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Old 03-16-2005, 06:11 PM   #1
Built Industries
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Default SBR INC. Q&A thread

I have started my own thread intending to answer some questions about the SBR GT series turbos for the WRX/ STI. I will not reply to rude, un-relevant, ridiculous, slanderous, or otherwise unless I see fit.

From the beginning, I have been very forthcoming about what my intentions were with the "GT 30" 700177 line up, and what types of hurdles/ obstacles we would be up against. The very first people to try these turbos, were also helpful from there input about oil/ water lines for the STI, because at the time we did not have access to one.

Here were my original goals for each of the following units.

700177-0010 2.0L WRX 300 AWHP
700177-0011 2.0L WRX 325 AWHP
700177-0012 2.0L WRX 350 AWHP
700177-0013 2.0L WRX 375 AWHP
700177-0014 2.0L WRX 400 AWHP

First a few assumptions:

2.0L stock motor (no head work, cams, etc)
All of the basic bolt on mods to allow you to turn up the boost safely, IE.
Turbo back exhaust
Catless Up pipe
Larger injectors
Some type of fuel management
FMIC of your choice
92 or higher pump gas
Moderate boost level (20-23 psi max)
Internal gate

Now, where did I come up with these #'s?

All of the compressor maps available on these CHRA's are in very large turbine housings. Garrett rates them as follows:

700177-0010 400 HP
700177-0011 425 HP
700177-0012 500 HP
700177-0013 550 HP
700177-0014 600 HP
GT35R 600 HP

Here are the #'s we have seen on a 2.0L motor (not EJ)

700177-0010 350 WHP (pump gas)
700177-0011 381 WHP (pump gas)
700177-0012 425 WHP (pump gas)
700177-0013 501 WHP (race gas)
700177-0014 533 WHP (race gas)
GT35R 546 WHP (pump gas) 639 WHP (race gas)

So, assuming a 2.0L DSM, or Honda runs 20% better than an EJ, you will see how I came up with my numbers. I have known from the beginning that people have not been tuning the EJ's as long as DSM's/ Honda's.. etc.. and therefore would be quite a learning curve.

Before you go saying that these #'s are in huge A/R housings, let me tell you our DSM housing is .48 a/r. The highest GT35R WHP # was in one of our housings.

The SBR WRX turbine housing was designed as a direct bolt on unit in late 2002 for the WRX. The final "cast" was put on the streets in the middle of 2003 for testing. The final A/R was between .55-.58, and we are still pleased with the outcome, given our stated goals above.

Will we cast a larger A/R housing in the future? I would have to say yes. Is it because we feel our housings will not meet our given goals? Not in any way. I just had no idea the main focus would be on the highest potential WHP, not usability and ease of use.

Now, since late 2003, early 2004 the STI has brought a whole new twist. What type of power do I assume they will make?

700177-0010 2.5L STI 325 AWHP
700177-0011 2.5L STI 350 AWHP $500.00 Jorge (riftswrx) 358 WHP/334 lb/ft
700177-0012 2.5L STI 375 AWHP
700177-0013 2.5L STI 400 AWHP
700177-0014 2.5L STI 425 AWHP

First a few assumptions:

2.5L stock motor (no head work, cams, etc)
All of the basic bolt on mods to allow you to turn up the boost safely, IE.
Turbo back exhaust
Catless Up pipe
Larger injectors
Some type of fuel management
FMIC of your choice
92 or higher pump gas
Moderate boost level (20-23 psi max)
Internal gate

Do I think these #'s are attainable?

ABSOLUTELY!

Should I put my money where my mouth is?

WHY NOT!

Here is the deal, the first person to meet my criteria stated above, will earn himself $500.00 CASH.

A few assumptions:

The person will allow us to use his car/ dyno graphs on our website, and in the forums. This will include hi-res pictures of the car, that we can use in our magazine articles/ adds as well.

Thats it! You can buy the turbo from any of our vendors, and if you make the AWHP, and can prove my conditions are met, I will personally show you the money! Once each goal is reached, the results will be posted, and that goal will no longer be eligible for payment.

Please feel free to ask any questions you wish, I will try my best to answer all of them the best I can.

MGH
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Last edited by Built Industries; 04-01-2005 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 03-16-2005, 06:32 PM   #2
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Why should somebody buy a gt-10 over a vf22 which will make the same power but cost less than half?

Why should someone buy a -11 or a -12 when a green will make more for a negligible price difference?

I'm basing these comparisons on your 'estimated' power levels and what the SBR turbos have proven thus far.
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Old 03-16-2005, 06:43 PM   #3
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This is motivation for me.....woooohoooooo. Time to fix that exhaust leak.
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Old 03-16-2005, 06:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowboy
Now, since late 2003, early 2004 the STI has brought a whole new twist. What type of power do I assume they will make?

700177-0010 2.0L WRX 325 AWHP
700177-0011 2.0L WRX 350 AWHP
700177-0012 2.0L WRX 375 AWHP
700177-0013 2.0L WRX 400 AWHP
700177-0014 2.0L WRX 425 AWHP


MGH
For the second set of numbers I think you mean:
700177-0010 2.5L STI 325 AWHP
700177-0011 2.5L STI 350 AWHP
700177-0012 2.5L STI 375 AWHP
700177-0013 2.5L STI 400 AWHP
700177-0014 2.5L STI 425 AWHP

With all due respect... if you have seen those number before, why not post the before and after dyno charts? I don't understand why vendors who sell parts, and have an in house dyno, don't post the charts.?

I'm no stanger to dyno testing and posting my results to nasioc,,, I've out-of-pocketd twice now:
Typhoon dyno test: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=658632
Exhaust dyno test: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=713673

I might be willing to put the 0012 to the test, but I'd want to use the factory tmic, (or maybe an aftermarket tmic).. but then again, I don't understand why you put the burdon on the end-user when you have these numbers/charts to share already?
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Old 03-16-2005, 07:04 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWRX

With all due respect... if you have seen those number before, why not post the before and after dyno charts? I don't understand why vendors who sell parts, and have an in house dyno, don't post the charts.?
I to am going to tread on this lightly as to not have another flame fest but i believe what he is saying by him seing those numbers, is he saw them with the various Chra's but on DSM's..

I too am going to say this as respectfully and seriously as i can so do not take this the wrong way.. Paying people to get the results you want to see is hardly the right way to go about this.. I am sure that the majority of the comunity, myself included could care less when someone on here posts they made xxwhp with xx turbo if they just made $500 to do so.. These numbers should happen on their own..
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Old 03-16-2005, 07:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick
This is motivation for me.....woooohoooooo. Time to fix that exhaust leak.
Exactly what I was thinking. Water/alcy injection is NOT on the list dude so no cheating....

I need to know exactly what I'm shooting for. SBR, can you please help me out by letting me know what a typical/average STi dynos on your dyno? What type of dyno is it?

I assume I have to drive to your dyno, or will you accept other shop's dyno charts? Seems you would want this done on your dyno b/c if you let any dyno chart be used... well, let's just say dynos can be manipulated very, very easily and some people might want to fudge the #s a little.

EDIT: Just re-read your post. Sounds like you will accept dynos from other shops, but you need to be able to review the dyno charts in depth and I assume you would want to have a telephone conversation with the tuner/dyno operator? I'm not sure and I'm very curious how you are going to determine results are "acceptable"....

Last edited by SilverSurfer04STi; 03-16-2005 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 03-16-2005, 07:35 PM   #7
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It’s fine to pay to use results from customers for marketing. That has been a long established method of doing business in all market segments. The rub would be what if the turbos don’t live up to their/your expectation? You’re going to have a few of customers disappointed and out full value where they could have purchased a green instead. Would you consider a refund for the return of the turbo at that point? That would be really putting your money where you mouth is.
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Old 03-16-2005, 08:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick
This is motivation for me.....woooohoooooo. Time to fix that exhaust leak.
Thats what I am talking about!

MGH
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Old 03-16-2005, 08:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSurfer04STi
Exactly what I was thinking. Water/alcy injection is NOT on the list dude so no cheating....

I need to know exactly what I'm shooting for. SBR, can you please help me out by letting me know what a typical/average STi dynos on your dyno? What type of dyno is it?

I assume I have to drive to your dyno, or will you accept other shop's dyno charts? Seems you would want this done on your dyno b/c if you let any dyno chart be used... well, let's just say dynos can be manipulated very, very easily and some people might want to fudge the #s a little.

EDIT: Just re-read your post. Sounds like you will accept dynos from other shops, but you need to be able to review the dyno charts in depth and I assume you would want to have a telephone conversation with the tuner/dyno operator? I'm not sure and I'm very curious how you are going to determine results are "acceptable"....
I have only had my AWD Dynapack for about three weeks now (only had 2wd before) but my bone stock STI made 240 AWHP, and 239 ft/ lbs.

Yes, others dyno's are just fine with me. Of course I will have to do some checking, but I would expect the people who take this challenge to have some integrity, since the results will be in magazines, and on the website. I think dealing with the NASIOC people will prove to be a good decision.

MGH
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Old 03-16-2005, 08:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StiDreams
It’s fine to pay to use results from customers for marketing. That has been a long established method of doing business in all market segments. The rub would be what if the turbos don’t live up to their/your expectation? You’re going to have a few of customers disappointed and out full value where they could have purchased a green instead. Would you consider a refund for the return of the turbo at that point? That would be really putting your money where you mouth is.
The idea is not to sway them into buying this turbo. There are already over 100 units on cars already, so even if no one else bought one, the challenge is still on!

My guess is, now people will spend a little more time trying to figure out what makes the GT30 "tick" on an EJ motor, rather than just slap it on, spend an hour on the dyno, and draw there conclusions.

Why would I consider a return? How would I know they went through there due dilligence and tried everything they could? The firt time I had my -12 on my DSM I almost cried, then I spent a few hours on the dyno, and a few track events, a few more hours on the dyno, and was rewarded with a car that ran 122-123 MPH trap speeds, and spooled up like a big 16g... Things take time. What works for me, may or may not work for you.

The challenge is out, if you do not like my rules, simply do not play the game! (not meant to be mean, since people think I am)

MGH
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Old 03-16-2005, 08:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronic
I to am going to tread on this lightly as to not have another flame fest but i believe what he is saying by him seing those numbers, is he saw them with the various Chra's but on DSM's..

I too am going to say this as respectfully and seriously as i can so do not take this the wrong way.. Paying people to get the results you want to see is hardly the right way to go about this.. I am sure that the majority of the comunity, myself included could care less when someone on here posts they made xxwhp with xx turbo if they just made $500 to do so.. These numbers should happen on their own..
What is any different from doing this, and say giving someone a free turbo to see if they can post results? I think its a fun idea, and look forward to it!

I know I have a lot of turbos out there, and I know not everyone has started to tune them, or even had them on a dyno. This is just a little kick in the pants to get them to do so!

You are correct, the #'s I have seen that I posted above were all DSM, with the excpetion of one which was a wicked B18 build we did about two years back. (gasp... Honda)

MGH
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Old 03-16-2005, 08:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWRX
For the second set of numbers I think you mean:
700177-0010 2.5L STI 325 AWHP
700177-0011 2.5L STI 350 AWHP
700177-0012 2.5L STI 375 AWHP
700177-0013 2.5L STI 400 AWHP
700177-0014 2.5L STI 425 AWHP

With all due respect... if you have seen those number before, why not post the before and after dyno charts? I don't understand why vendors who sell parts, and have an in house dyno, don't post the charts.?

I'm no stanger to dyno testing and posting my results to nasioc,,, I've out-of-pocketd twice now:
Typhoon dyno test: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=658632
Exhaust dyno test: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=713673

I might be willing to put the 0012 to the test, but I'd want to use the factory tmic, (or maybe an aftermarket tmic).. but then again, I don't understand why you put the burdon on the end-user when you have these numbers/charts to share already?
You are correct, copy and paste is my worst enemy! I will see if I can change it!

MGH
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Old 03-16-2005, 08:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowboy
What is any different from doing this, and say giving someone a free turbo to see if they can post results? I think its a fun idea, and look forward to it!

I know I have a lot of turbos out there, and I know not everyone has started to tune them, or even had them on a dyno. This is just a little kick in the pants to get them to do so!

You are correct, the #'s I have seen that I posted above were all DSM, with the excpetion of one which was a wicked B18 build we did about two years back. (gasp... Honda)

MGH
The only thing i see wrong is this, you are giving people a number to achieve, and now we are not going to get a fair idea of what these can do.. Some peple are willing to tune to the ragged edge for that $500.. I am curious to what these can do on a reliable tune, not a one pull squeeze out as much whp as possable tune for the money, then back it down.. It just seems to me you are paying them to hit the numbers you want to see..

In all honesty those numbers for each turbo should be able to be reached with NO effort, vf30's make 300whp all day, greens make 360-375 whp, etc.. If these turbos can't even hit these numbers then ther is a bigger problem then even i thought.. If you allow water injection that is even better for these guys to win some money..

Good luck guys, this should be a walk in the park..
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Old 03-16-2005, 08:55 PM   #14
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*subscribed*

You can doo it!
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:05 PM   #15
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I think the bar should be raised a bit, after all we are talking about GT30's here., not IHI's or FP greens.

Thats just my 2 cents

Best wishes to the guys goin after the HP, it will be fun to see the numbers come in.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronic
The only thing i see wrong is this, you are giving people a number to achieve, and now we are not going to get a fair idea of what these can do.. Some peple are willing to tune to the ragged edge for that $500.. I am curious to what these can do on a reliable tune, not a one pull squeeze out as much whp as possable tune for the money, then back it down.. It just seems to me you are paying them to hit the numbers you want to see..

In all honesty those numbers for each turbo should be able to be reached with NO effort, vf30's make 300whp all day, greens make 360-375 whp, etc.. If these turbos can't even hit these numbers then ther is a bigger problem then even i thought.. If you allow water injection that is even better for these guys to win some money..

Good luck guys, this should be a walk in the park..
Meh, people can easily include a/f readings and such to show how aggresive of a tune they are using. You will also see a few blown motors if indeed they decide thier engine is worth $500, which there are very few people who bieleve this.

It does seem you are trying to pick apart his challenge though...his challenge can only mean good things. I dont mean good things as in big #'s...i mean good things in that we will see just what these turbos can do. More information about different turbos and combinations on our cars is only going to benefit the Subaru community and further our knowledge of what does work and what doesnt work.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:13 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swine

It does seem you are trying to pick apart his challenge though...
Dang.. you got me

Either way the more i think about it, they shouldn't have to be that agressive to break these numbers. I will draw my own conclusions by the power made, not by the bar that is set.. Like Mark said the bar is low, the 49lb green could meet the -13 goal, and if wi is ok possably even the -14..

Like i said, i hope these guys ,make some money!
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:17 PM   #18
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I am extremely interested in this idea...I have been interested in the GT30R for quite a while and would love to give it a try. I have my car tuned at TurboXS so they know what they are doing and will do ot safely for me. I assume that fuel system work would be a requirement as well. Who are your vendors? Let me know....I'll bite
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swine
Meh, people can easily include a/f readings and such to show how aggresive of a tune they are using. You will also see a few blown motors if indeed they decide thier engine is worth $500, which there are very few people who bieleve this.

It does seem you are trying to pick apart his challenge though...his challenge can only mean good things. I dont mean good things as in big #'s...i mean good things in that we will see just what these turbos can do. More information about different turbos and combinations on our cars is only going to benefit the Subaru community and further our knowledge of what does work and what doesnt work.
Exactly. If people are going to tune to the ragged edge it's gonna be pretty apparent in their #s. They are gonna either be using high boost, lean A/F ratios, too much timing, or a bad combo of all three. Also, if people are crazy enough to risk their stock blocks for $500 then so be it. Either way, this can only mean more info for the forum. So everybody please stop complaining. Just go to the other thread with 18+ pages to complain. Let's try to keep this thread civil and informative with real life info.... NOT opinions.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowboy
I have only had my AWD Dynapack for about three weeks now (only had 2wd before) but my bone stock STI made 240 AWHP, and 239 ft/ lbs.

Yes, others dyno's are just fine with me. Of course I will have to do some checking, but I would expect the people who take this challenge to have some integrity, since the results will be in magazines, and on the website. I think dealing with the NASIOC people will prove to be a good decision.

MGH
OK. Don't get me wrong here b/c I love this idea, but I'm going to be at a huge disadvantage. I'm getting my initial tune for my GT12 on a super conservative dynodynamics. A stock STi averages ~215whp on this dyno. I'm pretty much screwed. I would need to make ~415whp to get 375 on this dyno. I will still post my #s, but I don't have a prayer to hit 375whp on this dyno...

What are your thoughts on this SBR?
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:35 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronic
Dang.. you got me

Either way the more i think about it, they shouldn't have to be that agressive to break these numbers. I will draw my own conclusions by the power made, not by the bar that is set.. Like Mark said the bar is low, the 49lb green could meet the -13 goal, and if wi is ok possably even the -14..

Like i said, i hope these guys ,make some money!

So are you for or against his challenge? If anything, i see it as free entertainment...the truth about what kind of power SB's turbos really make will eventually emerge after we have a few canidates(not me). If everything is covered as extensive as SB says it must be...you'll see everything you would need to to decide how efficiently his turbo's are running and how aggressive of a map that it is.

I dont see the problem of a low goal set for each turbo...it just means SB is going to be sending some checks out very quickly(unless they are as bad as some make them out to be...). Its not like someone is going to stop tunning on their turbo once they reach their mark if it still has some more left in it. I dont really know where i am going with this ...but i can find NO problems with this challenge. It is going to benefit the entire suby community. Is there a better way to challenge his customers? Im sure there is, but it seems hes pretty desperate for someone to throw some numbers up.


Please pm if you have a response that you want me to hear...i want to try and keep this thread clean.
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSurfer04STi
OK. Don't get me wrong here b/c I love this idea, but I'm going to be at a huge disadvantage. I'm getting my initial tune for my GT12 on a super conservative dynodynamics. A stock STi averages ~215whp on this dyno. I'm pretty much screwed. I would need to make ~415whp to get 375 on this dyno. I will still post my #s, but I don't have a prayer to hit 375whp on this dyno...

What are your thoughts on this SBR?
My thoughts are I will work with you on the fine details. My SRT-4 made 408 WHP on a dynodynamics, and one month later on the same tune up made 442 on my own dynapack. I understand the subtle differences between the dyno's. Not to say I would just hand it over, but I would certainly be fair if you were close

MGH
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:33 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swine
So are you for or against his challenge? If anything, i see it as free entertainment...the truth about what kind of power SB's turbos really make will eventually emerge after we have a few canidates(not me). If everything is covered as extensive as SB says it must be...you'll see everything you would need to to decide how efficiently his turbo's are running and how aggressive of a map that it is.

I dont see the problem of a low goal set for each turbo...it just means SB is going to be sending some checks out very quickly(unless they are as bad as some make them out to be...). Its not like someone is going to stop tunning on their turbo once they reach their mark if it still has some more left in it. I dont really know where i am going with this ...but i can find NO problems with this challenge. It is going to benefit the entire suby community. Is there a better way to challenge his customers? Im sure there is, but it seems hes pretty desperate for someone to throw some numbers up.


Please pm if you have a response that you want me to hear...i want to try and keep this thread clean.
Just for 100% clarification, I am not desperate. I just have NO time to work on my own STI (which I bought, because I wanted to learn more about your beloved EJ's). I have sponsors who need my NHRA Modified Eclipse at the track this year, and I am 3 weeks behind schedule!

So, I was hoping this would be a little fun, and people can benefit from it!

If I read your post wrong, sorry. Just wanted to clarify.

MGH
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:35 PM   #24
grantn
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Will you accept EWG setup?
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACK02WAGON
I am extremely interested in this idea...I have been interested in the GT30R for quite a while and would love to give it a try. I have my car tuned at TurboXS so they know what they are doing and will do ot safely for me. I assume that fuel system work would be a requirement as well. Who are your vendors? Let me know....I'll bite
Can someone please post a vendor list that supports NASIOC, and has dealt with SBR in the past/ present?

If I do not see a list on 3/17, I will ask one of the moderators to help me out.

MGH
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