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Old 04-10-2005, 12:03 AM   #1
wrxpeed
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Default how accurate is MAP gauge?

i just wanted to ask if the gauge on autologger or the logger in the hyuperterminal for the utec is pretty accurate or not. I just put a utec in last night and have the bleeder valve out most of the way and when i do some runs in 2nd gear am hitting only 14.5 psi on a map that is 16.5 psi max. i know the map makes no difference in the boost, but wanted to ask.
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Old 04-10-2005, 11:23 AM   #2
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I have had the same problem. its not the Utec. its the turbo. My WRX is the same year as yours and running hard on factory plumbing over works the turbo unit(waste gate included). subaru never built the OEM turbo system to be ran the hell out of everytime some one got excited. I had my car tuned @ SGP Racing and found out my turbo is crapping out because it will not push proper boost. I orderd an FP Green turbo and I am going to have it swapped out and retuned in a few weeks. If I were you I would up grade the turbo in your car or rebulid your old one. the rebuild option is only good if you dont plan to make any more upgrades. but if you up grade your turbo(preferably a ball bearing type) it will be easier to upgrade and tune other part in the future good luck
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Old 04-10-2005, 10:23 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxpeed
i just wanted to ask if the gauge on autologger or the logger in the hyuperterminal for the utec is pretty accurate or not. I just put a utec in last night and have the bleeder valve out most of the way and when i do some runs in 2nd gear am hitting only 14.5 psi on a map that is 16.5 psi max. i know the map makes no difference in the boost, but wanted to ask.

3rd gear will be slightly higher psi.. 4th even higher. 14.5 should be just about right imo.

Also.. read up on closed loop boost map. Its very easy to understand. Your default map should be 300. Search for micks tuning guide. Your ABC should be opened enough to give you the window of boost level you want to get... and the map should be used for fine tuning.

I'd trust the load level over the logger.

Rob
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Old 04-11-2005, 02:25 AM   #4
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I my self have tried changing the map boost setting and had my ABC turned all the way out to gain proper boost. My ABC is still turn out even after dyno tuned. owner of the shop tuned my car and told me it is a very bad thing to have your ABC adjusted that high because you cant re-adjust for different climates or seasons like hot summer and cold winter weather. so after 2 hours of dyno runs he trouble shooted down to my turbo as it was inefficiently pushing boost. but Rob here is right also check out micks tuning guide(good stuff) Do some reading and some adjusting in the map in the boost and if you still cant get any results then buy an new turbo or run that one till it completely craps out. it will still run for a good while just slowly losing boost pressure over time. your waste gate might not be working perfectly too. but I am not and expert and it just may need to be set right. Im just relaying what I have been told being I had(sounds like) the same problem

Last edited by Junk; 04-11-2005 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 04-11-2005, 08:12 AM   #5
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The map sensor is pretty accurate upto a point(somewhere above 20psi). The boost value from the logs(which would display in autologger or whatever) is not accurate. It's an averaged boost value txs made so the boost in the log doesn't fluctuate so much. The load is a much better representation of boost since even though it's also an averaged value, it's not averaged as much as the boost value in the log, and the load is what the utec uses to determine fueling and timing. Assuming you have the default parameters, each load site has a range of about 2psi. If you're in the 20% load the boost is from 2-4psi, 70% load column is between 12 and 14psi, and 80% load column you know the boost is somewhere between 14 and 16psi.......

The max boost you can run on a given stage 1-3 map isn't 16.5psi. 16.5psi is what turboxs recommends you run on those maps. Sometimes you might run more, sometimes you might run less. The boost will never be perfect, and the maps are made to compensate for higher or lower boost. Depending on your mods(like if you still have the stock exhaust on), it might be really hard to hit 16.5psi in first or second gear. This is cause the gears go by so quick, there is less load on the engine, and the stock turbo has a hard time holding that kinda boost in higher rpm ranges. If you're gonna hit 16.5psi of boost with the stock turbo, it most likely won't be above 5500rpm(it will probably happen between 3000 and 5500rpm then the boost will fall).

peace

Last edited by hippy; 04-11-2005 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 04-11-2005, 06:08 PM   #6
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AHH! finally some figures to translate those map figures. hey hippy you got any more translation? that would really help us newbies save a lot of tuning time if we knew exactly( well as close as possible) where we want to get to with out hours of experimenting.
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Old 04-11-2005, 06:22 PM   #7
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If you have any direct questions, I and/or someone else around here will definately try to answer them. I don't really know what you'd like to know. Here are a few of the basics though..... A lower gain will make the boost control solenoid try to ramp the boost up quicker at the cost of boost spikes when the boost first hits. I used to use a gain of 48, and it worked pretty well. Higher values in the boost map will help ya use the abc less(and obviously lower values will make it more necessary to open the abc more to get a given boost). I wouldn't go higher then 400 in prime boost areas(like 3000-5000rpm). If your tuner said there was something wrong with your turbo because it can't hold 16.5psi above 5500rpm, you should probably find a new tuner.

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Old 04-16-2005, 04:37 PM   #8
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thats good stuff. What I want to know is what do the values translate roughly on the map to the log values. like a tech told me @ TXS that about every 25 on raised on the map will raise the acutal boost 1 psi about. stuff like that. Basicly what I want to know is lthe same concept for the timing degrees and AFR. I just want to know how the map values are translated into actual read outs in small increments
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Old 04-18-2005, 06:41 PM   #9
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All MAP sensors are going to be NIST certified. They are solid state and cost about $10 for a bread board mountable version. They are "piezoelectic" sensors. "Piezo" pinch or squeeze in Greek. If you pinch some crystals they give off a voltage, we ar pinching with air pressure.

Does the boost gauge (electric not manual) match the UTEC? If yes, that's about all you can do, the rest is tuning.
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Old 04-25-2005, 11:53 AM   #10
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The boost map values don't translate to log values in the map sensor column. You can have 200's in the map, and 300's in the map and get the same boost dependent on how much the abc is open and what gain you use. Like you said, a change of 25 in the boost map might change the boost 1psi given everything else is equal, but that doesn't mean the number in the boost map directly relates to the boost you will get. A perfect example is of how the stock wrx and sti turbos lose their ability to sustain a good amount of boost uptop, so even if ya raise the values in the map 100 above 6000rpm compared to your value at 4000rpm, you could still get more boost at 4000rpm with the lower value.

The timing values are degrees before top dead center. Higher values make it so the spark plug in a given cylinder fires more degrees before its piston in its cylinder reaches top dead center(earlier) and lower values make it so the spark plugs fire less degrees before a the given piston in the spark plugs cylinder reaches top dead center. That simple. Higher values will generally make more power on boost, and lower values will generally be safer(generally less chance of detonation because of less peak cylinder pressure).

Air fuel ratio is the ratio of air to fuel that goes into a given cylinder. Here's a link to a ton of fueling(and some boost control) info. There are links within links, but by reading a bunch(if not all) of it, you will most likely learn a lot about fueling with your utec. As always, this is all just from what I've experienced and read, and I'm no expert.

peace
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Old 04-25-2005, 04:36 PM   #11
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thanx for the info...I didnt understand how the maps work and I still am a little lost but I understand much more now. just one more question. What about the parameters? do I need to mess with that and what is the parameters function in all this if you can adjust and change setting on the map?OK so it was 2 more questions
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Old 04-25-2005, 04:58 PM   #12
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Hey Hippy, I think that there is something wrong with my computer because I have a hard time accessing wrx hackers websites. it keeps giving me the "Unable to display page" error. it seems to be just with that site only. could you copy and paste the info from the links for that site on this thread if it isnt too much trouble? I know that it is a Pain in the ass to do that but I been having trouble viewing that site for a month now. and I tried to reset the setting on my laptop for the internet but it does nothing to help.
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Old 04-26-2005, 12:18 AM   #13
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Your problem with getting on wrxhackers seems like an spyware problem. Try getting spybot and running it to remove the stuff on your computer that shouldn't be there, then try going on wrxhackers again. Some parameters are a lot more important then others. If you're not sure what they do(which you obviously don't), you should just upload the parameters for the stage you're at from the txs download page and load that into your parameters. Also make sure that you have the newest version of the utec software since the parameters on the download page are ment for the newest utec version software and not prior versions.

peace
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Old 04-26-2005, 06:13 PM   #14
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ok good I already have the latest and greatest parameter file for my Utec. so I will not mess with any of that then. I am running a modified stage 2 map right now and at the end of this week( I hope) I will be installing a new turbo, fuel pump, and up pipe, the injector I will up grade as soon as I can get them, should I load the stage 4 parameter before or after all this takes place? I an not really installing them I am having a race shop do it cause I dont have the time or the place to be messing with that big of an upgrade. but I want to have the Utec ready to go and get tuned as soon as this is installed. I would upgrade the injectors at the same time but thats a nother 450 buck I will have to wait on and I will have to stay off the throttle untill I can get them in.
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Old 04-27-2005, 06:21 AM   #15
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You might just wanna wait for the injectors before installing anything or changing anything with the utec. You'd have to get the utec tuned again after installing the injectors....

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Old 04-27-2005, 06:04 PM   #16
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right on, what do you think about that injector mod, cutting the screens off?? do you think that is a good Idea to run with an FP Green turbo? I kind dont know is I need 740cc the 2.0l engine isnt that big for such a large amount of fuel IMO. but that is the only thing I can do right away
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Old 04-27-2005, 09:30 PM   #17
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I don't think the modded stockers would be too big, but I'm not so sure about using them in the first place(cause of tuneability issues). I really wouldn't know either way since I've never used them.

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Old 04-27-2005, 10:18 PM   #18
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I hear ya, I will probably just buy some if I can find them at a good price, thanx hippy
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Old 04-28-2005, 10:47 PM   #19
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Hey hippy I got the STi injectors now I am ready to go. getting my car fixed up this weekend. I went change my oil and was going to take a few pics for a before and after thing and early in this thread I mentioned my turbo crapping out, well I am getting oil leakage on the compresser side of the turbo. has your done that? some times I can smell it cooking after a good hard run too. not that it matter any cause it is getting swapped out but I was wondering why the damn thing is doing that. I checked the oil feed lines and there is no sigh of leaking there but it is all over the bottom of the compressor housing and on the intake tube. also want to know if you ever tried redline synth. oil and what you think about it. I have been running castrol full synth oil sence I bought the car but I am looking for something a little better. BTW where at in Florida are you located? I go to florida often cause I have family there and some times I work there on contract. It is a possibility that I might be there later this summer and want the scoop on where the preformance shop are in case I run into a snag I cant handle. Oh and I feel like such a prick for hijacking WRXPEED's thread. sorry about that man.
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Old 04-28-2005, 11:29 PM   #20
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I max out my sti injectors at 19-21psi of boost on my 18g while running 12 to 1 a/f ratio. Most people run richer, but I have water injection which lets me run at about 12.5 to 1(letting me not max out my injectors). Sti injectors run with a richer a/f ratio(what most people run on 93 octane, about 10.5-11.5 to 1) will most likely not be big enough for a green even at 16psi. If you're installing a green, it would be best to return the sti injectors if you can. If not, sell them to someone and mod your stock injectors or get bigger injectors.

If oil is on the bottom of the compressor housing and not all inside there, it might not be an oil leak from the turbo. You might wanna look into changing your pcv valve if you haven't done that in a while. Could be the turbo crappin out though, I don't know I'm no expert.

I use redline. It seems to work fine, but it's pretty expensive. Ya might wanna look into some royal purple just to save a few bux. I'm gonna try that stuff out after I run out of the redline I have.

I live in tampa. There's a place in jacksonville that I've heard of which supposedly tunes a lot of utecs. If you want a little help though and have a wbo2 sensor, I'm always glad to give a little help if I can.
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:29 AM   #21
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yeah the O2 set up is my next purchase after I put a little beef in the tranny. I dont think my pcv has ever been changed and I have almost 60k miles on the car now. I better do that before I put my stuff on then. I will try out the royal purple first then. how do you water inject the car? I am currently using the 11.5 ratio right now and still getting a few knocks from time to time. might be crappy gas though, I am not sure cause it doesnt do it to often. whats the leanest AFR that can be ran safely with out frying up the EGTs and causing knock? I need some goals to aim for when I do get my O2 set up and start road tuning my self
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:50 AM   #22
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Ya put water into the engine. Do a search for water injection, and ya might wanna check out Aquamist. There are many advantages to running water injection compared to running such a rich a/f ratio and only one real drawback(possible malfunction and danger of engine damage from malfunction).

Knock depends on lots of things(like boost, fuel and what not), and I'm really no expert. I'd think that the richer ya go to a point, the cooler the engine stays, the less chance of knock, but the less power made given all other things being equal. Many people aim for 11.5 to 1(I used to sometimes), and many people aim richer. Most people that I've seen don't go for leaner then that on 93 octane with a wrx at full boost.

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Old 04-29-2005, 12:59 AM   #23
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cool deal hippy. thanx alot when I get that O2 set up I will halla at you and get some pointer
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