
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Old 07-23-2005, 11:24 AM   #134
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lowturboboost: I have found that the autotune humps are bogus. Once you're confident the area to the right of the hump is accurate (higher RPM), smooth from right to left to get rid of the hump, then adjust your autotune RPM range to start higher than where the hump ended.

Autotune on the ROAD, in my opinion, is really only good enough to get a rough starting point with a poor initial base fuel map. There is simply way too much going on.

Some other asides:

1. It is worth noting (since I've never seen anybody note it outright...) that tuning the main Nemesis fuel map properly for "normal conditions" requires that you are not in a coolant or air temperature range that is activating any fueling adjustments due to the Coolant Temp Trim or Air Temp Trim maps. That is, if you are cruising around tuning a low-load low-RPM portion of your fuel map with 100C coolant temperature (for instance) and your Coolant Temp Trim map is adding 1% fuel at that temperature, you do not want to target a 14.7:1 AFR.

2. Likewise, when tuning idle AFR, it is pointless to touch anything in the map until the Post Start Enrichment period has ended (roughly 70 seconds supposedly...).

3. For the reasons above, this is another reason I do not like using Autotune past the first few days of building a rough base map on the road.

4. A workaround, of course, is to set all of your Coolant Temp Trim and Air Temp Trim values to 0 from 40C to highestC ... while you are tuning. Then put them back as you see fit when you have a nice fuel map. Be attentive though.

That all may seem brutally obvious to some of you more experienced tuners, but it was something I started realizing on my own with no previous experience tuning.

Something else I learned: With a fresh tune planned, get your car functioning well enough to drive off boost. Go load up on high octane fuel. Spend the next few days building an 80% accurate fuel map, then focus on tuning your Knock Threshold map before you even begin to touch timing. Select Knock Threshold map. In a VERY safe place with somewhere to pull off and stop at the end, get into 4th gear and run it from 2200 to redline at WOT while noting the tick mark made right when you lift off throttle (that tick is NOT knock, and will likely be high on the graph). Pull over. Adjust the Knock Threshold map so that the highest marks are under your curve and are ALMOST touching it. Select Tools -> Reset Traces and check only "RESET KNOCK TRACE". Click OK. Repeat a few more pulls, making sure to note the throttle lift marks which are not knock, and adjust your Knock Threshold curve as necessary.

Then, if not making a race gas map, wait until your tank is empty and refill on your typical octane of choice. Do some low boost test pulls, noting of course the lift-throttle tick marks, work up from there, etc etc...

Just my 2 cents. Not a professional tuner.

EDIT: Changed "smooth left to right" to "smooth right to left" in the 1st paragraph

Last edited by jblaine; 07-23-2005 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 07-23-2005, 11:44 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
lowturboboost: I have found that the autotune humps are bogus. Once you're confident the area to the right of the hump is accurate (higher RPM), smooth from left to right to get rid of the hump, then adjust your autotune RPM range to start higher than where the hump ended.

1. It is worth noting (since I've never seen anybody note it outright...) that tuning the main Nemesis fuel map properly for "normal conditions" requires that you are not in a coolant or air temperature range that is activating any fueling adjustments due to the Coolant Temp Trim or Air Temp Trim maps. That is, if you are cruising around tuning a low-load low-RPM portion of your fuel map with 100C coolant temperature (for instance) and your Coolant Temp Trim map is adding 1% fuel at that temperature, you do not want to target a 14.7:1 AFR.

2. Likewise, when tuning idle AFR, it is pointless to touch anything in the map until the Post Start Enrichment period has ended (roughly 70 seconds supposedly...).

3. For the reasons above, this is another reason I do not like using Autotune past the first few days of building a rough base map on the road.

4. A workaround, of course, is to set all of your Coolant Temp Trim and Air Temp Trim values to 0 from 40C to highestC ... while you are tuning. Then put them back as you see fit when you have a nice fuel map. Be attentive though.

That all may seem brutally obvious to some of you more experienced tuners, but it was something I started realizing on my own with no previous experience tuning.
The way I did this, was I tuned the car with zero correction... THEN went back and tuned the correction maps. Example - tune the car at 90c coolant temp, 30c air temp. Get it perfect (ie 14.7 for example). Then go back and tune the correction maps, so when your air temp is 40c, you're still 14.7. 50C air temp... 14.7. Same thing with coolant temp, except I like to run my car richer at lower coolant temps (the car is smoother and less likely to have any issues.

Phil's base maps are good, but he can't account for elevation or humidity (dewpoint)... so whats good in one part of the country on an 80 degree day won't be PERFECT in another part of the country. Its definitly close though
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Old 07-24-2005, 01:23 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
So this is what it comes to now? We have a small company and a small-volume product, therefore we're obligated to only say positive things or everyone cries and starts "rubbing you out" or cold-sholdering you?

Fantastic.

dear lord alot of this sounds very familiar. and thats not a good thing. i got a hydra a while ago for my GM6 with a hybrid ej22t/rs engine ludespeed kit. basically without flaming phill or andrew or hydra ems at the time it seemed like from what i was getting as far as communication from phil and andrew i had a "very rare" problem. it was explained that way at least. i was given a similar description of major problems being limited to a very few number of cars (can count them on one hand, etc) but when told by andrew how many cars like mine (ie not new age wrx or sti's) he actually had running/trying to on a hydra it became clear that the percentage of problem cars was kind of scarey.

phil and andrew were great about communicating so i thank them VERY much for that, its always a help. BUT, if that communication doesn't lead to a solution due to hardware problems, software problems, traveling, limited personel, whatever, than the communication isn't worth very much in the end. and i believe that may be a reason for why threads like this and some ppl's opinions of this system have become "sour". its unfortunate and i wish it were different but it isn't.

now it seems as though hydra has come along since i got mine and had my problems but it seems as though some of the current issues are ringing some old bells for me and if nothing else i just want to say that you're not alone, and in the end it will work out whether it is with or without a hydra. needless to say i am no longer a hydra owner. it is, i hope, enjoying its new home down in puerto rico and i am selling everything that seemed to just turn out to be a bad combination in exchange for an ej205 swap with ecu.

the reflash capabilities are just too tempting to not go this route and in the end it turns out this is the better way for me. so just something to think about, there are solutions out there. it took me probably a month to get the car to start, the entire summer to get the car to idle and move on its own power (even if it wasn't pretty), and close to a year to get it where i was comfortable driving it regularly. it cost me a good chunk of money sending my unit back and forth for testing and attempted fixes.

i live in massachusetts. and unless you're near element tuning or andrew it seemed like there was no way to get accurate fixes made. i sent it back to get it put back the way it was when it was running poorly. it had been running and then as soon as i hit about 4k rpms it would fall on its face. it was violent and loud and i had no idea what the hell was going on. apparently i was losing my trigger signal, which another car in china i believe it was, was having the same problem. when i got it back from the initial attempt to fix this problem it wouldn't even start. the filters in the hydra at first would see trigger signal to start and run to 4k, then when i got it back the filters were too high and probably woulda seen trigger to 8k but couldn't see anything low enough to start.

at this point i needed to worry about getting back to school for the fall semester so i sent it back AGAIN so phil could just put it back the way it was so i could at least drive back to school in PA. i got it back and when it was all said and done the car started, ran, and pulled nicely to redline. if i recall correctly andrew had taken a guess at the filters or maybe it was the bad idle control module or something along those lines that when i got it back it was the way it should have been. something fairly simple, but easily overlooked, and ultimately something that never should have left the factory line with. i'm not sure why there are so many of these different little simple problems that are being allowed to be sent out with these units but in my opinion (and its just that) these problems should be caught and stop or ppl should cut bait and walk away.

i know i'm not a hydra owner technically anymore, and this is going to be looked on as a "sour" post, but you know what, i don't care. its what happened to me. in my eyes i'm seeing similar things happen, similar reactions, and i feel for ppl. not just on this thread but other places i hear it too. so take this information as you will, if it helps great, if not then forget it and don't worry about it. well everyone, i hope it all works out and you find a way to make it work.
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Old 07-24-2005, 11:41 AM   #137
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RSEnigma,

Your situation was fairly unique and we have hundreds of customers without issues but with any product youíre bound to have defects, bugs, or incompatibility with certain cars. To this date Iíve only given 3 refunds and they were all due to defects in the product such as bad harnesses.

Your situation was unique in that you had a hybrid RS engine using a 22T bottom end, RS heads, a custom turbo kit, and RC injectors so there was no highly tested map for your application. You declined having your car professionally tuned which I understand as money doesnít grow on trees but you were offered a full refund within weeks of your purchase but you declined this also.

My point is that defects or bugs happen but Hydra EMS and Element Tuning have always offered full refunds under these circumstances. If a refund is declined we make all reasonable attempts to correct the situation. We canít make everyone happy with our product but we do our best.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 07-24-2005, 11:47 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
Phil, any word on the WI setup?
Richard Lamb at Aquamist wants me to continue testing until we have all possible scenarios fully tested. At this point we still have water capacity issues do the high power nature of our car. We need to increase the water flow on our setup but we are currently at about 475 whp on pump fuel.

I did have a chance to test this at a track event and it worked great but I definitely need to baffle the water tank for track use.

We're also looking at options to reduce the cost of the kit so we'll be testing some other components.

If you have any specific questions ask away.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:03 PM   #139
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Definitely some good tips in posts above.

In theory you should not have to worry about the air temperature correction map while tuning as itís designed to maintain the same AFR at various intake air temps. It has been revised slightly over very early maps but itís been tested for all conceivable temperature ranges. The coolant correction maps will affect the AFR so as suggested be aware of coolant temperature when tuning.

For the most part AutoTune is a god send but Iíve always told customers some manual finish work is required but itís by far the fastest way to get your fuel map on target.

Humidity and elevation is going to have a large impact on AFR and this needs to be addressed on an individual level. A more advanced technique which will compensate largely for these conditions is to run closed loop, long term learning, and wide band target table. This way the ecu will always be compensating for various conditions and will target the AFR established in your Target AFR map. The key here is to make sure your Target AFR map matches very closely to the actual AFR of your main fuel map so only minimal corrections need to be made. On my car I run this from 300 rpm all the way to 4000 rpm as I donít want a closed loop system when the car reaches full boost and peak torque incase the WB were to fail.

On a side note if youíre going to use closed loop at idle itís best to target the AFR at 14.0 to 14.5 as the Hydra will cycle the AFR on the lean and rich side of the target but when the AFR is run leaner than 14.7 the idle can feel a bit rough.

Keep in mind my car produces about 475 whp on pump fuel and on a recent trip I recorded 350 miles to the tank running this configuration.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 07-25-2005, 12:43 PM   #140
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Added info to top post about USB-to-serial adapters and PCMCIA serial cards (in the Q and A section).
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:00 PM   #141
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Phil, I am going to resize my load grid under Settings due to the fact that I need more resolution between the default 385inHg to 310inHg columns.

I idle at ~366 and my driving style around town is a lot of very light throttle cruising around 330-340inHg. Right now, I am suffering from interpolation across 385inHg to 310inHg. Given that I want to tune that very light throttle cruising for 14.5:1, but want to target ~15.5:1 at 385inHg, I don't see any other choice.

What maps will this resizing affect? Timing, fuel... what else? Not likely worth the hassle?
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Old 07-25-2005, 04:39 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
Phil, I am going to resize my load grid under Settings due to the fact that I need more resolution between the default 385inHg to 310inHg columns.

I idle at ~366 and my driving style around town is a lot of very light throttle cruising around 330-340inHg. Right now, I am suffering from interpolation across 385inHg to 310inHg. Given that I want to tune that very light throttle cruising for 14.5:1, but want to target ~15.5:1 at 385inHg, I don't see any other choice.

What maps will this resizing affect? Timing, fuel... what else? Not likely worth the hassle?
Most of the cars will idle around the 465-535 load site so there is plenty of resolution where it's needed but since your idle vacuum is so low it may be worth doing. You can get really creative with the ďGridy SetupĒ values and may be able to increase the resolution where you need it by decreasing the resolution below 366 mm/hg without significantly impacting the higher load areas of the map.

For 99% of our customers I would say itís not worth doing if youíve tuned most of your map since it shifts the fuel, spark maps, and the AVCS maps.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 07-25-2005, 04:45 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
You can get really creative with the ďGridy SetupĒ values and may be able to increase the resolution where you need it by decreasing the resolution below 366 mm/hg without significantly impacting the higher load areas of the map.
Ah, good idea! I hadn't considered that. I'll poke around and see how awful it will be to fix up.
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Old 07-28-2005, 02:51 PM   #144
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^^^ This worked, BTW. Took 10 minutes to figure out what was going on in the GRID Y screen and what I needed to do with it exactly, but... it worked fine.

Everything from 310inHg upward in load was left untouched.
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Old 07-30-2005, 07:22 AM   #145
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Pardon the dumb question.

Is there any reasonable way to get Hydra to support more than 30 psig of boost ?

I expect you could put a bleed in the pressure line but that seems like a really bad idea ?
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Old 07-30-2005, 10:12 AM   #146
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What makes you think it can only support 30psi?
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Old 07-30-2005, 11:43 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
What makes you think it can only support 30psi?
I'm guessing the 3 Bar sensor...
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Old 07-30-2005, 01:32 PM   #148
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3 * 14.7 = 44.1
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Old 07-30-2005, 04:24 PM   #149
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The Element Hydra as delivered has a 3 bar maps sensor it's good for 30 psi but it will not shut down if you run more, you just run out of resolution.

You can always install an external 5 bar map sensor if you like but seriously who here needs more than about 32 psi? Besides me

Jblaine, you need to subtract 1 atmosphere from your calculation.

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Old 07-30-2005, 04:47 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
(3 * 14.7 = 44.1)-14.7=29.4
Fixed it for you. Remember that the sensor sees absolute pressure, not gauge pressure. So one bar is lost to atmospheric pressure.
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