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Old 04-06-2005, 04:40 PM   #1
trhoppe
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OMGHi2U STX, boost maps, dyno tuning, etc

Had some interesting finds while dyno tuning Biggly's car last night for this season. We finally maxed the power out with an adding an inlet pipe and more tuning

a) All boost maps on all the WRXs are the same. Even though people said they were not, they are. We tried about 25 different maps searching for one that would give an advantage with a better boost curve, but nada. All the wastegate duty cycle maps and etc that we found are the same
b) You can easily tell what kind of boost control these maps have by throwing deltadash on the car. You can log each of these and compare to a logged stock ECU. Easy as pie. The boost migh be different, but the wastegate duty cycle and boost maps should be the same. Remember that changes to the boost levels will happen with intakes, inlet pipes, exchausts etc. Its the stock ECU boost control that has to be kept the same, and what the ECU is doing to control boost can be thoroughly logged.
c) Its really easy to tell with a boost gauge if a car with exhaust/intake has any mods to the boost map. The boost spike cannot be tuned out w/o making changes to the wastegate solenoid maps. The way the stock ECU controls it, it cannot react fast enough and spikes. Any changes and the spike is teh gone. An ECU w/o a spike would be definetly a red flag for a more thorough investigation.
d) Doug from TopSpeed rocks as does the whole shop. He nailed this tune on 1 try. Yes, thats right, 1 tuning run from a dead stock ECU. We put the pipe in and reset the ecu back to stock. 219whp/220wtq. 2 minutes later (thats how long 02s take to write the flash), BAM! 242/254. Impressive to say the least.
e) You guys will have to play catch up (at least power wise)

Here is the map of the STX tune. This is when the car got to TopSpeed and then when it left. (It was running a scott siegel "version 2" map when it came in, not the same one as when it was at nationals, that one was ~225whp) No, its not a typo, 242whp/254wtq. Thats SAE corrected. It was another 5 or 6 more "raw", but Doug wanted to use the SAE corrected #s.



Here is a map of the SM tune over the top of the STX tune. This is when Doug said "Screw you and your boost limits, I want to play". Notice that the spike completely goes away with proper wastegate control and check out the top end. 30wtq at 3500rpms and 30whp at 6500rpms. I think this is the most Hp/Tq out of a stock turbo so far ev4r. 253whp/271wtq



The runs were made on a DynoJet dyno. A stock STi puts out right around 250whp/250wtq on this same dyno. Yes we did erase that map and put the STX one back on

-Tom
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Last edited by trhoppe; 04-06-2005 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 04-06-2005, 05:06 PM   #2
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This totally rocks. Biggly showed me the maps earlier in the day but didn't tell me all the other interesting details. Hopefully the class will remain self-policing with this kind of public info available.

Somthing I thought interesting: Even with unlimited boost (the bottom plot) the car doesn't make a _whole_ lot more power. It's obviously better than in legal STX tune but the efficiency limitation of the stock turbo keeps you from being able to make that mythical 60 PSI monster that NA people always freak about when discussions turn to turbo boost map modifications.

--Kevin H.
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Old 04-06-2005, 05:47 PM   #3
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So the only difference between the old STX legal map and now is the inlet pipe and the tuning for the inlet pipe? i.e. the map was maxed out previously?
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Old 04-06-2005, 07:13 PM   #4
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what octane was this run on? just when i thought i was done spending money on my car....
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Old 04-06-2005, 08:07 PM   #5
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Now I'm curious what my non-managed '02 does on this dyno. I did 187/189 on a DynaPak dyno.

I have no inlet hose, no aftermarket header, do have a muffler.

I'll be there friday morning--so we'll find out...

Scott
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Old 04-06-2005, 08:17 PM   #6
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All very true observations. But you can very well get rid of the spike or even make it spike more by shortening or lengthening the Waistegate arm. I have had excellent results with a custom STX tune and using the waistegate arm to mechanically control Waistegate duty cycle. And there is nothing in the rules that state we can't recalibrate the mechanics of the waistegate, as long as it stays stock.

Also you have to be careful when using DD to log WDC because there are 2 other maps that allow for WDC correction that will either add or subtract from Primary WDC to achieve target boost. These Turbo Dynamics maps could add or subtract as much as 10% to the WDC to achieve targets. So to compare a stock WDC map versus a DD WDC log, one must leave a fudge factor of 10% on the top and bottom end. To make things alittle more complicated, the stock ECU will also add or subtract WDC from the sum to compensate for intake temp, atmospheric pressure, and humidity. It gets very complicated, and in my oppinion, the only way to regulate a FI car in the SCCA would be to mandate restrictor plates.

Last edited by buzz313th; 04-06-2005 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 04-06-2005, 08:19 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzz313th
All very true observations. But you can very well get rid of the spike or even make it spike more by shortening or lengthening the Waistegate arm. I have had excellent results with a custom STX tune and using the waistegate arm to mechanically control Waistegate duty cycle. And there is nothing in the rules that state we can't recalibrate the mechanics of the waistegate, as long as it stays stock.
IBifitdoesntsayyoucanyoucant
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Old 04-06-2005, 08:25 PM   #8
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So to max out the power & stay legal for STX, you use:
-header/uppipe
-turboback w/ high flow cat
-cold air intake
-turbo inlet pipe
-lighter pulleys
and then an ecutek custom map.
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Old 04-06-2005, 08:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno
IBifitdoesntsayyoucanyoucant
Prove to me at an event, that I have modified the eye hole bracket on my waistegate from stock.

There are something like 30-40 threads on the arm, and I have seen stock off the shelf cars with each bracket 3-8 turns different.
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Old 04-06-2005, 11:12 PM   #10
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You can't do that. Even if it's really hard to figure out that it's been changed you can't do that. Time to look in the shop manual for a spec -- seems like that would be called out somewhere as it's fairly critical.

--Kevin H.
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Old 04-06-2005, 11:17 PM   #11
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I have looked Kevin, and it's not anywhere. Trust me I have looked. And it's not as critical as you think since the ecu has the power to compensate for a strong or weak solenoid spring.
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Old 04-06-2005, 11:34 PM   #12
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Buzz is right; I experimented with this on my red car and it makes only a slight difference on the initial spool of the turbo itself. It's rather insignificant in the scheme of things as with too much monkeying on it, and the car will give a huge spike and pull timing and lose power several hundred RPM after coming on. I've done the DD runs to see it.

I am not sure if it's in the manual or not; honestly that would be the only way to tell if it's genuinely protestable material or not. Really, if you have to use this to drive the car then you're focusing on the wrong thing.
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:07 AM   #13
buzz313th
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBiggly
Buzz is right; I experimented with this on my red car and it makes only a slight difference on the initial spool of the turbo itself. It's rather insignificant in the scheme of things as with too much monkeying on it, and the car will give a huge spike and pull timing and lose power several hundred RPM after coming on. I've done the DD runs to see it.

I am not sure if it's in the manual or not; honestly that would be the only way to tell if it's genuinely protestable material or not. Really, if you have to use this to drive the car then you're focusing on the wrong thing.


My point exactly.

In my opinion all the mods in the world won't do a thing to make up for a defficiency with the "Nut behind the wheel".

The funny thing about this whole turbo dilema is this. In my experience on the autocross course, we (WRX's) very rarely get into 3rd gear. With that in mind, how many of you have noticed that it is almost impossible to achieve higher than stock boost levels in second gear anyway. The engine is accelerating faster than the stock turbo can accelerate given a ceartain engine calibration. Thus the turbo can't keep up. So you can crank the boost up as high as you want.... you probably won't get there unless you hit third.

The real issue that I think WRX STX drivers should try to achieve, is a good fast spool. And most of that comes through timing and fuel.

Lets put it this way. Solo2 is a competitive motorsport and in every single motorsport, teams are always gonna try and push the limit, thats the whole idea of being extremely competative. People will try and bend the rules just enough so that they may get a 1/1000 of a second advantage and take the risk that it may be detected. This is the premise behind any sport. And as much as some of you may dislike it, it is the mark of a champion.

To win at Topeka requires one to achieve 101% of their driving ability, but also requires 101% of preperation. (Mind, Life, Car, Resources) And without it you will have to unballance the scales a bit to make up for a lack of preperation or talent.

Do any of you honestly think that the majority of the really fast drivers aren't hiding a slight advantage? Ofcourse they are. And for one I honestly don't blame em. To be quite honest, it makes the game more interesting.

Again.... my humble opinions..
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Old 04-07-2005, 07:30 AM   #14
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Sorry, all I see is that you are a prime example of why the NA STX drivers seem to think "all WRX drivers are cheaters". You know that what you're doing is cheating. And yet you do it anyway. Say what you will about Tom's "brake shield modification" last year, but I truly believe that Tom felt it was within the spirit of the rules. As did the Protest Committee. Seems to me that what you're doing is just plain cheating...

Again, if it's not permitted in the rules, and it's not authorized in the Factory Service Manual as a valid repair/modification, you can't do it. The way that BOTH of those documents work is that "if it doesn't say you can, then you can't." Not the other way around...
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Old 04-07-2005, 07:34 AM   #15
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P.S. I almost wish there wasn't any contingency money. I'd race open class in Topeka just so I could try to beat you, illegal mods and all.
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Old 04-07-2005, 09:54 AM   #16
buzz313th
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcroy66
Sorry, all I see is that you are a prime example of why the NA STX drivers seem to think "all WRX drivers are cheaters". You know that what you're doing is cheating. And yet you do it anyway. Say what you will about Tom's "brake shield modification" last year, but I truly believe that Tom felt it was within the spirit of the rules. As did the Protest Committee. Seems to me that what you're doing is just plain cheating...

Again, if it's not permitted in the rules, and it's not authorized in the Factory Service Manual as a valid repair/modification, you can't do it. The way that BOTH of those documents work is that "if it doesn't say you can, then you can't." Not the other way around...

Never once did I say that I was using it at events. So don't get up here in this board and start acusing me of cheating. My posts represent a proactive discussion about the topic. I was stating my opinion, and making light of things that I have found. So just settle down Turbo ...

Plus do you honestly think that I would tell all you this if I was using it????? Sure wouldn't be smart of me. But then who said I was smart.... Maybe I have a second stage hidden in my oil Pan...

Secondly, You are taking what I am saying and only applying it to the WRX. This doesn't only apply to FI cars, it applies to all cars in SCCA.
Just think about it alittle dude. You can go blue in the face walking up and down impound, to find someone to protest, but the truth of the matter is this. That If Someone wanted to hide some speed, and they were smart about it, then they are also probably brite enough to keep it somewhat undetectable. What are you gonna tear my engine apart to prove that I have balanced components...... Sure go right ahead pal.... You are still missing the point.

Take my comments as nothing more than helping to make people more aware of either, "Cheaters or a new outlook on being competitive at the top".

Prime example is the Ferrari F1 team. They were always at the top, and many have acused them as cheaters over the past years, but either way they were the best team in F1 and thats because they ALWAYS pushed the limit in all respects.

Toms "Brake Shield" Issue, was absolutely brilliant, and is what I was saying as being a mark of a champion.

Damn, I gotta goto work......

Last edited by buzz313th; 04-07-2005 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 04-07-2005, 11:38 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno
So the only difference between the old STX legal map and now is the inlet pipe and the tuning for the inlet pipe? i.e. the map was maxed out previously?
After a rereading that what seems happened but I am not sure. The two tunes used similar afrs from 4.5 to 6.5. I wonder if you could make more low end torque by leaning out some more in the NA region of the curve. Of course you probably won't be using 2-3k that much on course...

Noice
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Old 04-07-2005, 11:46 AM   #18
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ibwhytomdontposttoday?


he must be sitting back watching the pot stir
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Old 04-07-2005, 11:47 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abaxter34
what octane was this run on? just when i thought i was done spending money on my car....
What he asked. Also, did you use toluene or any other gas additives?
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Old 04-07-2005, 11:50 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzz313th
Just think about it alittle dude.
(For reasons that will become apparent soon enough)

--kC
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Old 04-07-2005, 11:52 AM   #21
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Frankly, after almost two years of this "debate" I really wish for the sake of removing all ambiguity in STX, SCCA would just mandate that ECU mods of any kind are NOT ALLOWED. period. Forced induction or naturally aspirated.

242 ??? 242 ??? Hmmmm that's basically 20 hp & 30 +/- Lb-ft torque from a turbine inlet duct...or there's been an astronomical epiphany in advanced engine tuning from certain shops......

BriDrive
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:05 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC
(For reasons that will become apparent soon enough)

--kC
I know, I thought that was funny too but kept my trap shut.

BriDrive,
Different tuner, inlet duct, and slightly different intake setup. Plus, it didn't go up 20hp...it went up 11hp and 15tq. Perhaps you're not looking at the chart correctly? Over the power band that is the peak increase; the increase throughout the entire power is less than that depending upon where you're looking.
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:11 PM   #23
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This was run on 93 octane.

Javid - there is more then just A/F changes that were made though. The A/F's WERE dead on from 4500 on before the car came in

Quote:
The real issue that I think WRX STX drivers should try to achieve, is a good fast spool. And most of that comes through timing and fuel.
*ahemcough*200ftlbs at 2800RPMs *coughcough*

-Tom
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:12 PM   #24
trhoppe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriDrive
Frankly, after almost two years of this "debate" I really wish for the sake of removing all ambiguity in STX, SCCA would just mandate that ECU mods of any kind are NOT ALLOWED. period. Forced induction or naturally aspirated.

242 ??? 242 ??? Hmmmm that's basically 20 hp & 30 +/- Lb-ft torque from a turbine inlet duct...or there's been an astronomical epiphany in advanced engine tuning from certain shops......

BriDrive
It only costs $100 to find out yourself that the boost is at the stock levels

-Tom
4 for 4
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:13 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
reset the ecu back to stock. 219whp/220wtq. 2 minutes later (thats how long 02s take to write the flash), BAM! 242/254.
I think BriDrive's point was that difference from a stock ECU = 23 whp/34 wtq.
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