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Old 04-13-2005, 04:44 PM   #1
m4r10
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Default whiteline g4's, camber plates? help me make sense out of my search

I ordered a set of Whiteline G4 coilovers for my 02 wrx. After doing much searching and reading, I've found out several things I didn't know. I thought my head was going to explode from all the info in this forum about this topic. But still, I just want to make sure and ask questions specific to my setup:

Whiteline group 4 coilovers
Cusco 22mm rear sway bar w/whiteline endlinks

It would be mostly for street(daily driver) and having fun on twisty mountain roads. Maybe autocross 1 or twice.
I learned that I needed to get stut top mounts if I wanted to keep my stock set in one piece. But then I ran into talk about camber plates.
Lemme get this straight.
1. If I get camber plates to go with the new coilovers I do not need the strut top mounts because they replace the strut top mounts?

2. If I get camber plates do I need to buy them for the front and back(2 sets) necessary?

3. WRX's do not handle well "slammed". I was trying to find ideal height settings for hanling but only found them as center of hub to metal fender lip. 14.3"F and 13.9"R. Right? I still wanted to look lower than stock cuz that fender gap in the front just bugs the crap out of me.

So do I need to purchase anything else other than the camber plates to complete my install? And by the way, I won't be doing this myself. I'll have to find a reputable shop around here. And do I tell them "I want a front ride height of 14.3" and 13.9 in the rear."?

Most of the information I read was pretty old. Like '03 so if anybody has any recomendations on wich ones would work well with my setup or any new info, it would be greatly appreciated!

Sorry for the long post!
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Old 04-13-2005, 05:10 PM   #2
DougM
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the whitelines DO NOT come with strut tops, so yes, you'd either need to reuse your stock top hats or buy new ones, you could buy camber plates, they ARE strut tops, yes, same deal.

things to note: whiteline designed the group4's to use the stock strut top hats. if you decide to use camber plates, you will be reducing the amount of shock travel that is available, which will give you a harsher ride. camber plates also increase road noise and suspension noise (they ain't rubber). another thing, most camber plate designs have the plate BELOW the strut tower, this will increase the ride height (the thickness of the plate). The g4's are designed such that you can not lower the car to "super slammed" levels, I have mine set as low as they go in the front and they are still higher than my previous setup. Camber plates will make this worse.

If you don't want to use your stock hats (good idea to keep your old assembly "assembled") you could buy some used top hats, or the groupN STi top hats (kind of spendy).

Also, most folks don't use camber plates on the rear assemblies, so if you did go with camber plates, just do the fronts, at least for now.

ride heights, tricky question. best thing would be to have your car corner balanced and then aligned. A quality (race) shop could do your install (or you could do it yourself) corner balance the car and do your alignment all at once. It might also be a good idea to have them installed and then drive them for a bit before finalizing the ride height (or corner balance) and then do your alignment. this gives them the opportunity to settle in without screwing up your alignment.

the ride heights you listed above seem a little tall to me, I read that closer to 13.5" (or 342mm) from center of wheel to edge of fender opening was optimum.
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Old 04-13-2005, 05:38 PM   #3
m4r10
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let me ask u a couple of things Doug,
Do u know any camber plates out there that will NOT increase my ride height?
Again I don't need my car "slammed" I just wanted to look lower than stock cuz of that huge front fender gap. You said that you have yours as low as they go. is it a noticeable improvement in handling? Do u have a pic of your car? I'm assuming you don't have camber plates right?

The only reason I would get camber plates is if they were to give me a noticeable improvement in handling and if this was worth the money
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Old 04-13-2005, 05:41 PM   #4
DougM
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I'm reading here

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...optimum+height

that 358mm front/ 338mm rear is sought after.

that said, Ive read posts from whiteline stating that they typically don't like to have the rear much lower than the front (10mm or so). I've also read that others prefer the rears even higher, so there's a slight rake from rear to front. 338mm at the rear seems a little low to me. 358 in the front seems a little high to me

I'm going with about 350 front (as low as it goes with groupN top hats). 340 rear (splitting hairs, I know). This is on my 04STi
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Old 04-13-2005, 05:44 PM   #5
m4r10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougM
I'm reading here

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...optimum+height

that 358mm front/ 338mm rear is sought after.

that said, Ive read posts from whiteline stating that they typically don't like to have the rear much lower than the front (10mm or so). I've also read that others prefer the rears even higher, so there's a slight rake from rear to front. 338mm at the rear seems a little low to me. 358 in the front seems a little high to me

I'm going with about 350 front (as low as it goes with groupN top hats). 340 rear (splitting hairs, I know). This is on my 04STi
R U happy with results???
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Old 04-13-2005, 05:51 PM   #6
DougM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m4r10
let me ask u a couple of things Doug,
Do u know any camber plates out there that will NOT increase my ride height?
Ground Control is developing a camber/caster solution that will retain stock heights. Drilling is required though (expensive too, but more caster is good)

These whitelines were developed with additional static camber built in. They claim an extra degree of negative camber adjustment is available with this setup over stock (using stock design top hats). I'll know for sure Friday when I have my car aligned.

If you're mostly the daily-driver type, I wouldn't bother with camber plates right now, you can probably dial in plenty of negetive camber for your needs (-2`front, -1.6` rear without any additional hardware). If you're a semi-serious competitor then it might make sense to go with a camber/caster top hat solution, caster is your friend.

Yes, I'm on the groupN top hats, too early to write a review, I'm waiting on the alignment. The ride quality is top notch though.
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Old 04-13-2005, 06:03 PM   #7
Mark Avery
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougM
I read that closer to 13.5" (or 342mm) from center of wheel to edge of fender opening was optimum.
13.5" is not "optimum," it's "minimum." Any lower adversly affects camber curve and roll center - handling gets worse not better. You don't want your static ride height at 13.5", you want ride height set so when the suspension compresses on the loaded side in the turns it doesn't go much lower than 13.5".

You can adjust the ride height on your coilovers to compensate for the added height of camber plates. You'll lose suspension travel, but as long as you're not slamming the car or taking it rally racing, it's no big deal. Lowering the front more than the rear to eliminate that "unsightly" wheel well gap looks cool, but isn't best for performance and, with camber plates, can seriously compromise suspension travel.
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Old 04-13-2005, 06:09 PM   #8
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My personal ride height recommendation is for the Circuit/Street spec Group 4's:

F 365mm (14.37"), R 355 mm(13.98")

Tophats: for your uses I would also recommend Group N top hats or stock WRX tophats. You really don't need camber plates.

In addition, rear camber bolts would be nice to be able to perfectly dial in rear camber.
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Old 04-13-2005, 06:14 PM   #9
DougM
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365/355? that's pretty close to the stock STi height. Your driving a wagon (?) can we compare? thanks for chimming in Arnie. any other ride-height "threads of note" we should be looking at?
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Old 04-13-2005, 06:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougM
365/355? that's pretty close to the stock STi height.
EXACTLY!
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Old 04-13-2005, 09:26 PM   #11
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It surprises me that no-one (afaik) makes a fixed camber/caster plate for our cars (i.e. really just an eccentric strut top). Without the adjustment, couldn't it be more compact so as to have less impact on height/travel?

Just seems to me we need more caster and (negative) camber - not more adjustment - obviously excepting those who regularly switch between a street and a race setup.
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Old 04-13-2005, 09:48 PM   #12
m4r10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Avery
Lowering the front more than the rear to eliminate that "unsightly" wheel well gap looks cool, but isn't best for performance and, with camber plates, can seriously compromise suspension travel.
it will affect my handling adversly to lower the front more than the back? If so I won't be doing that. But as long as I get the front lowerd enough so that my car doesn't look like it's about to fly off the ground Any pics with whiteline G4's out there? No need to post mine. Y'all know what that gap on a stock suspension looks like.
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Old 04-13-2005, 10:11 PM   #13
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What's the point of posting pics of the car with G4's? The ride height will be purely owner's taste so he could be on Cusco's for all you know. Know what I mean?

Re: ride height, we've had some numerous discussions regarding this in relation to spring rate, coil bind and strut travel in relation to performance. Most have come to the unscientific conclusion that my above posted ride heights are pretty ideal for the given spring rate. You can go a bit lower, and I have, but I prefered the handling of the car with the above numbers. Aesthetically it looks pretty dope too, not slammed at all but much of the "unsightly" fender gap is reduced.

But just to appease you...

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Old 04-13-2005, 10:42 PM   #14
Mark Avery
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m4r10
will it affect my handling adversly to lower the front more than the back?
Lowering the front more than the rear changes the relative center of gravity and roll center at each end. From a purely performance/handling point of view, it's best to lower the car evenly.

Will lowering the front more screw the pooch so bad you'll hate the car? Probably not. But, I choose not to compromise performance for bling.

Also, Arnie's ride height numbers are for a wagon. A sedan has 10mm MORE front wheel well gap than a wagon, so an even drop on a sedan would be 375/355. yet another reason why wagons rule.
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Old 04-13-2005, 11:25 PM   #15
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Mark hits the nail on the head!

But regarding my ride height, I think you will be fine somewhere between the 375-365 mm F/355mm R for the sedan. Whiteline likes to drop the front just a wee bit ( a bit of front rake) for some front end bite, so they tell me. The measurements I use are actually their recommendation for a WRX Sedan but they work fine for the wagon too! And yeah, wagons rock!
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Old 04-13-2005, 11:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Avery
Lowering the front more than the rear changes the relative center of gravity and roll center at each end.
...weight transfer, I prefer a slight front bias to help rotate the car at the autox's, larger front and rear bars for roll, -camber up front, not too much, probably not enough really. this was on the JIC flta2's, I'm guessing less pitch with those though, I'm curious how the group4's are going to work out comparitively.
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Old 04-14-2005, 12:21 AM   #17
m4r10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnie

I'm perfectly fine with that fender gap. If my sedan can have the same stance with my whiteline coilovers withouth sacrificing handling I would be very happy! Like this----->
btw, nice wagon, man!
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Old 04-14-2005, 01:19 AM   #18
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In the end, how you set up the car will be your business, we can only provide the basic guidelines for a solid basic setup. As you put miles on your setup and discover issues or questions on setup, feel free to post up and I'm sure one of the knowledeable guys here can point you in the right direction. Just remember, there are more ways to get your suspension wrong than right!
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Old 04-14-2005, 01:31 AM   #19
DougM
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car looks good Arnie, what size wheels/tires are you showing here?
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Old 04-14-2005, 01:37 AM   #20
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Those are 17" Rota Attacks (bronze) with 215/45-17 Pirelli Corsa's. this size is an interesting bastard for this tire as it runs a 140 treadwear rating compared to the usual 60 on all the other sizes.

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Old 04-14-2005, 02:12 AM   #21
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would it then qualify for the street touring categories? (maybe I saw somewhere that they specifically excluded it).

that is strange though
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