Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday May 30, 2016
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo)

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-05-2005, 02:49 PM   #1
DjRez4
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18155
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Vehicle:
1985 4runner
AWD Pirates, Unite!

Default Crucial CU-seal gaskets shrink.

The new turbo went in this weekend and it's surrounded by Crucial CU-seal gaskets. They shrink, and by shrink, I mean that even with proper torquing, I lost three out of five DP-turbo nuts (the other two were very loose) and all three passenger-side manifold-head nuts within 100 miles.

I'm chalking this up to the extreme compressibility of the gasket design. So, lesson learned? Check, recheck and then double recheck your nuts when installing Crucial gaskets. Don't make the mistake I did!
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
DjRez4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 04-05-2005, 02:57 PM   #2
speedyHAM
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 48377
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: "They eat fish soaked in lye"
Vehicle:
1996 Gutted, built
XP class Impreza L

Default

Yeah, same problem here. I even torque checked them a few days after installation. Then at the autocross this weekend a friend asked where The upper DP bolt was.
speedyHAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 05:11 PM   #3
WRC-Go
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 29917
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Appalachian Mountains VA
Vehicle:
2003 WRXWgn-WRB sold
EVO IX-MR, 98 Viper

Default

QX: How hard is it to get to those bolts to tighten them once the UP is installed?
I was planning on using the Crucial gaskets...
If it's not hard to get to, guess I could torque them every 20 miles
WRC-Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 05:20 PM   #4
DjRez4
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18155
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Vehicle:
1985 4runner
AWD Pirates, Unite!

Default

Lower uppipe bolts are easily accessible if you remove the pass-side manifold heat shield. Two of the upper uppipe bolts can be accessed, but thie third requires removal of the downpipe. Then you have to torque the downpipe again. Basically, it's not "easy" to heat cycle the gaskets and then retighten everything.
DjRez4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 06:10 PM   #5
InfamousDX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 25413
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: North NJ
Default

Hmm... I hope that's an isolated case but doesn't seem like it. I like my oem subaru gaskets.
InfamousDX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 07:21 PM   #6
tekfoc
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21392
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NEW YORK CITY
Vehicle:
2014 45 AMG MB
WHITE /MB C300 4MATIC

Default

had the same problem with the crucial racing gasket. I learned that you have to use copper gasket sealant with the gasket and you have to retorqe everything after a couple of heat cycles othrerwise you will have a problem !! either aleak or lost nuts and bolts. yes that 3rd nut by the downpipe is a big pain in the butt to get to you have to remove the downpipe to get to it
tekfoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 07:53 PM   #7
distorto
Top Scoob 024
 
Member#: 56364
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: International
Location: houston, texas
Vehicle:
RIP stompr :(
bagged vulvva

Default

guess i will stick with the factory gaskets...
distorto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 08:03 PM   #8
rich22
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34662
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: CT
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
Silver

Default

thank god i didnt go with crucial. Just went with good ole OEM
rich22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 09:32 PM   #9
Valhakar
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39514
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Avondale, AZ
Vehicle:
2003 WRX 2.5L Hybrid
Mostly Blue

Default

Crucial and OEM suffer from the same issue. You are supposed to check and retorque after 100 miles. My rule of thumb is 50/150/300. Since I have started that, I have never had ANY gaskets leak or lost any downpipe bolts.

When I installed my first uppipe, I replaced the gaskets with Subaru OEM. A week later I had a horrible uppipe leak and lost 2 nuts off the back of the turbo. I tightened it all up and used loc-tite. A month later the downpipe started leaking through the OEM gasket. I pulled it all apart and replaced the gaskets again but retorqed at 50/150/300 and never had a leak. I am now using the Crucial CU-Seal gaskets without a leak for 8K miles.

Simply put, your issue is operator error, but a simple mistake to make.
Valhakar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 09:54 PM   #10
FuelCutOff
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 40499
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: SE MI
Vehicle:
2004 FXT

Default

The instruction clearly state to retorque them after a few heat cycles and it's also recommend by Mister X that you use a cooper gasket sealant. There's a reason why several top tuners use cooper gaskets. It's because they do the job right and do not leak when properly installed. These are no different and the instructions should be followed for these things to work.

I've had no issues with mine at all and they work great.
FuelCutOff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 10:06 PM   #11
WRC-Go
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 29917
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Appalachian Mountains VA
Vehicle:
2003 WRXWgn-WRB sold
EVO IX-MR, 98 Viper

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich22
thank god i didnt go with crucial. Just went with good ole OEM

Starting to agree with this: here's the deal, when the cars come from the factory, they don't have anyone to re-torque nuts on the exhaust system. OEM is torqued at the factory and holds. I don't have time to remove the DP to re-torque the UP nuts at 50/100/150 to keep the thing together...

This is bad news, as I was about ready to order Crucial gasket sets for my state 2... Guess I'll go OEM>
WRC-Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 10:39 PM   #12
Scoobs2002
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 64615
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
GT42R Power!

Default

I had NO issues with my Crucial gasket/up pipe sealing( before I went stage 5)...I just followed steps from here and the Install instructions and I was good to go...probally not fair to peg blame on the manufacturer....heat cycling can do this to any gasket....oem or not.



Scoobs
Scoobs2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 11:20 PM   #13
DjRez4
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18155
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Vehicle:
1985 4runner
AWD Pirates, Unite!

Default

I'll repeat my reply to Rami and Valhakar over here:

a) Mine did not come with instructions.
b) They have been retorqued twice now. But by the time I got under the car to retorque them at 100 miles, I had already lost my nuts (Gosh that would suck). This is not a user error issue. Even without the instructions, I did what I was supposed to do. I just wasn't given the opportunity by the gaskets. OEM have never given me this problem.

Valhakar...I know you and X are tight. Perhaps you should appreciate that there are other people on this board that know what they're doing. I expected to retorque after installing these. I also expected the nuts to be there for retorquing when I pulled the heatshields off at 100 miles.
DjRez4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 12:52 AM   #14
JSiwek
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14909
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Bay Area, CA
Default

I think the long-term reliability and the emossed copper gaskets' ability to conform to irregularities in flanges and ensure a complete seal is worth having to retorque. The compressed asbestos/fiberglass/whatever OEM ones can't compare. I retorqued my full set of CR gaskets once and haven't had any problems. I also cleaned off my studs with brake cleaner after having used penetrating lube stuff to get them off the stock turbo.... that stuff is slippery. I've seen plenty of nuts/bolts back out with the help of residue due to that stuff still being on the stud.

Also, locktite never hurts. These parts get more than hot enough that even the "permanent" locktite is very easily broken w/ a socket as though it were never there. However, it is still very functional at keeping nuts from vibrating off.

Anyway, there's a reason professional teams use copper gaskets and it is clear for all of the people that were completely unable to seal their system (usually due to a slightly warped flange or something along those lines) until they used the Crucial ones. That embossing is great. But yes, due to it the bolts/nuts must also be retorqued... small price to pay, IMHO.
JSiwek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 01:17 AM   #15
02R6
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22157
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Westerville, OH
Vehicle:
'02 WRX '04 350Z
Cause We Are The Aquateen

Default

I use OEM gaskets, no sealant, no locktite, never re-torque anything, and have yet to spring a leak or suffer any ill effects (touch wood). Call me lazy, I guess.
02R6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 09:23 AM   #16
WRC-Go
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 29917
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Appalachian Mountains VA
Vehicle:
2003 WRXWgn-WRB sold
EVO IX-MR, 98 Viper

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02R6
I use OEM gaskets, no sealant, no locktite, never re-torque anything, and have yet to spring a leak or suffer any ill effects (touch wood). Call me lazy, I guess.
Not lazy, just smart. I'm glad this thread got posted because it probably saved me a lot of grief. Not knocking Crucial - their design is undoubtedly great for people who have a poorly fitting UP, mis-aligned flange, whatever, but I plan on buying a decent pipe and using factory gaskets now...

I just don't have time to f' around with re-torquing, especially when it means removing parts to get to the bolts. As said earlier, the factory doesn't seem to find re-torquing necessary, now, do they?
WRC-Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 09:38 AM   #17
MisterX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17275
Join Date: Apr 2002
Vehicle:
2002 wrx wagon
wr blue

Default

This is a rather exceptional circumstance. I've spoken with Dale Teague in regard to his use of the gaskets, and he prefers not to use sealant to avoid anything running through the turbo. We're aware the gaskets require a retorque soon after install, and recommend it on the web site, but have never encountered a situation as described here. I'm going to do a little more research and post on this thread again. Unfortunately, I'm traveling and cannot respond as rapidly as usual.
MisterX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 09:41 AM   #18
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
I also cleaned off my studs with brake cleaner after having used penetrating lube stuff to get them off the stock turbo.... that stuff is slippery. I've seen plenty of nuts/bolts back out with the help of residue due to that stuff still being on the stud.

Also, locktite never hurts. These parts get more than hot enough that even the "permanent" locktite is very easily broken w/ a socket as though it were never there. However, it is still very functional at keeping nuts from vibrating off.
gee, here i go using anti-sieze on every fastener i encounter--never any locktite--and i've never lost one!

oem all the way, man.

keep in mind also that gaskets have heat transfer characteristics that may or may not affect the longevity and/or performance of parts... ie, you DO NOT want excellent heat transfer from collector to head, or from exhaust housing to downpipe. most folks assume that a non-leaking gasket is the only criteria, but that's missing some other, admittedly finer points.

hth
ken
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 11:54 AM   #19
MINO
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12841
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: jchattdesign.com
Default

I have the same issue with the CR gaskets and the OE nuts coming loose (lower up-pipe and down pipe).
I assumed, after the first incident, that the threads may have stretched over time causing a looser fit. I have also come to find the gaskets are the culpret.

Since then, I have been using locking nuts similar to the ones that APS (toothed not nylon) supplies with their up-pipes. You can get boxes of 4 at your local PepBoys or similar. They still loosen slightly after a fresh install, but I haven't lost a locking nut yet.
MINO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 12:10 PM   #20
DjRez4
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18155
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Vehicle:
1985 4runner
AWD Pirates, Unite!

Default

Can you show me a "toothed" locking nut?
DjRez4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 12:32 PM   #21
MINO
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12841
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: jchattdesign.com
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjRez4
Can you show me a "toothed" locking nut?
The correct term is Serrated Hex (I couldn't remember the term).
Looks Like this:
MINO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 01:04 PM   #22
DjRez4
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18155
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Vehicle:
1985 4runner
AWD Pirates, Unite!

Default

Oh, OK. I'm using some of those. I was also thinking about using split lock washers.
DjRez4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 01:30 PM   #23
hotrod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14141
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: [email protected] @ 5800 ft on 13T
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX

Default

A couple of observations --- There are a few things that come to mind here. First I strongly advocate the use of Permatex Anti-sieze on all your exhaust bolts. It will save you mucho grief some time in the future when you want to take things apart. It also is just sticky enough that once cooked by exhaust heat the nut is not completely free to spin off the fastener if for some reason pressure is released. When first put in place it has the consistancy of heavy grease, and after being heated a few times takes on the consistancy of something like day old toothpaste. Not hard but stiff enough to keep things from moving about.

On possibility is that there was some sort of a bind in the exhaust system and after hitting a strong bump or something that bind resolved itself. That could suddenly removed all clamping force on the gaskets and nuts allowing the nuts to back off due to road vibration.

When I bolt up gaskets I always run things up finger tight on all flanges and then grab and shake things a bit to let everything settle in. If you have piece of sand grit wedged someplace this is when you want to get it to drop out and let things bolt up properly.

Second on gaskets ( especially on exhaust gaskets) I always bring them up to final torque in stages with some rest time in between. I bring them up to final torque and then do some other tasks, maybe grab a bite to eat and come back in 15 - 20 minutes and verify that all is still tight. Especially if your putting heat shields back on so you won't be able to get to things easily.

Its the nature of copper embossed gaskets to "yield and conform" after they have been heat cycled. The high pressure points give a bit at high heat and yield slightly, this moves the pressure around until you have a perfect match between the shape of the gasket and the surface it is sealing, and once retorqued properly they should have very uniform gasket clamping pressure inspite of small surface irregularities. This it why they seal gasket flanges no other gasket will seal.

I have never had an embossed metal exhaust gasket fail or leak ( they used to be common in older cars). I have on occasion forgotten to tighten all the bolts and had things shift and come loose later. That is where I learned to give things a rest and go back and double check the torque on each and every bolt some time later.

They also make a "deformed" lock nut, that is great for this sort of thing. It is squeezed slightly so that it is not perfectly round, and that built in friction will keep it from backing off due to vibration.

I've used them in the past and they work great. I'll look around to see if I can find a source for them.

Larry
hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 01:52 PM   #24
MINO
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12841
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: jchattdesign.com
Default

Thanks for the input Larry.

For those looking for parts, you can find everything you need at www.mcmaster.com
Every enthusiast/mechanic should bookmark this site.

Specifically for the deformed nut: Link
MINO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 02:48 PM   #25
MisterX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17275
Join Date: Apr 2002
Vehicle:
2002 wrx wagon
wr blue

Default

I'm not generally availble to post on any fourm right now as I'm traveling and my access to the internet is very seriously restricted. Nevertheless, thanks Larry for posting in regard to the copper gaskets. Your analysis is entirely correct. Crucial's copper gaskets will produce a superior, unyeilding seal when properly installed. As larry says, copper moves and sets itself to seal, unlike other materials. It takes one or two heat cycles for a copper gasket to set, but once it's set and the bolts retorqued, the sealing power is unequaled.

It's probably uncommon for a manufacturer to reply in this manner, but it's not really reasonable to set out on a course to modify your car for the purpose of improving it without expecting to do a little work. Changing the stock exhaust components yields an improvement in performance but requires some effort. The same goes for the use of Crucial gaskets. We've always recommended a retorque after just a few heat cycles. On one board, a moderator posted he had never heard or retorquing connections. If, after installing Cu-Seal gaskets, you allow the gasket to conform to the flange, you'll be rewarded with a leak free seal. Without exaggeration, these gaskets have sealed problem uppipes - chronic leakers. But if you're willing to replace an uppipe, you should be willing to do the small bit of extra work required to ensure the pipe will never leak by putting wrench to bolt and checking torque.

Otherwise, leave the stock parts in place.
MisterX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
crucial cu-seal copper top uppipe gasket anthonyrb98 Engine/Power/Exhaust 25 09-08-2007 06:55 PM
Crucial Cu-Seal Embossed Copper Gaskets (uppipe set) Erexxx Engine/Power/Exhaust 1 08-19-2007 01:56 PM
New CRUCIAL exhaust parts, Cu-Seal gaskets, and more! Crucial Racing Engine/Power/Exhaust 114 08-14-2006 12:05 PM
Crucial Cu-seal Full gasket set NIB CasopoliS Engine/Power/Exhaust 4 08-07-2006 12:17 PM
Crucial Cu-Seal Copper Downpipe Gasket DubSlick Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 15 11-16-2005 03:08 AM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2016 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2016, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.