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Old 03-25-2005, 05:10 AM   #1
Bill
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Default UTEC question (no logs or maps)

I'm continuing down the long slippery slope of upgrading my car. I am about to jump into the world of UTEC tuning, but it seems like kind of a black art. This 1st time around I'm going to get professionally tuned, but I want to be able to do the tweaking and adjusting my self.

A quick look at some of the base maps, it seems like you go from ECU control to some large changes right away. And one of the biggest gripes I here about UTECs is problems at the ECU-UTEC control transitions. So my question is how would I go about making a UTEC map that behaved exactly like the stock ECU? I don't mean fill all the maps with 0 or -100, I mean put numbers in the maps that are very close to what the stock ecu would come up with. I think knowing how much and how fast you are deviating from stock would make it much easier to do smooth transitions.

Maybe somebody has already done this?
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Old 03-25-2005, 08:07 AM   #2
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People have tried, some with better luck then others. It's not as easy as it sounds for many reasons.

peace
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Old 03-25-2005, 01:33 PM   #3
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Here's an example of what you're talking about - a quick look at ECU timing at say idle, is vastly different from what most maps have in them. Timing at idle when controled by the ECU is around 12-/+ deg advance (EJ205). The maps provided by TXS, are always around 28 deg advance for idle (give or take). Not sure why but that's what they do. When I get everything back together on my car I will experiment with this. You're right though, there shouldn't be such a disparity between ECU values and UTEC when they transition IMO. You also don't want to have large jumps in timing from rpm cell to rpm cell. Fuel is another area of concern in UTEC. It's not that bad though. UTEC is actually easy to use once you've spent some time with it. Spend enough time with it and you can some day tune a map from zero values in it. Just need the tools and experience.

Todd
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:03 PM   #4
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just go out and log a normal around town drive.

every time you cross over to utec control, note what the timing is for the stock ecu on that line. then go back to the utec map and change that cell to that value. smoothly ramp down timing from there. eventually you will have an idea as to what the stock ecu runs timing wise in low load situations.

its not all that hard.
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:56 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmarcel
Here's an example of what you're talking about - a quick look at ECU timing at say idle, is vastly different from what most maps have in them. Timing at idle when controled by the ECU is around 12-/+ deg advance (EJ205). The maps provided by TXS, are always around 28 deg advance for idle (give or take). Not sure why but that's what they do.....
The maps from txs don't have 28 degrees of timing at idle, they all let the ecu control the timing while at idle.
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Old 03-25-2005, 06:02 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
The maps from txs don't have 28 degrees of timing at idle, they all let the ecu control the timing while at idle.
All they adjust is the fueling for larger injectors, the stock ECU does a fine job of handling timing, at idle.
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Old 03-25-2005, 06:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
just go out and log a normal around town drive.

every time you cross over to utec control, note what the timing is for the stock ecu on that line. then go back to the utec map and change that cell to that value. smoothly ramp down timing from there. eventually you will have an idea as to what the stock ecu runs timing wise in low load situations.

its not all that hard.
agreed, this can/will help cure some of the stumbles you may have on transitions near the crossover %.
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Old 03-25-2005, 09:57 PM   #8
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The reason it is hard is because the ECU timing values are constantly moving around. Not by much, but one run it might run +32deg at 3500, and another it runs 35deg. Now trying to hit a moving target is a lot harder. You can make it fairly smooth, but there will be certain conditions etc. that you may notice it now and then. It all depends on how much the ECU swings the timing, if there is only 2-3deg difference between the ECU timing and the UTEC timing at a certain x-over point, then things will be fairly smooth, however, if the stock ECU decides to run 4-6deg more or less on a givin run during x-over, you might feel it.

-jason
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Old 03-25-2005, 10:18 PM   #9
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so can i run the utec on a bonestock STi safely? you guys are scaring me, dunno if i want to put mine in...
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Old 03-25-2005, 10:42 PM   #10
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If we can run UTECs on modified STis, then yes, stock is safe. You have nice maps from TurboXS to plug right in for starters. It's a great way to start the learning curve. With a stock motor there's lots more support for you out there too... since all the stock motors are set up the same, and none of the modified ones are.

I'd install it, run it, and start reading everything from here, and wrxhackers and the UTEC tuners guide, and just let it slowly sink in. It's a lot at once to wrap your head around, but eventually you'll get to the point where you feel worthy enough to ask for help, and to almsot know what they are talking about. That's where I am now. I'm building a map for my car and it's progressing slowly, but it's progressing. I've mastered my fear of playing with fuel maps and delving into the timing map (the boost map isn't that bad at all)

If you want to get it down with the greatest of ease, get the tuner as well. I tried with the LM-1 wideband for a while but it was hard to stay motivated enough to combine the logs and really check the results well.

At any rate, don't worry about the UTEC. The support is out there. The product is great.
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Old 03-25-2005, 10:49 PM   #11
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It's not that you can't tune a utec safely, but removing the hasitation problem can be more difficult them you'd think. Could be a lot easier too depending on the setup.....

peace
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Old 03-26-2005, 02:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
The maps from txs don't have 28 degrees of timing at idle, they all let the ecu control the timing while at idle.
You took that out of context. The ECU (with or without UTEC) is running 12 -/+ BTDC. You and I both know that UTEC doesn't do anything unless you program that in the 0% column and then it would run 12 deg or whatever you tell it to. I was simply saying that the UTEC maps have 28 deg or similar and that's at the transition point.
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Old 03-26-2005, 02:23 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmussetter
The reason it is hard is because the ECU timing values are constantly moving around. Not by much, but one run it might run +32deg at 3500, and another it runs 35deg. Now trying to hit a moving target is a lot harder. You can make it fairly smooth, but there will be certain conditions etc. that you may notice it now and then. It all depends on how much the ECU swings the timing, if there is only 2-3deg difference between the ECU timing and the UTEC timing at a certain x-over point, then things will be fairly smooth, however, if the stock ECU decides to run 4-6deg more or less on a givin run during x-over, you might feel it.

-jason
Yep, the timing is on the move when the ECU is in control. This can pose the stumble issue even at your best attempt to rid it. This is not directed at you Jason, but I wonder how many of you guys have programmed in fixed timing values in the 0% column of UTEC? I believe that this can work well for at least part of the 0% cells. On another note, how many of you have tuned standalone EM's? If you have, you will know that the values are fixed (at least the ones that I've experienced). The only way they move is when boost is detected and you can tell it to retard timing as manifold pressure increases. The standalone function of UTEC should be no different (except that it won't retard boost when manifold pressure rises).

Todd
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Old 03-26-2005, 02:40 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2phless
At any rate, don't worry about the UTEC. The support is out there. The product is great.

The product is good but not great. It's got a few things lacking that I'd love to see in it. For one, timing, boost control, and knock are standalone or damn close to it. Fuel for what ever reason is still like any other piggy back. I think they've got the talent to add a closer to standalone feature in rather than the MAF based one that's in there now. Hey, maybe it's in the works? This would make life a lot easier for tuning big injectors that have either poor or varying spray patterns. Another wsh would be to add realtime programming and not the gay hit enter and then have to back out of the screen to get it to take the changes. That's really annoying BTW. None the less still a strong product.
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:18 AM   #15
happasaiyan
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i would say its a great product...

...and that thought is further strengthened after using other solutions...
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:19 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmarcel
You took that out of context. The ECU (with or without UTEC) is running 12 -/+ BTDC. You and I both know that UTEC doesn't do anything unless you program that in the 0% column and then it would run 12 deg or whatever you tell it to. I was simply saying that the UTEC maps have 28 deg or similar and that's at the transition point.
Yeh, but once you push the throttle, the ecu also runs more advanced timing then what it does at idle. The timing at idle has nothing to do with the hesitation people get. Also, the reason it's hard to fix the hesitation isn't just cause the ecu timing values are moving around. There are many variables. First would be that the crossover to hard throttle is based on tps and not map pressure. Because of this, you could end up letting the throttle go down and come from hard throttle to part throttle(utec to ecu transition) and be going from the 40% load column with richer a/f ratios and more retarded timing then if you went from the 10% load column to ecu control. Also, since the utec doesn't fuel perfectly, if the maf voltages change in a given load column(lets say the 10% load column), the a/f ratio can also change a bit. You can think you've fixed the hesitation one day, and the next day have same problem.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 03-26-2005 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 03-26-2005, 01:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
i would say its a great product...

...and that thought is further strengthened after using other solutions...
Come on man. You mean to tell me that having to back out of a screen for the values that you just changed isn't annoying? Have you ever had your hands on a real-time changing ECU interface where you make the change and whatever you tell it to it's done. That's regardless of rpms BTW. The UTEC will make you not only back out of screens for a simple change to take effect but it will also make you let the rpms come back down towards idle. And, you also can't see how not having the MAF in the loop wouldn't make this product better (or at least the option to do this). Add those two functions to UTEC and it would be badasx.

I still say it get's a 3.5 out of 5 stars. It's a GOOD product/solution, but has it's limitations and can be better. If they put a little more work into it I think they can do it.
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Old 03-26-2005, 04:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmarcel
Come on man. You mean to tell me that having to back out of a screen for the values that you just changed isn't annoying? Have you ever had your hands on a real-time changing ECU interface where you make the change and whatever you tell it to it's done. That's regardless of rpms BTW. The UTEC will make you not only back out of screens for a simple change to take effect but it will also make you let the rpms come back down towards idle. And, you also can't see how not having the MAF in the loop wouldn't make this product better (or at least the option to do this). Add those two functions to UTEC and it would be badasx.

I still say it get's a 3.5 out of 5 stars. It's a GOOD product/solution, but has it's limitations and can be better. If they put a little more work into it I think they can do it.
yes. i am running a UTEC on top of a streetTUNER.
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Old 03-26-2005, 05:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
i would say its a great product...

...and that thought is further strengthened after using other solutions...

Not thrilled with the street tuner?
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Old 03-26-2005, 05:17 PM   #20
happasaiyan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrex03
Not thrilled with the street tuner?
certain parts, yes, certain parts, no.

there is a steep learning curve (hard to be one of the first to use it, as there isnt any documentation as to what maps are used when, etc..).

the realtime part is honestly more of an annoyance with some things, and is ok with others. i do all of my tuning solo, so i dont need realtime tuning too much. this has helped when tuning injectors at idle though...but is annoying when you dont want the change to happen right now.

other things are very nice though (avcs modifications, rev limiter increase, more flexible boost controls, etc). i think i may just run hybrid mode all the time (utec for fueling, ST for avcs, timing and boost). its a B trying to get my injectors even NEAR the fuel curve listed in the fuel map. for that reason alone, ill probably just leave my fueling to the utec.
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