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Old 10-24-2002, 07:07 PM   #1
radwrx
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Prospect Hts. IL
Unhappy UTEC/Stage4 + vf34 = Knock

I am getting my timing pulled under WOT acceleration running the stage 4 map. The thing that is odd is the UTEC does not log any knock count.
In general my car runs poorly if I get into boost with the stage 4 map. Is anyone else having a problem running the stage4tmic map with vf34 and the utec? Here are my mods:

Samco hoses
VF34
STI injectors
Stock Topmount
Perrin uppipe
TXS stealth back
UTEC - stage4tmic map

I don't have the TXS TMIC but called turboxs and they thought running this map would not cause an issue.
I am thinking that with the combination of my perrin (stock diameter) uppipe and vf34 the spool up may be significantly quicker than the VF30 Turbo XS test car, hence higher boost earlier and detonation due to an advance curve that is expecting lower boost at a given timing load point


Here are a couple of snippets from my log
2nd gear roll on:
2247 001 -10.6 00 ECU. 14.2 00000
2237 003 -9.8 00 ECU. 14.7 00000
2249 006 -8.1 00 ECU. 13.9 00000
2262 008 -6.1 00 ECU. 13.8 00000
2302 013 -4.5 00 ECU. 14.5 00000
2327 015 -3.0 00 ECU. 14.3 00000
2359 017 -2.0 00 ECU. 14.9 00000
2389 018 -1.6 00 ECU. 14.9 00000
2433 019 -1.2 00 ECU. 14.7 00000
2495 019 -0.8 00 ECU. 14.5 00000
2521 020 -0.2 00 ECU. 14.4 00000
2581 020 +0.4 00 ECU. 14.3 00000
2622 020 +0.8 00 ECU. 14.3 00000
2660 019 +1.3 00 ECU. 14.3 00000
2716 018 +1.7 00 ECU. 14.2 00000
2796 020 +1.9 00 ECU. 14.5 00000
2820 027 +2.5 00 ECU. 14.6 00000
2916 052 +3.5 00 ECU. 14.1 00000
2970 084 +5.1 30 ECU. rich 00000
3060 092 +6.2 40 ECU. rich 00000
3095 093 +7.2 40 ECU. rich 00000
3217 093 +8.6 50 ECU. rich 00000
3300 092 +10.4 60 ECU. rich 00000
3415 092 +11.9 70 +18.0 rich 00000
3497 092 +13.5 70 +18.0 rich 00000
3627 092 +14.5 80 +15.0 rich 00000
3699 092 +14.5 80 +15.0 rich 00000
3770 092 +14.7 80 +15.0 rich 00000
3862 092 +14.9 80 +15.0 rich 00000
4006 092 +15.1 80 +17.0 rich 00000
4040 092 +15.1 80 +3.0 rich 00000
4095 091 +15.3 80 -1.0 rich 00000
4040 000 +11.7 00 ECU. rich 00000
3822 000 +0.8 00 ECU. lean 00000
3549 000 -6.9 00 ECU. 24.0 00000
3255 000 -7.9 00 ECU. 23.7 00000
2976 000 -7.9 00 ECU. 23.7 00000
2732 000 -8.1 00 ECU. 24.0 00000
2461 000 -8.9 00 ECU. 23.7 00000
2208 000 -9.1 00 ECU. 23.7 00000
Knock count remains zero but timing gets pulled.


Third gear roll on
2177 010 -8.1 00 ECU. 15.6 00000
2099 010 -4.5 00 ECU. 12.9 00000
2105 010 -3.0 00 ECU. 13.8 00000
2187 011 -2.8 00 ECU. 13.8 00000
2261 023 -1.6 00 ECU. 13.7 00000
2369 049 +0.0 00 ECU. rich 00000
2482 083 +1.1 10 ECU. 15.0 00000
2600 094 +1.7 10 ECU. rich 00000
2707 093 +2.3 20 ECU. rich 00000
2829 092 +2.9 20 ECU. rich 00000
2955 093 +3.7 20 ECU. rich 00000
3086 093 +4.7 30 ECU. rich 00000
3233 093 +5.7 30 ECU. rich 00000
3373 093 +6.6 40 ECU. rich 00000
3457 092 +8.4 50 ECU. rich 00000
3650 092 +11.5 60 ECU. rich 00000
3591 016 +13.3 00 ECU. rich 00000
3699 000 +5.3 00 ECU. 12.2 00000
3425 000 -5.3 00 ECU. lean 00000
3147 000 -7.9 00 ECU. 23.7 00000
2878 000 -8.3 00 ECU. 23.7 00000
2606 000 -8.5 00 ECU. 23.4 00000
2369 000 -8.3 00 ECU. 24.0 00000

Here the log shows ECU control but I felt hesitation and the CEL flashed ala UTEC.
I think in this case the logging resolution of the UTEC is not quick enough to log the event.


Anoyone else having issues with a similar setup?
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Old 10-24-2002, 07:48 PM   #2
paul99se
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Default Well...

I have the following setup:

VF34
STI injectors & Walbro pump
TXS TMIC
TXS Uppipe
TXS Turboback
AVO Inlet Pipe
UTEC - stage4tmic map --> Modified to fix my knock...

So, looking at your logs, I am puzzled at why you are getting knock @ 15psi with 17deg of advance... and damn... your UTEC is pulling a scary load of timing.

Are you sure you've got a tank of good gas? In IL, altitude is not an issue. ;-)

My boost map looks a bit different than the base Stage4TMI map (I have to drop BCS duty to ~35% starting at 3500rpm to maintain the right boost level.) However, I am seeing 18psi @ 3400rpm w/ 16 deg. of advance with no knock events anymore. I did have to move my timing dip 250-500 rpm down to eliminate the knock... this would be consistent with the "faster spool up" theory.

PM me and we can discuss.

-Paul
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Old 10-25-2002, 12:14 AM   #3
radwrx
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Default Thanks for the response

Quote:
So, looking at your logs, I am puzzled at why you are getting knock @ 15psi with 17deg of advance...
You and me both. If I had three people in the car and was going uphill, maybe, but it was just me on a flat stretch of road.

Quote:
and damn... your UTEC is pulling a scary load of timing.
Thank goodness for that

Anyway, maybe it is a crappy load of gas. I am almost out so I'll try a different station tomorrow and capture a couple of more logs.

-Mike
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Old 10-25-2002, 12:35 AM   #4
Onederer
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mine is doing the ame thing...weird to be running so rich, but still have some knock

i planned on having someone who knows whatt they are doing, do the tune, then watch them and learn a little more...hopefully.

but i do plan on doing some tinkering
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Old 10-25-2002, 01:09 AM   #5
paul99se
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Default

Onedeer: How much peak boost are you seeing?

It can't hurt to pull a little timing to see if that gets rid of the knock.
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Old 10-25-2002, 01:39 AM   #6
Onederer
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i was running 17.5 , pulling the timing don't sound to shabby, and as for fuel, things read that i'm running quite rich.

I'll tinker more in the a.m.


thanks
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Old 10-25-2002, 10:30 AM   #7
Imprezd
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If you are getting flashing ce lights, you are getting detonation...

If you are getting detonation, retard your timing and add fuel until you don't get it anymore. Should be very simple since your data logs shows exactly where you are pulling Ignition timing.

That's what makes the UTEC so cool, you can make these revisions to make your car run better and safer.

Imprezd~
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Old 10-25-2002, 10:49 AM   #8
nmyeti
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Onederer
i was running 17.5 , pulling the timing don't sound to shabby, and as for fuel, things read that i'm running quite rich.

I'll tinker more in the a.m.


thanks
Carlos,
As I stated in the PM it's because you have 91 octane and need to pull some timing out of your map.

Most likely the rest of you are either on 91 octane or are on winter fuels. You all need to pull a little timing out of the area of the map that is knocking, and then try adding just a touch of fuel back in.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com
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Old 10-28-2002, 12:04 PM   #9
radwrx
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Default New gas goodness

Fuel quality is critical. I guess I am stating the obvious.
Anyhow, I put new gas in and no more knock

before = 15 psi and 17 degrees advance = knock and pulled timing

now = 17 psi and 24 degrees advance = no knock and smooth as butter

I finally was able to run it to redline with my current setup. Huge difference in feel from stage 2. The stock turbo kicks in way sooner than the 34, but up top, there is huge difference in pull.

I wish I had run my stage 2 with the UTEC for a while before switching the turbo and injectors to get a good comparison of spool up characteristics between the two. Oh well, I'll leave that to someone else.

Anyway, overall this setup is as streetable as stock, for me at least. Just need to watch where I get gas and hope that the map won't need alteration for winter fuel.

The only outstanding question I have is if anyone else is getting pulled timing but 0 knock count in their logs? This may be a one off thing, because I only did a couple of runs and let off the gas as soon as I felt timing being pulled, and then stayed out of boost until I got different gas.

-Mike
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Old 10-28-2002, 12:46 PM   #10
nmyeti
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Default Re: New gas goodness

Quote:
Originally posted by radwrx


The only outstanding question I have is if anyone else is getting pulled timing but 0 knock count in their logs?
-Mike
Mike,
The knock correction is faster than the logger, and as such sometimes you'll just see the timing being pulled and not the actual knock count.

In the next version of the software we'll force the logger to report knock counts, so this should clear up as soon as we release version 2.3

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com
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Old 10-28-2002, 01:07 PM   #11
TurboXS
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Default Re: New gas goodness

Quote:
Originally posted by radwrx
Fuel quality is critical. I guess I am stating the obvious.
Anyhow, I put new gas in and no more knock

before = 15 psi and 17 degrees advance = knock and pulled timing

now = 17 psi and 24 degrees advance = no knock and smooth as butter

I finally was able to run it to redline with my current setup. Huge difference in feel from stage 2. The stock turbo kicks in way sooner than the 34, but up top, there is huge difference in pull.

I wish I had run my stage 2 with the UTEC for a while before switching the turbo and injectors to get a good comparison of spool up characteristics between the two. Oh well, I'll leave that to someone else.

Anyway, overall this setup is as streetable as stock, for me at least. Just need to watch where I get gas and hope that the map won't need alteration for winter fuel.

The only outstanding question I have is if anyone else is getting pulled timing but 0 knock count in their logs? This may be a one off thing, because I only did a couple of runs and let off the gas as soon as I felt timing being pulled, and then stayed out of boost until I got different gas.

-Mike
Mike,

I'm glad you got this sorted out and are pleased with the results. Below are a few points I wanted to highlight to the readers of this thread and then I'll answer your question:

1. Fuel quality is vitally important! See here for more info: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=264889. If your fuel is not as good as the fuel a map is made on, it will likely need to be modified.

2. You very well may need to modify your maps for winter fuel. We should know in a few weeks as we start to get Winter Gas in mid-November here in the DC area. However, if this is the case, you have seen how simple it is to change a map with the UTEC. Remember, we gave you 5 slots for storing maps and made the UTEC "User Tunable" for a reason!

Now the answer to your question regarding knock count:
You can get knock and have timing pulled with the knock count showing zero due to the fact that the knock detection/correction system is ~10x faster than the data logger combined with the way that the UTEC logger samples and displays data. If there is no knock present at the time of the log sample, knock count displays 0. The first software upgrade will modify this to ensure that any knock detected is displayed in the knock count column at the next opportunity (even if there is no longer any knock at that time). This could result in a knock count showing at a slightly different rpm point than it actually occurred, but not too far off - maybe 30-60rpm. However, given that we only have 250rpm resolution to tune with, it will lead you right to the area of the map where you got the det. At this point, when reviewing a log file you have to compare the actual timing that was run to the timing that was programmed to find the rpm/load point where det occured. While this is not difficult, making sure the knock count displays (even belatedly) should make it even easier.

Mark
TurboXS
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Old 04-07-2005, 07:33 PM   #12
eljuma711
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Default vf 34 map

i have vf34 some modifiied 720-820 injectors 255 fuel pump and utec but the thing is my car runs good until it hits 15 psi around there... then it starts to run like crap here is a map. if someone can help me out please write back thanx
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Old 04-07-2005, 07:44 PM   #13
hippy
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I didn't feel like reading through all the posts, but the only reason your timing would be retarded without seeing a knock(as far as I know) is because of the temp compensation settings in the parameters. Ie- If the coolant or air temp gets to x degrees, y timing and z fuel are added/removed. Maybe your settings there aren't correct. So I would make sure you have the right parameters loaded.

peace
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Old 04-07-2005, 07:47 PM   #14
eljuma711
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but ummm what should i have it set at it is set at
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Old 04-07-2005, 07:49 PM   #15
eljuma711
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this is my map

743 -9.0 1.3 0 00 00 15.2 +14.4 1.3 ECU. -2.0 ECU. 1.1
720 -8.6 1.7 1 00 00 15.2 +11.4 8.9 ECU. -2.0 ECU. 1.4
928 -7.1 1.8 1 00 00 16.1 +17.4 2.1 ECU. -2.0 ECU. 1.4
1259 -5.7 1.8 2 00 00 14.3 +20.4 2.8 ECU. -2.0 ECU. 1.5
1395 -4.5 1.9 3 00 00 15.3 +21.8 3.8 ECU. -2.0 ECU. 1.5
1374 -3.7 1.9 3 00 00 15.6 +22.6 3.5 ECU. -2.0 ECU. 1.5
1337 -3.9 1.9 4 00 00 14.9 +22.8 3.3 ECU. -2.0 ECU. 1.5
1354 -3.9 1.9 3 00 00 14.5 +22.7 4.1 ECU. -2.0 ECU. 1.5
1345 -3.9 2.0 8 00 00 13.9 +22.9 13.6 ECU. -2.0 ECU. 1.8
1427 -3.0 2.1 17 00 00 rich +29.6 4.5 ECU. -2.0 ECU. 1.7
1461 -2.2 2.1 18 00 00 15.2 +29.9 5.3 ECU. -2.0 ECU. 1.7
1461 -1.2 2.1 36 10 00 14.3 +29.6 19.3 +30.0 +0.0 ECU. 1.8
1634 -0.2 2.1 62 10 00 13.5 +31.8 33.2 +27.9 +0.0 160.00 1.9
1841 +0.2 2.3 77 10 00 12.2 +35.3 7.2 +25.8 -0.2 160.00 2.0
2103 +0.4 2.4 89 10 00 12.8 +28.5 7.3 +22.5 -0.4 160.00 2.0
2295 +0.6 2.5 90 10 00 14.2 +29.6 8.4 +20.0 -0.4 160.00 2.1
2525 +0.8 2.6 92 10 00 14.9 +29.8 9.2 +19.8 -0.2 160.00 2.1
2763 +1.0 2.7 95 10 00 15.6 +34.5 10.7 +18.0 +0.2 160.00 2.2
2926 +1.4 2.8 96 10 00 14.2 +33.7 12.4 +18.0 +0.5 160.00 2.3
3229 +1.9 3.0 98 10 00 13.3 +33.7 14.0 +18.0 +0.6 160.00 2.4
3512 +2.3 3.0 98 20 00 rich +24.6 17.2 +17.0 +0.6 160.00 2.6
3827 +3.1 3.1 98 20 00 rich +21.4 22.0 +17.6 +0.6 160.00 2.6
4166 +3.9 3.2 98 30 00 rich +20.6 27.0 +19.7 -0.2 160.00 2.8
4535 +5.3 3.5 98 40 00 rich +18.2 33.0 +21.3 +0.2 160.00 3.0
4930 +7.0 3.8 97 50 00 rich +14.3 41.5 +21.9 +0.0 160.00 3.2
5350 +8.8 4.0 95 60 00 rich +16.5 47.7 +22.0 -0.8 160.00 3.3
5858 +10.2 4.1 91 60 00 rich +28.2 51.9 +22.2 -0.6 160.00 3.4
6289 +11.6 4.1 89 70 00 rich +32.2 54.7 +22.0 -0.7 160.00 3.4
6600 +11.8 4.2 85 60 00 rich +33.0 58.5 +23.0 -0.3 160.00 3.4
7017 +11.6 4.2 81 60 00 rich +34.1 55.7 +23.0 -0.3 160.00 3.4
6761 +9.4 3.2 0 00 00 12.1 +8.1 3
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Old 04-07-2005, 07:54 PM   #16
hippy
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That's a log, not a map and it looks fine. The default temp compensation is something like air temp=100c coolant temp=100c, timing retard =0, fuel added=0? I really forget... I'd put it at 100, 100, 1, 0. If the timing retard looks like -10, you have found your problem.

peace
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Old 04-08-2005, 08:26 PM   #17
eljuma711
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
That's a log, not a map and it looks fine. The default temp compensation is something like air temp=100c coolant temp=100c, timing retard =0, fuel added=0? I really forget... I'd put it at 100, 100, 1, 0. If the timing retard looks like -10, you have found your problem.

peace
its weird though my car runs ok sometimes but at night it runs even more like crap.....i think i have 740cc injectors supposably 840 or 820 someting like that at 16 psi... there the stock modified....can i run good with those.. or do u have a map i can run that with
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Old 04-09-2005, 10:42 AM   #18
hippy
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My answer with the temp correction stuff was for the person who started the thread not you. First question I'd ask you is where did you get your map from? Second would be, what are your mods other then the injectors and fuel pump? Ya might wanna just try using one of the basemaps and scale the injectors in olf parameters to suite your injectors as best as possible. Ie- Injector scale at 740 would probably be kinda safe.

peace
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