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Old 04-14-2005, 02:54 PM   #1
Richard L
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Default Aquamist (Water injection) questions and answers here...

My name is Richard Lamb and part of Aquamist team, I am available to answer any Aquamist application related questions.

There has been a great deal of discussion lately on the NASIOC forum and someone on this forum has prompted me to register here and contribute something useful. I cannot answer any sales ralated questions since Aquamist do not sell directly to the US.

I need some questions to get me started so if you have any , please post here.
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Last edited by Richard L; 04-14-2005 at 07:18 PM. Reason: bad spellings as usual
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Old 04-14-2005, 03:01 PM   #2
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How much can an aquamist pump flow? I've heard it flows something like 300cc stock, and you can up that a bit. What if I wanted to run 600+cc of water without the pressure going down? Would I have to use two pumps?

peace

ps- Do you have any used aquamist jets layin around, and would you like to trade me two 1mm jets for two .7mm jets and a .4mm jet?
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Old 04-14-2005, 03:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
How much can an aquamist pump flow? I've heard it flows something like 300cc stock, and you can up that a bit. What if I wanted to run 600+cc of water without the pressure going down? Would I have to use two pumps?

peace

ps- Do you have any used aquamist jets layin around, and would you like to trade me two 1mm jets for two .7mm jets and a .4mm jet?

The aquamist pump can deliver 300cc/min at 6.5 bar. If you want more flow at about the same pressure, a simple priming pump can be used to increase the flow to about 600cc/min.

I cannot trade nozzles over the atlantic but if the nozzles are new, you can trade it with your supplier in the USA - we do it here in the UK. Most people here specify what they want during purchasing - normally after some lengthly discussions.

Our listed main line distributors holds all sizes - I am sure they will trade it with you but perhaps not "one" 1mm for "two" 0.7mm, I think "one for one" is fair. "one " for "three" is definately no go.
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Old 04-14-2005, 04:40 PM   #4
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I have two .7's and a .4. I want 2 1mm's. I don't wanna buy two more jets. They are used. I do want more flow then 600cc's...... Sorry to hijack your thread.

peace
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Old 04-14-2005, 04:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
I have two .7's and a .4. I want 2 1mm's. I don't wanna buy two more jets. They are used. I do want more flow then 600cc's...... Sorry to hijack your thread.

peace
There is a simplier way to getting round this problem. Since you have the smaller jets, you can drill them out to 1mm yourself.
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Old 04-14-2005, 04:52 PM   #6
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Will that have the same effect? I always thought there was some kinda pattern in the jet that made the water mist better? Do you think I should get a little tapping bit and put that in after I drill em out?
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Old 04-14-2005, 05:19 PM   #7
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Apart from getting a slightly wider angle, there no negative effects. The internal spinner is the same between 0.7 to 1mm if the jet are over six months old.

The latest range of jet have different internals, spinners have variable number of groves and depth depending on the orifice size.

It is important to have a range of droplet size so evaporation takes place progressively.
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Old 04-14-2005, 06:30 PM   #8
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Hmm..lets see. How effective, or how helpful would it be to run a water injection system on a usdm 2.0L block w/ , say a super16G tuned for, say 280whp? I know once you start creeping closer towards 300hp on usdm blocks, they dont last very long. would a W/I system help to prolong block failure, or would it not make a difference? To get 280hp w/ just the 16G, you'd have to push the turbo a little hard and make a little more aggressive tune. but w/ W/I you could probably back the turbo off a little bit and use a more effiecient tune
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Old 04-14-2005, 07:12 PM   #9
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I am no expert on usdm WRX engine, please tell me how you regard as block failure?

Journals, rods, bearings or sleeves etc, which is the most likely item to failure on high boost?
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Old 04-14-2005, 07:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
I have two .7's and a .4. I want 2 1mm's. I don't wanna buy two more jets. They are used. I do want more flow then 600cc's...... Sorry to hijack your thread.

peace
600cc/m of water is almost equivalent of injecting 3.6 litre if fuel per minute !

It will remove 24KW of heat energy or 32 Horse Power - what type of tuned engine do you have?
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Old 04-14-2005, 07:38 PM   #11
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Richard,
I have one of your Aquamist 3D systems installed into my STI, but cannot get it to work with my EM. I've tested the electrical setup with the stock ECU in place and it works fine, but when I plug my Hydra (standalone EMS) into the harness, it will not start the car until the fuel injector wire tap going to the FIA2 is unplugged.

Is there anything you can think of why this would either be shorting the fuel injector circuit to the Hydra, or if it is due to the Hydra being driven by sequential injection as opposed to the stock batch injection? I am really stumped with this and don't even know any other ways to approach it.

I know the Hydra "can" control the HSV directly, but there is a huge amount of work and development in doing so (creating 3d map, figuring out PWM settings, calibrating flow, etc) that I just don't feel like getting into. I rather not use my car as a test bed either for something so important until someone else has paved the way.

Right now I think maybe one of the best ways to overcome this mightbe to setup a 5th injector in the hydra, but run it directly into the FIA2. Could you please provide some insight?

Bill
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Old 04-14-2005, 07:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick
Richard,
I have one of your Aquamist 3D systems installed into my STI, but cannot get it to work with my EM. I've tested the electrical setup with the stock ECU in place and it works fine, but when I plug my Hydra (standalone EMS) into the harness, it will not start the car until the fuel injector wire tap going to the FIA2 is unplugged.

Is there anything you can think of why this would either be shorting the fuel injector circuit to the Hydra, or if it is due to the Hydra being driven by sequential injection as opposed to the stock batch injection? I am really stumped with this and don't even know any other ways to approach it.

I know the Hydra "can" control the HSV directly, but there is a huge amount of work and development in doing so (creating 3d map, figuring out PWM settings, calibrating flow, etc) that I just don't feel like getting into. I rather not use my car as a test bed either for something so important until someone else has paved the way.

Right now I think maybe one of the best ways to overcome this mightbe to setup a 5th injector in the hydra, but run it directly into the FIA2. Could you please provide some insight?

Bill
It is most unusual, the FIA2 injector sensing wire will only draw about 1mA. In automotive terms, it is virtually next to nothing.

Would you be able to do some diagnostics for me and post the results here?
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Old 04-14-2005, 08:05 PM   #13
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Old 04-14-2005, 08:11 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
I am no expert on usdm WRX engine, please tell me how you regard as block failure?

Journals, rods, bearings or sleeves etc, which is the most likely item to failure on high boost?

that im not really sure of, most of what ive found on the forums whenever the issue of 300hp on a wrx block is brought up is usually just "it can be done, but the block wont last long"

Ive just been trying to weigh in my options lately, in the end tho i still think im leaning towards a straight jdm sti swap. for the money i'd spend to bring my car up to a "stage 4" level, id only be a couple thousand extra away from a v.7 swap, and id have the same power (if not more) and a much more reliable engine. I plan on keepin my car for awhile, and while the power level i want isnt EXTREME, it does run on the fault line for potential problems, and id rather deal w/ the problems BEFORE they occur

I was just curious to see if the addition of a water injection system would be any "safer" or, more easy on the engine..but my thoughts are that in the end, power is power, now matter how you get there it could still hold the same potential for somthing to happen
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Old 04-14-2005, 09:22 PM   #15
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Hi Richard
Questions you should answer in the quest of water injection knowledge

How do you calculate the correct nozzle size for a given setup? Please base this calculation on the Systems 2D but also talk about what happens if a System1S is used. Please disclose the target percentage of water to inject.

What are the effects of not enough water?

What are the effects of too much water?

Should alcohol or other additives be added to the injected water?

Please discuss nozzle placement? Before IC, after IC or both?

Is a re-tune really needed after installation of a water injection system?

These are all questions I get asked and answer but it would be great to have the offical "Aquamist" response.
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Old 04-14-2005, 09:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
600cc/m of water is almost equivalent of injecting 3.6 litre if fuel per minute !

It will remove 24KW of heat energy or 32 Horse Power - what type of tuned engine do you have?
I have a wrx with sti injectors. Trying to run an a/f ratio of 12.5 to 1 at 23psi of boost on an 18g. Getting about 4.4-4.5 maf voltage with an aps 70mm intake... I think I'm lookin for about a 15-20% water to fuel ratio, but I'm kinda drunk so I forget. Maybe I shoulda waited til tommorow to respond? eh,

peace
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Old 04-14-2005, 09:50 PM   #17
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Richard,
I'll have time next week to start digging into this with my car. What exactly do you want me to do/check?

I think we should try to redirect the basic WI questions over to
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/ or
http://www.waterinjection.info/

This has most basic information about water injection.
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Old 04-15-2005, 02:52 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDAFC21
that im not really sure of, most of what ive found on the forums whenever the issue of 300hp on a wrx block is brought up is usually just "it can be done, but the block wont last long"

Ive just been trying to weigh in my options lately, in the end tho i still think im leaning towards a straight jdm sti swap. for the money i'd spend to bring my car up to a "stage 4" level, id only be a couple thousand extra away from a v.7 swap, and id have the same power (if not more) and a much more reliable engine. I plan on keepin my car for awhile, and while the power level i want isnt EXTREME, it does run on the fault line for potential problems, and id rather deal w/ the problems BEFORE they occur

I was just curious to see if the addition of a water injection system would be any "safer" or, more easy on the engine..but my thoughts are that in the end, power is power, now matter how you get there it could still hold the same potential for somthing to happen
I was running WI on the ej205 block (with around 280whp) until I swapped to the ej257. Crawford did the swap and noted how pristine my heads and pistons looked. Note I didn't do my block swap due to engine failure - my old block is still lying around Quirt's shop (I hope) I had about 10k at those power levels with no failure...

One thing WI does for you, even if you didn't tune for extra power, is lower your intake temps and EGTs, which can be good for engine longevity.
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Old 04-15-2005, 07:54 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDAFC21
that im not really sure of, most of what ive found on the forums whenever the issue of 300hp on a wrx block is brought up is usually just "it can be done, but the block wont last long"

Ive just been trying to weigh in my options lately, in the end tho i still think im leaning towards a straight jdm sti swap. for the money i'd spend to bring my car up to a "stage 4" level, id only be a couple thousand extra away from a v.7 swap, and id have the same power (if not more) and a much more reliable engine. I plan on keepin my car for awhile, and while the power level i want isnt EXTREME, it does run on the fault line for potential problems, and id rather deal w/ the problems BEFORE they occur

I was just curious to see if the addition of a water injection system would be any "safer" or, more easy on the engine..but my thoughts are that in the end, power is power, now matter how you get there it could still hold the same potential for somthing to happen

Engine block failures can be broken down in to several areas listed below. Pinning the cause of failure above a given output would probably be an unfair one.

Piston failure:
Detonation must be the on the top of the list – no need to elaborate. One other factor is often ignored is the in-cylinder temperature, expansion due to heat causes excess friction between the rings and bore. Heat generated in that end-flame region promotes detonation. Water injection will make improvement here.

Connecting rod failure:
Most stock rod should be able to handle certain “compression and stretch” cycle with reasonable reliability. Since peak torque is rarely developed at peak power, one can assume that the rod is at its “most stressed” state at the maximum torque region. If you increase your peak power figure at a higher RPM region (until below red line), the connecting rod is not under any addition stress provided no detonation occurs. Water injection has no effect here.

Bearing failure:
One of the most common failure but rarely discussed. Increase power normally accompanied with increase in torque figures. All bearings during power stroke will tend to momentarily starve of oil between the rotating surfaces at the “peak cylinder pressure” region, although just a very short duration but if the oil film is not restored quickly, bearing failure can occur within a few cycles especially under detonation conditions. In order to prevent this from happening, one must have good oil pressure and good quality oil that will work at very cold and very hot temperatures.

When engine performance is increased outside the designed envelope, it is often accompanied with excess fuel to supplement the in-cylinder cooling shortfall but unfortunately, the quantity required is closely related to the power output and fuel quality. A portion of un-burnt fuel will find itself to the sump (monitor it yourself by sniffing the oil dipstick), the contaminated oil will be not perform as well on occasional transition knock condition.

Water injection will certainly help on these occasions because you only need to injection a small amount to replace the need to run over-rich a/f mixture. A mere 3% w/f ratio is need to replaced the same cooling effect from a/f ratio of 10:1 to 12.5:1 !!! We normally recommend w/f ratio of 10-15% by volume – since the amount of water injected is very small, oil contamination is low. You will find the power will also increase with extra boost because the excess fuel will not suppress the burn profile.

Other failure:
Suggestions?


Other solutions to make the engine reliable to beyond 300whp?

Last edited by Richard L; 04-15-2005 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 04-15-2005, 10:51 AM   #20
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Would it be possible to run a smaller jet, ie lower percent injection rate, on a car not tuned to use WI? I am currently running a vf34,sti pinks, catless system, hyperflow v2 tmic and cobb engine managment. I do not plan on getting the tunre, which would allow the optimazation of WI, but would like to use it non the less. Thanks
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Old 04-16-2005, 04:58 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge
Hi Richard
Questions you should answer in the quest of water injection knowledge

How do you calculate the correct nozzle size for a given setup? Please base this calculation on the Systems 2D but also talk about what happens if a System1S is used. Please disclose the target percentage of water to inject.

What are the effects of not enough water?

What are the effects of too much water?

Should alcohol or other additives be added to the injected water?

Please discuss nozzle placement? Before IC, after IC or both?

Is a re-tune really needed after installation of a water injection system?

These are all questions I get asked and answer but it would be great to have the offical "Aquamist" response.

Mick, answers to your questions

How do you calculate the correct nozzle size for a given setup? Please base this calculation on the Systems 2D but also talk about what happens if a System1S is used. Please disclose the target percentage of water to inject.

System2d is originally designed to address a specific application, its main purpose is to replacing the need for running excess fuel to cool the cylinders due to several factors such as low fuel grade, high ambient and power upgrade. It is a relatively simple system to incorporate since it just mirrors the fuel injector’s duty cycle and allow water to replace the need for dumping fuel. Although at a fixed duty cycle ratio – ratio can easily be changed by putting in different size water jet. The 2d is not confined to copying the fuel injector’s duty cycle only but it can also be driven by any third party ECUs and make your own 3-D water injection map. Some ECU have a “map switch” input that will be able to interface with the 2d’s fault output – preferable “on the fly”.

In order to allow replacing fuel dumping safely, the 2d has a water fault output. It has a unique but way of detecting the absence of water in the event of a blocked jet or cut hose in real time. The diagnostic circuitry is quite simple, the piston pump supplies a PWM signal directly to the FIA2 (controller) proportional of water flow, this signal is then compared with the duty cycle of the High speed Water valve, if the two signal is out of sync. It flags a fault. This output (1A to ground) can be used in a number of ways to initialize “Plan–B”, for example, it can switch relay to cut boost, switch map (custom ECU) or even switch in a resistor in the “coolant sensor” line to ”fool” engine into dumping fuel.

Calculating w/f ratio with the 2d is extremely simple, divide the total injector size with a percentage. We normally recommend between 10-15%. You don’t have to worry about the duty cycle since it applies to both water and fuel at the same time. 10-15% w/f will allow you to replace the same cooling effect between 10:1 to 12.5% a/f ratio, three times over! Each aquamist jet is flow specified, orifice size ranging from 0.3mm to 1mm, covering a flow range of 75cc/min to ~300cc/min at 6.6 bar. Although 3% w/f is adequate for replacing 10:1 to 12.5:1 ratio, user should tune the ratio according to EGT, knock event because of many fuel grade variations, turbo efficiency and ambient temperatures. If in doubt, consult a tuning specialist on your kind of engine, preferably a “water injection friendly” variety.

System1s… basic but can be very effective if you use the following guide line:
The most stressful region of an engine is around the maximum torque area, the cylinder pressure and temperature is extremely high, onset of detonation is most light – knock limit of your fuel is severely tested. If the 1s is triggered just before this region, it will allow you to widen your safety limit under extremely operating conditions. As the RPM increases, the w/a ratio is naturally tailing off which in most cases ideal since the engine do not breath as well and the requirement for in-cylinder cooling is not as paramount. This application for the system1s is not extreme and fail-safe option is not required – just used it as added safety net. In the absence of water flow, the engine management should re-adjust timing and fuel according to factory strategy – may loose a few horsepower but not life threatening.
By incorporating a flow-monitoring device such a s the DDS2/3 (Dash Display System), the 1s is instantly transformed and can now be used as a power enhancing add-on and tune for extreme timing and fuel trim. If your car is equipped with a re-flash device and unable to store a second map, you have use the DDS to reduce boost in the absence of water. For those who are lucky to own a piggy-back system – you can do much more with timing, fuel and boost map. Again select the jet size to suit your application. The investment for a 1s is more meaningful when paired with a DDS.




What are the effects of not enough water?

I can only quantify water flow by w/f ratio. Not enough water is often is mistaken for not having tune you engine optimized to take water. Water has the same effect as tuning for racing fuel – timing and fuel trim should be modified to suit. As from 3% w/f ratio, you will be able to see a small timing change normally see a “rise” in EGT is ignition is not advanced (delayed combustion raised EGT). Under load, you will see a reduction in knock level – it will take some time for the ECU to learn this.


What are the effects of too much water?


You can carry on increasing water to achieve MBT (Maximum Brake Torque) timing or maximum best timing and trim fuel towards 12.5:1 – some engine can run better at a leaner level. Whatever you do, don’t dump fuel and water together – a recipe for big power drop. From past publications, 40% w/f is about the limit – for road application, limited your water w/f % to below 20%. That is a danger of oil contamination.


Should alcohol or other additives be added to the injected water?

Alcohol is a good additive for WI but don’t tune the mixture as an additional fuel source. The presence of OH radicals in the mix promotes flame speed. OH radical is the very beginning of fuel/air chain reaction for combustion. 50/50 gives a good balance of flame propagation speed. I don’t know enough about higher alcohol mixture – I think you are approaching a dual fuel situation where only a very complex controller with high degree of repeatable accuracy to manage the two types of fuel flow within itself. Until where is such a system, it is better to use 100% alcohol fuel (drag and Indy) or 100% gasoline with 50/50 water/alcohol mix.


Please discuss nozzle placement? Before IC, after IC or both?
You forgot to consider the forth option– individual port injection – keep that separate for another day.
Post IC is good for worm summer but in winter there is a danger of water condensing in the IC core and the droplets become too big to be effective for even cylinder distribution. In general for road car, the jet should be placed after the IC. A small jet post IC is good for track Racing and idle cooling during staging at a drag track.

Is a re-tune really needed after installation of a water injection system?

A standard car is has the following reserved operating range:
1)Fuel: rarely used up all the spare injector capacity unless under duress (fuel dumping)
2)Ignition timing: ECU can retard and advance by listening to knock sensor. Fuel grade variation.

Since all factory cars dump fuel under WOT, knock sensor is on full alert near the maximum torque region. With water injection incorporated, under the same conditions, you can increase stock boost pressure by several pounds and instantly you will get power increase because the extra air induced will use up the "dumped fuel" for power production rather for cooling. Water will now take over the job of in-cylinder cooling.

Ignition timing need not be touched as the ECU will re-adjust the timing according the knock sensor signal. Since water is also a natural anti-detonant, the timing will be automatically set to optimum by the ECU, and will be closed to MBT (Maximum Best Timing) or "Maximum Brake Torque" timing to pump fuel for sure. I have never seen any turbo engine running on pump fuel achieving anywhere near MBT at full load. Onset of detonation always arrives before MBT. On race fuel (116 octane plus) you can continue to advance the ignition without knock until MBT is passed and the torque started to drop off.

I can conclude from the above paragraphs that water will allow you to gain power with "no cost" on economy since excessive fuel is used for power and not wasted out of the exhaust pipe. But with one proviso...

Like a remap, you must also have a "failsafe" mechanism to revert the boost pressure back to stock in the absence of water. Our basic water injection do not have an in-built diagnostic circuitry so for those who consider using the System1s, it it recommended to include the DDS2/3(Dash Display System)- -a real time water flow monitor and also have the ability to cut boost.

One more note: without a remap or a dyno session, you have to be accurate how much boost you can dial in before you arrive at a critical safe a/f ratio, relative to the amount of water injected and boost ( a a/f ratio meter will help especially it is the wideband type. In any case, I think re-map is more accurate (recommended) and dyno session is a MUST!!! (monitored by lambda probe) unless you have a long road.
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Old 04-16-2005, 06:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L

Should alcohol or other additives be added to the injected water?

Until where is such a system, it is better to use 100% alcohol fuel (drag and Indy) or 100% gasoline with 50/50 water/alcohol mix.
such a system? like this one?

http://www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm

I've been interested in alky injection for quite some time, this thread is making me consider WI or some sort of combination now. . .

Beyond a cost arguement, what should I run WI (or some mix) as opposed to straight alcohol injection?
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Old 04-16-2005, 08:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaeater69
such a system? like this one?

http://www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm

I've been interested in alky injection for quite some time, this thread is making me consider WI or some sort of combination now. . .

Beyond a cost arguement, what should I run WI (or some mix) as opposed to straight alcohol injection?
It is perfectly fine to inject 100% alcohol, it lifts your fuel octane as well as in-cylinder cooling because you can run more timing advance and better in-cylinder cooling than fuel alone (overall increase in injected volume).

I have mentioned before that you really need to have a duel-fuel controller that is capable of metering the two fuels accurately. The two fuels has completely different stoichometric and octane value. Mapping will be a nightmare. At present the SMC ramps alcohol up at a predicable rate and you must remap your gasoline to suit - at mid throttle, wide open throttle, acceleration enrichment, close loop lambda, open loop lambda, manifold pressure regulation -air temp correction, etc. Let say you can achieve all that, what would one do if you have a partially block jet, your fuel curve will immediately be all over the place.

I think you really should consider using 50/50 with SMC system until the controller is capable of mapping in 3D and all the bell and whistle mentioned above, just to be on the safe side. There is a possibility adding methanol in your fuel tank so the duel fuel controller can be eliminated. I am aware that there are a few other hurdles to overcome. I remember reading a post by John Bank in England did just that is got the best result in power.
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Old 04-16-2005, 08:42 PM   #24
Richard L
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick
Richard,
I'll have time next week to start digging into this with my car. What exactly do you want me to do/check?

I think we should try to redirect the basic WI questions over to
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/ or
http://www.waterinjection.info/

This has most basic information about water injection.
Please post to the water injection forum - I will be waiting (aquamist section please).
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Old 04-17-2005, 08:08 PM   #25
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