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Old 04-23-2015, 10:18 AM   #1
yellow97tt6spd
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1997 Supra
Millennium Yellow

Default 2jz Meth Requirements

Hello,

Figured I'd just post all my info/ questions ( now that I can).

I purchased an HFS-5 kit, back when it first came out, and am just now, finally getting around to installing it. Lol.

It's going on a 97 Supra, and I was hoping you could tell me what, if anything, I should replace with it before I even bother installing it. Most of the o-rings (on my fittings) look a bit suspect, but that's about it. Not that that really matters though, as it looks like Aquamist recommends a new sort of compression fitting now anyway. Also, I believe each nozzle base a built in check valve, something I want (had a friend hydrolic I his motor, due to the pump valve failing), and need (tank is directly above my pump, which is a foot above the intercooler bung).

I bought the car stock, in 2001, but now it has...

- SP F1 mani, SP QSV, 60mm single
- 4.5"dp, to 3x6" oval exhaust (basically a full 4"+)
- 850cc full fuel system (good for ~850whp... It's easy math in a supra)
- 264 cams
- FMIC
- VPC, SAFC II, BLITZ Power ID, Wideband, EGT

I already have two bungs welded into my intercooler piping. One just past the intercooler output, and one just prior to the throttle body... However, now I'm considering doing a direct port system (lower intake runners) for consistent cylinder flow, to be used with the bung just passed the intercooler (for initial cooling). The factory IM is known to starve #1, and force feed #6... And two folks already claim that's how/ why their meth equipped cars blew up (starved cylinder #1 at high boost).

The car only makes ~480whp (at 17psi), but I'd like the ability to be able to crank in another 15psi on 50/50 meth/water... though I only intend to run ~6+psi now (should be good for 80+whp). Others with this same setup/ turbo have made ~625whp, at 27psi, on race fuel. The real reason I need to have a buffer to be able to run more pressure is I intend to get a 6466 shortly, and that'll put out ~550whp on pump, and is possible of 900whp (at ~35psi). I'd like to have the 6466 setup running ~24psi... and making 600+whp, on meth.

I've tried looking online for exact fuel requirements/ preferred afr on meth, and cannot seem to find exactly what I'm looking for. I always run 11.5:1 on pump, and I understand that you were supposed to try and offset the minimum amount of gasoline necessary with meth (gas contains more energy), but want to know what my new target afr should be. If my understanding is correct, it goes…

- Set afr to preferred value (without meth)
- Calculate proper flow/ nozzle size for fuel requirements
- Engage methanol injection, and log the afr drop (ex... 11.5-->10.8 = 0.7 afr drop)
- Check to make sure drop was the proper amount per your meth requirements... Tuned nozzle size if needed.
- Once the correct flow/ nozzles are in place, and the drop is noted, retune your afr, via your gas tune, to the afr you'd like to run (on/ with meth). And since the wideband is reading in lambda, I should still be able to set it to 11.5:1, on meth (knowing that that means my gas tune is actually at 12.2:1... due to the 0.7 drop).
- Ensure that I have met the necessary cooling/ octane requirements for my psi/ knock suppression/ full factory timing requirements.
- Enjoy

So , what will I need?..
- What size intercooler nozzle (current, and 6466)?
- What size direct port nozzles (x6) (current, and 6466)?
- 6 bungs?
- tap (for the bungs... into aluminum)?
- 1-->6 distribution block?
- Fittings... Tank level (sight glass) (x2). Tank out. Pump in. Pump out. Flow in. Flow out. HSV in. HSV out (split output?). Distribution in (x1). Distribution out (x6)

Is it better/ preferred, to use ptfe (like an e85 fuel system) compared to the clear line shipped with the kit? Would my flow/ future requirements (800+whp/ 30psi) justify using a larger nozzle feed line (6mm vs 4mm) to the intercooler, and to the distribution block?

I already have a Mac valve waiting to be utilized (and cut all boost controller function) should the system trigger a failsafe... But that'd still have me at 14psi (WG spring pressure), and a now ~12.2:1 "pump" afr (or whatever it ends up being) mid pull!.. Yikes! Do you know if the SAFC II has a trigger input to change its map as well? Admittedly, I haven't looked yet, but plan to now.

I am sorry for all the questions, but I am super excited to finally get this thing installed! I've already made the custom 2.25 gallon SS tank, and the pump bracket (all several years ago), but these few questions/ concerns have kept me from finishing my install for close to a decade!

With Best Regards,
Brian
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Old 04-23-2015, 11:45 PM   #2
The Satch
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I have no idea if the math is the same on a 2jz, but on the ej, meth nozzle size is generally calculated as 1 extra injector. I have 1000cc injectors, and I have 1000cc of meth(20-25% of total fuel injected). You may want to double check that on a supra forum, idk if it transfers.

Additionally, I run a 12.4:1 afr. This is possible because the meth provides knock protection. Again, check that with the supra guys, but you should be able to run leaner on meth than you could on pump.

Once you verify how much meth you need, the math between cylinders for direct port is easy, and direct port is of course the preferred method.
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Old 04-26-2015, 12:18 AM   #3
yellow97tt6spd
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Join Date: Apr 2015
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Vehicle:
1997 Supra
Millennium Yellow

Default

Thanks for the reply!

Methanol is not really big in the Supra community, so there's not a whole lot of info to go off of. Also there, as with most other places I visited, the info seems to vary greatly. I believe this is partly due to folks not going through the finer details, and logic behind their numbers. Straight water, 50/50, and straight meth, all need run at different percentages (10-15%, 15-20%, and 20-25% respectively, *I believe*).

The fact that most folks I've found that run methanol also run it on a four cylinder, makes it's hard to discern what percentage is proper. Case in point, your saying that In your community its common to figure "one extra injector". On a four cylinder, that's 25%… On a Supra, it's only 17%. Also, is that at straight meth, straight water, some ratio in the middle?.. I don't know.

And please, I do not mean any disrespect, and sincerely appreciate you offering assistance, and the qualifying info contained! I just used it to show possible ambiguity, and why I'm still a little unclear for my particular setup.

With the posts online, all the info seems to be vague, overlap, or just be downright contradictory. Now depending on each authors engine size, cylinder count, pump pressure, and meth concentration... they could have all been correct. It just wasn't clear what their info meant for my situation.

Now, here's my "best gues at what I need, and is entirely the result of my interpritation of info at the Howerton Engineering website...
- I have six 850cc injectors, which means 5,100 mL total
- I intend a 50/50 mix... so I need 15-20% of my total injector flow... or 765-1,020cc
- That means six small injectors (direct port), and one large injector just passed my IC
- I have a 125psi pump, and hope to run 25psi of boost... leaving me 100psi of pressure

On the site, they showed two options for a 0.3mm nozzle... One at 63cc, one at 98cc (both measured at 125psi though). They also mentioned that flow is not linear, and that it's the "square of the function" of the pressure change. That leads me to believe that these two 0.3mm nozzle options would flow 45cc (270 total), and 69cc (414 total) respectively, at my 100 psi. As such, I intend to use the larger, 98cc nozzle (yeding a true 414cc total). Combine that with a single 1.2mm (480cc at 100psi), and I'd have 894cc total... 17.5% of my 5,100cc injector output.

If I'm not mistaken, injecting pure water would not affect my afr readings... is that correct? If so, then I should be able to calculate what the change in afr would be from adding ~9 methanol (half of my 17.5% output) into the mix. Do you know definitively, what a 9% meth addition should do to my afr? Doesn't matter too much, as I will be able to see the change... but I was curious.

I also noticed that their site mentioned A/N fittings can be utilized for any fitting in the kit. I would actually prefer this, as I have replaced some of my WG, and vacuum lines, with 1/4" -4 SS hardlines. Basically, I'd prefer everything except the "flow sensor outputs" to be hardlined. Please let me know where I could purchase the fittings.

I would prefer to use -4 SS line for most of the setup, except for the 0.3mm nozzle feeds (noted below)...

- tank out... male
- tank sight glass -upper fitting... male
- tank sight glass -lower fitting... male
- pump in... male
- pump out... male
- HSV in... male
- HSV out... male
- flow sensor in... male
- flow sensor - *dual output*... "Y" *compression* fitting (for use with nylon lines)
- 15psi check valve input... *compression* fitting (nylon fed)
- 15psi check valve out... male

- 9 @ female... sleeve/ nut combo

- 6 @ -3A/N... male (direct port nozzles)
- 6 @ -3A/N... female... sleeve/ nut combo
- 6 @ 0.3mm (98cc) standards nozzles (will be facing "up", and just past the 15psi valve)

- 1 @ 1.2mm with integrated check valve (nylon fed... and the lowest point of whole setup)

I have a few other questions about the placement of the HSV and flow sensor, as well. I know they're ideally suited for life inside the vehicles cabin. Unfortunately, my entire kit is housed within 18"s of my drivers side headlight (tank, pump, IC bung, IM)... And I was hoping to have the HSV and flow sensor, in the same area (inner front fender area).

The car is never driven in the rain, but there is always the possibility of a freak storm on a road trip. If I were to mount the HSV and flow sensor inside a water *resistant*, but *breathable* container... would that suffice? In reality, the greatest threat to them would be a car wash (and even then I'd throw a plastic bag over the container), or from them overheating.

Same goes for the pump, it's mounted to the frame rail (via a bracket), directly below where the tank sits (old battery location). I was less worried a out it, though I still plan to wrap the front/ side/ back of it with a splash shield. Heat won't be an issue here.

Also, I know that strong magnets/ motors can mess with the HSV and flow sensor, but how close can they be to the pump?.. 4"?.. 8"?.. 12? Reason I ask is the inner fendor/ sensor area isn't that big, and separating everything by much more than a true 8" could get difficult. The closer together they can be *safely*, the better.

And finally, for the hydrolock story. ETA... This failure was NOT with an Aquamist kit!.. but with a pieces together kit. I don't have all the details, and you could google the supraforums writeup, but this is what I remember...

The owner left his car at a local tuning shop over night. They were working to get his new setup going, and they ran out of time without finishing (another car had already scheduled their last hour of dyno time, I think). No big deal they said, just leave it here, and we'll start back on it first thing tomorrow. Problem is, they ended up parking it overnight on the steep ramps to their dyno.

Well, ends up the meth tank siphoned all of its fluid into his intercooler piping. The next morning the car had power, and turned over a few times, but then wouldn't crank. The guys at the shop decided it must be a bad starter, so they drifted it off the dyno, into the parking lot, and tried to "bump start" it. Supposedly this, along with the little bit of liquid that had managed to make it up into the IM, and ultimately, the engine, then caused enough force to destroy the engine.

He even admitted that it was not the methanol setup that was to blame for losing this engine, however, when combined with the fact that this was either just before, or just after he had blown up the same car... Where he believed meth *was* the cause, he divided to ditch methanol, and redo everything for e85 (or race fuel... I can't remember).

Well, I appreciate you, or anyone, reading my manifesto, and I look forward to your input, and advise!

With Best Regards,
Brian

PS... I'm technologically challenged, and don't know how to post pics, but if you would like some, I could email them to you. I have pics of my current HFS-5 kit, my custom 2.25 gallon SS tank, the pump, bracket, and fender area (and of course of the car). Thanks again!!

Last edited by yellow97tt6spd; 04-26-2015 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Failure was NOT on an Aquamist kit.
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Old 04-26-2015, 10:18 AM   #4
Aquamist
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Glad to know the engine that suffered hydrolock was not an Aquamist system.


I have a question please: What is the impedance of the fuel injectors? (0hms)
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Old 04-26-2015, 11:45 AM   #5
yellow97tt6spd
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1997 Supra
Millennium Yellow

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Thanks for the reply!.. but i have no idea.

My injectors came in my PowerHouse Racings Stage 2 Fuel System... in 2003. I know the Supra runs low impedance injectors, but I don't know what mine are. I'll call PHR tomorrow and find out.

How about the rest of my numbers?.. are they ohm dependant?

Bests,
Brian
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Old 04-26-2015, 12:47 PM   #6
Aquamist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow97tt6spd View Post
Thanks for the reply!.. but i have no idea.

My injectors came in my PowerHouse Racings Stage 2 Fuel System... in 2003. I know the Supra runs low impedance injectors, but I don't know what mine are. I'll call PHR tomorrow and find out.

How about the rest of my numbers?.. are they ohm dependant?

Bests,
Brian
The question I asked determines the rest of the discussions. The HFS-5 cannot read some low impedance injectors circuits. There are two types of low impedance driving circuits: "peak and hold" and "resistor pack".

The HFS3 can read "resistor pack" but not "peak and hold". Until we have confirmation, it make no sense to write a full page of answers to your questions. It is unusual to discuss an supra on the subaru forum.

At the time of the HFS5 offering seven years ago, we did not introduce the HFS5 to engines with low impedance injectors. The HFS5 you have, which version of the DDS4 is it? v8, v8a v9 or v10?

Please note that I am not trying to discuss your setup.
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Old 04-26-2015, 02:12 PM   #7
yellow97tt6spd
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The Supra does have a resistor pack, and I am still using it.

If/ when I ever upgrade my fuel system, I will be using high-impedance injectors (ID1700s probably), rated for e85, and a pro-efi, with flex sensor. From the sounds of things, both would be compatible with my kit.

As for my DDS*3* the manuals cover says "v8" only. Also, it's box says "Serial No. 2491"... Don't know if that helps.

So I have...

- HFS-5
- DDS3
- FiA2

Thanks!
Brian
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Old 04-27-2015, 05:07 PM   #8
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Here is a chart of latest range of nozzle, saving you writing another full page of text.

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Old 04-27-2015, 10:34 PM   #9
yellow97tt6spd
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Thanks! Looks like the 0.4mm "B" would be my best bet for the direct injection... Provided all my numbers/ theory were correct...
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Old 04-28-2015, 12:47 AM   #10
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Your numbers are pretty good.
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