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Old 02-06-2005, 06:43 PM   #1
NavyBlueSubaru
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Default Explain this crazy stupid knock...

Yea so recently my car has been knocking for random reasons i swear. I cannot tune this thing, i've nicknamed it "knock monster" because thats what it is. It seems like no matter how rich i run or how much timing i pull it still looks for an excuse to knock, and knock BIG. I'll try to attach a log here below. If anybody has any suggestions plz fill me in because i cannot figure this darn thing out.

Code:
 4084  +7.4 3.5  72  50    00   W/B  +19.7   34.1 +16.0  +0.2 304.00 3.1  12.14
 4566  +8.8 3.9  92  60    00   W/B  +12.2   50.3 +16.4  +0.4 320.00 3.4  11.93
 5144 +10.4 4.1 101  70    21   W/B  +14.0   66.2 +13.4  +0.5 330.00 3.6  10.80
 5678 +12.9 4.3 101  80    00   W/B  +15.3   68.6 +14.8  +0.3 340.00 3.7  9.84
 6172 +14.7 4.4 100  90    38   W/B  +17.5   77.4 +14.8  +0.0 360.00 3.8  9.83
 6640 +16.1 4.3  98  90    38   W/B  +22.7   73.9 +16.6  -0.1 370.00 3.8  10.31
 7092 +16.3 4.4  54  80    00   W/B  +34.4   42.8 +23.9  -0.3 308.00 2.7  10.53
 6613 +10.8 1.6   0  00    00   W/B  +10.6    6.5 ECU.   +0.0 ECU.   1.3  10.86
AND
Code:
 4681  +4.7 3.9 101  40    00   W/B  +12.3   50.4 +18.5  -0.2 320.00 3.4  10.09
 4810  +8.0 4.1 101  60    00   W/B   +7.2   63.5 +17.3  +0.4 320.00 3.6  9.49
 5065 +11.9 4.3 101  80    05   W/B   +8.3   70.8  +9.2  +0.6 330.00 3.7  < 9:1
 5136 +15.3 4.3  99 100    29   W/B   +9.6   72.7  +7.4  +0.6 330.00 3.7  9.06
 5307 +17.6 4.3  96 100    30   W/B  +13.5   70.2  +8.8  +0.6 330.00 3.7  9.70
 5630 +18.4 4.3  93  90    00   W/B  +14.8   71.5 +16.7  +0.6 340.00 3.7  10.08
 5787 +18.0 4.3  90  90    00   W/B  +16.4   74.5 +17.3  +0.6 350.00 3.7  10.15

Jeff
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Old 02-06-2005, 07:17 PM   #2
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may be some bad gas?
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Old 02-06-2005, 09:52 PM   #3
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well i dont think thats it...i've put like 2 tanks in since i emptied out the tank's worth that was in it for 6 months. I hope that IS it but i dont think it is.

Jeff
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Old 02-06-2005, 10:13 PM   #4
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I had the same experiences, you can read my old thread from this december.. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=687270 ... I don't believe you are getting knock, you are just getting heavy misfires. Taking out timing and running as incredibly rich as you are (in the 9s is stuipd to be honest), i'm not surprised you're getting misfires. What i did when i got 43 counts of knock in a similar situation was that i just increased timing, and what do you know, the knock decreased significantly, nearly zero...
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Old 02-06-2005, 10:21 PM   #5
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Yeah I definitely agree with jefersun, you are way too rich. You should be tuning for around an 11.1:1 A/F ratio and should definitely be running more timing in that area of the powerband.

-Matt
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Old 02-06-2005, 10:31 PM   #6
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Those are rich misfires. bring up those AFRs to high 10s -11:1. The car will feel much crisper, and the problem will most likely be solved. Add a few degrees of timing as well. You are just pouring fuel through the engine now.

If the problem persists, change your plugs.
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Old 02-06-2005, 10:38 PM   #7
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And when you change your plugs, gap them to a smaller gap than stock, like .027. That should help prevent against misfires. The closer the gap the less distance the spark has to travel, thus the less chance of it being "blown out" and causing a misfire...
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Old 02-06-2005, 10:55 PM   #8
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Buy a gallon or 2 of toluene/xylene and add that to the tank and lean it out a bit...
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Old 02-07-2005, 06:38 AM   #9
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i agree with the "way too rich" posts above... increase afr about two full points.

jm2c
ken
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Old 02-07-2005, 07:23 AM   #10
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^^^
X3
Looks WAY to rich. Try pulling some fuel and bring it back into the mid 10's at least.

TMS
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Old 02-07-2005, 10:05 AM   #11
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Yea i knew it was too rich and it normally doesnt dip that low...I was wanting to ask how rich you have to go before you misfire from it and i guess the answer is around 9:1. I know it shouldn't be this rich, i have tried a bunch of different map techniques and this one is still rich in a few spots.

Thanks for the help, i'll see what i can do to fix it.

Jeff
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Old 02-07-2005, 10:11 AM   #12
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Also one more thing...Does anybody have suggestions as target AFR's to run at different boost levels, like 8, 10, 12, and 14 psi? I plan on running around 10.5:1 in the winder at full boost(18psi) but at like 12psi how lean can i run...11.5:1 maybe? im thinking of unplugging my solenoid and tuning the car at spring pressure(11psi) and seeing how that goes, maybe i wont get knock that low.

Jeff
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Old 02-07-2005, 11:24 AM   #13
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Code:
8     10    12   14
12.5 12.0 11.5 11.1
...or so. this is of course assuming in the midrange.
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Old 02-07-2005, 11:50 AM   #14
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i go stoich up to 10psi, fwiw.
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Old 02-07-2005, 12:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
i go stoich up to 10psi, fwiw.
^ the better option. i never got to that place, just because it seemed like i had to remove stupid amounts of fuel to get to stoich up to 10psi. im sure it would greatly help my fuel economy and turbo response, though. heh
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Old 02-07-2005, 12:55 PM   #16
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that seems very lean for 10psi, whatever works though. I think i might try a little richer than that, like maybe 13:1 or 12:1. I was hoping i could pull off 11:1 at 1 bar and maybe 12:1 around 10-12 psi.

Jeff
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Old 02-07-2005, 01:20 PM   #17
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it seems lean, but i drove around for a year like that with an mbc. the ecu never pulled timing.

remember the car runs stoich at wastegate boost constantly as it comes from the factory. this is only 2-3psi more.
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Old 02-07-2005, 05:13 PM   #18
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Well i've gotten tuned now in 4th gear up to 5k rpms. My target AFR's are 12:1 up to 12psi, 11:1 at ~14psi(~1 bar). So far with it tuned like this the turbo spools up a lot quicker and feels more responsive. I'd like to tune higher rpms but that would mean going faster than 100mph in 4th so i'll have to do it later in 3rd gear, i ran out of time.

Jeff
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Old 02-07-2005, 07:03 PM   #19
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Are you running your water injection system with that too? Maybe 11 to 1 is even a bit rich?
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Old 02-07-2005, 07:34 PM   #20
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No im not running W.I. Just yet. As soon as i get the tune all sorted out then i will.

Jeff
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Old 02-08-2005, 04:32 PM   #21
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I can confirm. Its rich misfire. You dont have nearly evough timing in that area either. Ramp up timing in 2 degree steps and that will lean you out a bit. AFR should be in the mid 10's to 11 to 1 on pump gas with healthy timing for optimal power and EGT. I would start by taking a full point out of that entire fuel map. Or increase both injector scale settings up 30 points.

CLark
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Old 02-08-2005, 05:14 PM   #22
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Thanks clark for the input...

Jeff
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Old 04-25-2005, 05:45 AM   #23
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Well I just got back from a 10-day underway. Before i left the wrx would knock pretty bad everytime i would get above 10psi. Since i got back, i have flogged it just like before, and it has not knocked 1 single time. Its like it just "went away" and i did pretty much nothing to it in the meantime. All i did was take off the intake pipe into the throttle body and look to see if my W.I. injectors were seated right, then put it back on, as well as add some distilled water to my W.I. tank and voila, no knock. I really dont know what was causing it or why it went away but im seriously glad, it made my day to be able to finally tune it for real for the first time in 4 months.

Since the knock has gone, i checked out a few things. My motormount on the passenger side was totally loose, so i tightened that down.

Anyways, i've been trying to see if it will knock but i cant get it too...just like the old days! Im running W.I. and my plan is to first get the boost to flatline at 18psi all the way to 7k, all the while maintaining an afr of around 11:1 to 11.5:1. This is all while running stock ecu timing. Once i get it to run 18psi everywhere and stay at 11.5, then i'll go back and play with the timing. With the W.I., i'd really like to see if i could get it as lean as 12:1, i really have no need to run super rich for the sake of cylinder temps because that is what the W.I. is for. Well ill post my results whenever i get something substantial.

Jeff
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Old 04-25-2005, 07:17 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
Since the knock has gone, i checked out a few things. My motormount on the passenger side was totally loose, so i tightened that down.
^^^^^^^^^^
there was the problem, jeff!

imo,
ken
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Old 04-25-2005, 10:46 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
^^^^^^^^^^
there was the problem, jeff!

imo,
ken
oooo. good catch, ken. i totally glossed over that, myself!
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