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Old 03-24-2005, 05:24 PM   #1
happasaiyan
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Default higher octane + knock

alright, so ive been tuning my car for what seems like forever now. ive always had somewhat random knock events with utec displaying '1' in the knock column.

so anyways, i bought a case of unleaded torco and put in half of a bottle. the can says 1 bottle + 10 gals = 104octane. mine was .5 bottle for 16 gals, so im assuming thats at least 95octane or so.

after doing a few pulls today, i still saw my CEL blink on one of the runs. sorry, my laptop battery was dead, and didnt get any logs, but im sure what happened was nothing that hasnt happened everyday.

is it a safe assumption that the "knock" im getting shown in my utec logs is false? maybe i just have a noisy block? thanks in advance...
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Old 03-25-2005, 01:12 AM   #2
hippy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
....is it a safe assumption that the "knock" im getting shown in my utec logs is false?...
Imo ya can't blindly say that something isn't knock just cause it happens on 93 octane and 95 octane. Log it.....

peace
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:13 AM   #3
happasaiyan
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it has been logged...hundreds of times before. i can do the same run in the same exact place with the same exact temperature, and sometimes it will report knock...and sometimes it wont.

Code:
 2694  +2.9 3.2 100  20    00   +29.6   17.0 +28.0  -2.2 410.00 2.8  13.53 
 2686  +3.7 3.1 100  20    00   +29.7   18.2 +28.0  -2.6 410.00 2.8  13.33 
 2782  +4.7 3.3 100  20    00   +28.6   20.1 +28.4  -2.8 410.00 2.9  13.42 
 2812  +5.5 3.4 101  30    00   +26.0   22.4 +20.2  -2.6 410.00 2.9  13.47 
 2893  +6.5 3.4 100  30    00   +23.6   23.8 +20.4  -2.8 410.00 3.1  13.09 
 2911  +7.6 3.5 100  30    00   +21.4   25.3 +20.7  -2.9 410.00 3.1  12.74 
 2962  +8.8 3.6 100  40    00   +18.4   28.5 +19.0  -0.5 410.00 3.1  12.61 
 3044 +10.0 3.6 100  40    00   +16.6   31.0 +19.0  -0.6 410.00 3.4  12.37 
 3080 +11.4 3.7 100  50    00   +15.0   33.6 +16.0  +0.7 410.00 3.3  12.02 
 3162 +12.7 3.8 100  50    00   +12.0   35.7 +16.0  +0.8 410.00 3.5  11.92 
 3171 +13.9 3.9 100  60    00   +11.3   38.4 +14.0  +2.3 410.00 3.6  11.77 
 3267 +15.7 3.8 100  60    00    +9.0   42.8 +14.0  +2.8 410.00 3.6  11.58 
 3323 +17.4 4.0 100  70    00    +8.3   44.7 +13.0  +3.5 410.00 3.7  11.37 
 3397 +19.0 4.0 100  80    00    +7.9   45.5 +12.0  +4.4 410.00 3.7  11.20 
 3531 +20.0 4.1 100  80    00    +7.8   50.3 +12.0  +3.6 410.00 3.7  11.27 
 3508 +20.8 4.1 100  80    00    +7.7   48.7 +12.0  +4.6 410.00 3.9  11.28 
 3646 +21.0 4.1 100  80    00    +7.6   49.7 +12.0  +3.8 410.00 3.8  11.23 
 3650 +21.2 4.2 100  80    00    +8.2   53.2 +12.0  +3.9 410.00 3.9  11.23 
 3796 +21.6 4.1 100  80    00    +8.6   55.0 +12.0  +3.3 410.00 3.8  11.27 
 3866 +21.8 4.1 100  80    00    +9.4   55.2 +12.0  +2.9 410.00 3.8  11.20 
 3916 +22.0 4.3 100  80    00    +9.7   57.7 +12.0  +2.4 410.00 3.8  11.17 
 3982 +22.5 4.3 100  80    00   +10.4   57.9 +12.0  +1.1 410.00 3.8  11.05 
 4089 +22.2 4.2 100  80    00   +10.6   60.7 +12.1  +1.6 410.00 3.9  11.01 
 4079 +22.2 4.3 100  80    00   +10.6   63.3 +12.2  +1.4 410.00 3.9  11.02 
 4166 +22.2 4.4 100  80    00   +10.6   63.4 +12.3  +1.2 410.00 4.0  10.95 
 4301 +22.2 4.4 100  80    00   +10.7   65.3 +12.5  +0.5 410.00 4.0  11.01 
 4340 +22.0 4.4 100  80    00   +11.1   64.5 +12.5  +0.8 410.00 4.0  11.14 
 4385 +22.2 4.5 100  80    00   +11.1   66.7 +12.8  +0.6 410.00 4.0  11.14 
 4541 +22.5 4.5 100  80    00   +11.4   66.3 +12.9  +0.6 410.00 4.0  11.08 
 4553 +21.8 4.5 100  80    00   +12.5   66.8 +13.0  +0.4 410.00 4.0  11.11 
 4516 +22.2 4.5 100  80    00   +13.0   71.2 +13.1  +0.4 410.00 4.0  11.18 
 4623 +22.0 4.5 100  80    00   +13.7   76.4 +13.4  +0.1 410.00 4.1  11.11 
 4694 +21.6 4.6 100  80    00   +14.0   69.7 +13.4  +0.0 410.00 4.1  11.02 
 4823 +22.0 4.6 100  80    00   +15.5   72.0 +13.5  -0.1 410.00 4.1  11.08 
 4909 +22.0 4.5 100  80    00   +15.3   76.0 +13.6  -0.1 410.00 4.1  11.11 
 4923 +22.0 4.5 100  80    00   +15.3   73.6 +13.7  -0.1 410.00 4.1  11.08 
 5020 +21.6 4.6 100  80    00   +15.2   77.6 +14.1  -0.1 410.00 4.1  11.06 
 5027 +21.8 4.7 100  80    00   +14.9   79.9 +14.0  -0.1 410.00 4.2  11.05 
 5151 +21.2 4.6 100  80    00   +15.3   75.5 +14.1  -0.1 410.00 4.2  11.01 
 5175 +21.2 4.7 100  80    01   +15.2   80.6 +14.2  -0.1 410.00 4.2  10.99 
 5291 +21.8 4.7 100  80    00   +15.1   78.8 +14.5  +0.2 410.00 4.2  11.01 
 5446 +21.6 4.7 100  80    00   +14.8   80.2 +14.5  +0.1 410.00 4.2  11.01 
 5316 +21.8 4.6 100  80    00   +15.0   81.9 +14.6  +0.2 410.00 4.2  10.96 
 5385 +22.0 4.7 100  80    00   +14.5   82.0 +14.8  +0.2 410.00 4.2  10.87 
 5500 +21.6 4.7 100  80    00   +14.7   82.4 +15.0  +0.3 410.00 4.2  10.81 
 5491 +21.4 4.7 100  80    00   +14.6   84.8 +15.1  +0.3 410.00 4.2  10.81 
 5592 +21.4 4.7 100  80    00   +14.7   85.2 +15.2  +0.3 410.00 4.2  10.86 
 5757 +21.6 4.7 100  80    00   +14.6   85.0 +15.4  +0.2 410.00 4.3  10.89 
 5807 +21.4 4.7 100  80    00   +15.0   83.2 +15.6  +0.3 405.00 4.3  10.93 
 5889 +21.2 4.7 100  80    00   +15.0   84.8 +15.6  +0.2 405.00 4.3  10.95
heres an example. usually the reported knock is around 5800-6300. usually. this is an exception, and i did a run like this today and saw the cel flash right around the 5k mark. thats with the higher octane. i know the torco is mixed in...i can smell it.

i know "blindly" saying that something isnt knock isnt the smartest thing. but when i started this all, in areas i used to have 17* ignition advance, i was getting the same symptoms (sometimes would show "knock"...sometimes not). now im down to 14 and 15* advance, and its the same thing...even with higher octane.

keep in mind- the stock sensor NEVER sees ANY of this as knock.
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Old 03-25-2005, 08:01 AM   #4
hippy
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What are your egt's like? Do they seem the be climbing really quick? How do you know the stock knock sensor doesn't see the knock? Do you look at the advance multiplier or something? Have you tried makin the a/f ratio richer? How about turning the boost down? Maybe it isn't knock, but I wouldn't bet on it. Some people pay no attention to knock counts of 1, but......

peace
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Old 03-25-2005, 08:52 AM   #5
scooby24
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You're not removing any timing for a 1 count?

hmm...what kind of changes do you have set in your parameters to keep it form pulling timing for that? Mine will pull for anything and it annoys the piss outta me.


But one thing I'll mention...even on random 1 counts like that if I go back through and remove some timing and/or add fuel that will usually go away. If you do this does it still not go away?

If so I would say it's just a misreading.


Edit: And where are you getting this Torco stuff? how much is it?
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Old 03-25-2005, 09:27 AM   #6
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To be able to tell for sure if it is det or not. You heed a set of det cans. IMO that is the ONLY way to tell for sure.

TMS
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Old 03-25-2005, 10:40 AM   #7
happasaiyan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
What are your egt's like? Do they seem the be climbing really quick? How do you know the stock knock sensor doesn't see the knock? Do you look at the advance multiplier or something? Have you tried makin the a/f ratio richer? How about turning the boost down? Maybe it isn't knock, but I wouldn't bet on it. Some people pay no attention to knock counts of 1, but......

peace
EGTs on this run were 1540F, if memory serves. runs to redline in 4th = 1560F, runs to redline in 5th = 1610F.

i know the stock knock sensor doesnt see any knock because if you look at the stock ecu timing, it never gets retarded where the utec/tuna sees the knock. also- i have the ST...and in the logs never see it report knock in the higher rpm area.

turning the boost down results in more of the same.
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Old 03-25-2005, 10:48 AM   #8
happasaiyan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooby24
You're not removing any timing for a 1 count?

hmm...what kind of changes do you have set in your parameters to keep it form pulling timing for that? Mine will pull for anything and it annoys the piss outta me.


But one thing I'll mention...even on random 1 counts like that if I go back through and remove some timing and/or add fuel that will usually go away. If you do this does it still not go away?

If so I would say it's just a misreading.


Edit: And where are you getting this Torco stuff? how much is it?
nope. i believe it is in the tuner section of the parameters...

at this point, i am already running pretty rich...and timing is very retarded.

got the torco from need4speedpower.com came out to 80 bucks or so for 6 cans shipped.
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Old 03-25-2005, 10:49 AM   #9
happasaiyan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadScientist
To be able to tell for sure if it is det or not. You heed a set of det cans. IMO that is the ONLY way to tell for sure.

TMS
i have a tuna hooked up with the bosch sensor...but cant drive with headphones on...
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Old 03-25-2005, 10:50 AM   #10
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Weird... did you try to pull like 2 degrees of timing? You may be past the miniimum best timing, and just chancing engine damage without any power benefit. Knock isnt somethign to screw with if you ask me, i mean it doesnt take too much at 6k rpm to seriously damage an engine.

Also, what mods are you running?

There is a setting on the UTEC to turn down the knock sensitivity, which sometimes has to be done on really high HP cars. Initially the UTEC is set to a really sensitive knock setting. Are you running over 400HP?
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Old 03-25-2005, 11:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
i have a tuna hooked up with the bosch sensor...but cant drive with headphones on...
I use a CD to tape deck adapter from the tuna to the head unit. Alot of people think I am nuts for listening to the knock sensor as much as I do.

TMS
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Old 03-25-2005, 11:14 AM   #12
happasaiyan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger5oh
Weird... did you try to pull like 2 degrees of timing? You may be past the miniimum best timing, and just chancing engine damage without any power benefit. Knock isnt somethign to screw with if you ask me, i mean it doesnt take too much at 6k rpm to seriously damage an engine.

Also, what mods are you running?

There is a setting on the UTEC to turn down the knock sensitivity, which sometimes has to be done on really high HP cars. Initially the UTEC is set to a really sensitive knock setting. Are you running over 400HP?
i highly highly doubt i am anywhere in the vicinity of MBT. did you look at my ignition advance from the logs? most people think im nuts for running such retarded ignition advance.

mods:
aps sr50 deadbolt pnp'd and coated
aps dr500 fmic
gruppe-s coated, wrapped and sprayed header
aps uppipe
godspeed downpipe
greddy evo
blitz sus intake
samco maf + turbo inlet
UR 785cc injectors + rails
utec + tuna + ST

i think thats it...

i have turned down the knock sensor a few points...but didnt want to turn it down any more for obvious reasons. im not over 400whp...MAYBE around 400chp? i dunno, i havent dynoed my car since i added all these mods.
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Old 03-25-2005, 11:18 AM   #13
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some of my thoughts:

ecutek flashes are considered to be the safer alternative to tuning...but doesnt it make you wonder- since my stock ecu doesnt see all these knock events that the txs tuna does see? so potentially, if i (or some pro) were tuning my car with a flash...would i(they) be oblivious to potential knock? makes me wonder...
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Old 03-25-2005, 11:18 AM   #14
happasaiyan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadScientist
I use a CD to tape deck adapter from the tuna to the head unit. Alot of people think I am nuts for listening to the knock sensor as much as I do.

TMS
no tape deck
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Old 03-25-2005, 11:20 AM   #15
happasaiyan
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heh. also makes me wonder...what if when i get the reported knock...maybe i just hit a small bump and my exhaust bangs into the diff and gets reported as knock
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Old 03-25-2005, 11:32 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
i highly highly doubt i am anywhere in the vicinity of MBT. did you look at my ignition advance from the logs? most people think im nuts for running such retarded ignition advance.

mods:
aps sr50 deadbolt pnp'd and coated
aps dr500 fmic
gruppe-s coated, wrapped and sprayed header
aps uppipe
godspeed downpipe
greddy evo
blitz sus intake
samco maf + turbo inlet
UR 785cc injectors + rails
utec + tuna + ST

i think thats it...

i have turned down the knock sensor a few points...but didnt want to turn it down any more for obvious reasons. im not over 400whp...MAYBE around 400chp? i dunno, i havent dynoed my car since i added all these mods.
I have to run very similar advance, maybe a 1* more on a gt 10. How come you never get into the 100 column?
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Old 03-25-2005, 11:35 AM   #17
happasaiyan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrex03
I have to run very similar advance, maybe a 1* more on a gt 10. How come you never get into the 100 column?
good to know, thanks!

i never get into the 100 column, because im mapped out to 25psi for a safeguard. heh, it came in handy once
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:42 PM   #18
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More boost and load(higher flow) creates more heat, and you're running the same a/f ratio if not leaner then many people who run a lot less boost and make a lot less power. Ya might wanna try running a richer a/f ratio and/or lowering the boost.

peace
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:14 PM   #19
Jon [in CT]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
i have a tuna hooked up with the bosch sensor...but cant drive with headphones on...
Why not? As TheMadScientist observed, it's the best affordable method for detecting knock.
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:25 PM   #20
hippy
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You could hook it upto an aux input on your stereo(if you have one) and listen through that....
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Old 03-25-2005, 05:17 PM   #21
ride5000
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happ, PUT ON THE HEADPHONES.

chances are, it's not real knock. when you keep getting tiny reports (and a 1 count is tiny) despite octane changes, then that's a clue it's not really knocking. but again, you can't be sure unless you use that ECU between your ears...

ken
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