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Old 04-17-2005, 08:56 PM   #26
offset
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First, thanks for jumping in Richard. I am also running a Hydra and seriously considering some WI. I have heard some people actually use washer fluid as it is a water/alcohol mix. What are your thoughts on using that?

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Old 04-18-2005, 12:00 AM   #27
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Hi I was also looking into WI on my STI with a 35R turbo, I only get 91oct here... And I want a very very safe W.I system!!! I know if your on full boost and driving hard, and the WI stops flowin b.c of blocked jet or no water the engine blows very fast like 5 seconds fast... What would be the best system to keep things safe? I have a Utec and I will have one map just for WI, And if the WI system cuts boost on the car, will that override the AVCR boost controller and the Utec Tune... I cant afford to blow a motor, and I really need WI to bring out the best in 91 tractor piss gass
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Old 04-18-2005, 05:23 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
It is perfectly fine to inject 100% alcohol, it lifts your fuel octane as well as in-cylinder cooling because you can run more timing advance and better in-cylinder cooling than fuel alone (overall increase in injected volume).

I have mentioned before that you really need to have a duel-fuel controller that is capable of metering the two fuels accurately. The two fuels has completely different stoichometric and octane value. Mapping will be a nightmare. At present the SMC ramps alcohol up at a predicable rate and you must remap your gasoline to suit - at mid throttle, wide open throttle, acceleration enrichment, close loop lambda, open loop lambda, manifold pressure regulation -air temp correction, etc. Let say you can achieve all that, what would one do if you have a partially block jet, your fuel curve will immediately be all over the place.

I think you really should consider using 50/50 with SMC system until the controller is capable of mapping in 3D and all the bell and whistle mentioned above, just to be on the safe side. There is a possibility adding methanol in your fuel tank so the duel fuel controller can be eliminated. I am aware that there are a few other hurdles to overcome. I remember reading a post by John Bank in England did just that is got the best result in power.
I would like to add to the above...

Water injection and alcohol injection requires a different strategy to your tuning package and can be summarized as follows:

Inlet air cooling:
Both does the same job but under a different temperature range due to its freezing point and boiling point (-90C to +70C for methanol) and water between 0C to 100C. You need to inject twice amount of alcohol to one part of water. If you mix the two, you get a very wide operating temperature range and less amount injected in total. Recommended.

In-cylinder cooling:
Assuming you have already running an ideal a/f ratio of 12.5:1 (in general), neither liquid will be needed as extra fuel (alcohol). In this case, you need to consider water injection is better to control your peak combustion temperature spikes - latent heat is two times higher than alcohol. In order to have the same effect, you need a system that will flow twice as much with methanol and four times as much with isopropyl.

latent heat value by mass, injected quantity by volume (...):
Water ... 2256kJ/kg (1)
Methanol ... 1109kJ/kg (x2.53)
Ethanol ... 904kJ/kg (x3.10)
Isopropyl ... 665kJ/kg (x4.24)
(Gasoline) ... 350kJ/kg (x8)


From the above figures, you can see how much more alcohol is required to be onboard and the pumping system has to be capable of flowing much higher than just injecting water.

Octane value and knock resistance:
This is the stage of the comparison where water and alcohol injection parts company. Water does not have octane value or can be regarded as infinite since it will not ignite under the greatest pressure and temperature. Knock prevention works completely different to alcohol. Alcohol is octane rated so if alcohol is used a a fuel additive, so your fuel's octane is directly proportional to the amount of alcohol injected. I don't think I have the required knowledge to tabulate a comparison of the two concept.

My conclusion:
Water injection and alcohol injection is totally different when part of the alcohol is used as a fuel supplement and results should not be compared. It is like comparing a gasoline fuelled engine and alcohol fuelled engine.

Last edited by Richard L; 04-18-2005 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 04-18-2005, 12:46 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick
Richard,
I have one of your Aquamist 3D systems installed into my STI, but cannot get it to work with my EM. I've tested the electrical setup with the stock ECU in place and it works fine, but when I plug my Hydra (standalone EMS) into the harness, it will not start the car until the fuel injector wire tap going to the FIA2 is unplugged.

Is there anything you can think of why this would either be shorting the fuel injector circuit to the Hydra, or if it is due to the Hydra being driven by sequential injection as opposed to the stock batch injection? I am really stumped with this and don't even know any other ways to approach it.

I know the Hydra "can" control the HSV directly, but there is a huge amount of work and development in doing so (creating 3d map, figuring out PWM settings, calibrating flow, etc) that I just don't feel like getting into. I rather not use my car as a test bed either for something so important until someone else has paved the way.

Right now I think maybe one of the best ways to overcome this mightbe to setup a 5th injector in the hydra, but run it directly into the FIA2. Could you please provide some insight?

Bill
Hey Bill,
I know that Phil from Element Tuning has been in touch with Aquamist. From what I understand, they are developing a system so that the Hydra and the Aquamist system can talk nicely to each other. I can't say anything more since I'm not sure what Phil wanted released and what he did not. e-mail him though and I'm sure he can fill you in
Take care,
Julian (Sabre)
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Old 04-18-2005, 06:39 PM   #30
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I am plagued by our California 91 octane fuel and therefore my custom tuning came short for about 20 wHP from what I was expecting. In other states gaining the extra 20 ponies is a piece of cake since they use 93 or 94 octane. Now please recap for the newbies on WI please (including me), for those of us with a reflash and nothing else I believe you recommended the System 1s paired with the DDS module. Now you mentioned earlier that this system is more targeted as a fail-safe kit more than power increase kit. By keeping the critical areas safe (safeer!) from detonation my tuner should be able to drive a bit more aggresive timing and a bit leaner mixture. Since the stock ECU cannot communicate with the WI you suggested to use the DDS module to cut boost at a predeterminated setting as a failsafe measurement against water depletion. Give us a bit more details on this boost cut failsafe feature, would it just cut boost or can it actually lower peak boost by a number of units of boost we choose? What oher failsafe methods can we acomplish with this DDS2 module and a reflashed ECU? Would it be able to detect low water level conditions or only when it completely runs out of liquid? Would the basic kit also detect a plugged filter or just plain jet failure? Do you think this kit can gain the 20 wHP extra I am looking for without having to rely on higher octane gas? Thanks for the help.
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Old 04-18-2005, 07:31 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by member7107
Would it be possible to run a smaller jet, ie lower percent injection rate, on a car not tuned to use WI? I am currently running a vf34,sti pinks, catless system, hyperflow v2 tmic and cobb engine managment. I do not plan on getting the tunre, which would allow the optimazation of WI, but would like to use it non the less. Thanks
Sorry, I almost missed your post.

I have heard on cobb system many time on this board and wondering if you can tell me what parameter are you able to alter?

Can you trim fuel, ignition timing and boost? - does the Cobb system retains the factory knock-retard ability?

I am sorry for all those questions - I would very much like to give you an accurate answer and also at the same time learn about the Cobb system.

Assuming you can trim fuel and ignition, I am sure WI will have a positive effect even just run an a/f ratio approaching 12.5:1 plus a degree or two on the timing. As you are approaching a more aggreesive tune and may be even increasing the boost - you must incorporate a failsafe mechanism.
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Old 04-18-2005, 07:56 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offset
First, thanks for jumping in Richard. I am also running a Hydra and seriously considering some WI. I have heard some people actually use washer fluid as it is a water/alcohol mix. What are your thoughts on using that?

offset

Offset,

It is always nice to talk to someone who is interested in the WI concept.

Hydra is a standalone system capable of virtually anything. The nicest part is its ability to integrate and communicate with our water injection system. It offers fuel and map trim automatically as well as a 3D water injection map- as far as I am concerned - it is the first system I am able to work with at the deepest level with full technical support from Phil.

Water fluid contain alcohol but I can only recommend using the type that uses methanol - the aquamist pump currently work with upto 50% of methanol, 25% isopropyl and 5% of Ethanol (Denaturted alcohol). Ww are looking into putting Teflon seals in the very near future. There are already a few Teflon sealed pump on field test - so far result is very encouraging - it will even tolerate Nitromethane.

The biggest problem associated with screen washer fluid is the Glyco, although small in percentage, it will clog up your nozzle it is allowed to settle at the bottom of the washer tank due to weeks of non-usage. If you use your car every day, it becomes a lesser of a problem.

Last edited by Richard L; 04-19-2005 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 04-18-2005, 09:40 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_Guy04
Hi I was also looking into WI on my STI with a 35R turbo, I only get 91oct here... And I want a very very safe W.I system!!! I know if your on full boost and driving hard, and the WI stops flowin b.c of blocked jet or no water the engine blows very fast like 5 seconds fast... What would be the best system to keep things safe? I have a Utec and I will have one map just for WI, And if the WI system cuts boost on the car, will that override the AVCR boost controller and the Utec Tune... I cant afford to blow a motor, and I really need WI to bring out the best in 91 tractor piss gass
bumpers
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Old 04-18-2005, 11:38 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
Hydra is a standalone system capable of virtually anything. The nicest part is its ability to integrate and communicate with our water injection system. Ot offers fuel and map trim automatically as well as a 3D water injection map- as far as I am concerned - it is the first system I am able to work with at the deepest level with full technical support from Phil.
It is great to hear that you and Phil seem to be working together to some extent. If you come out with a package designed to work with the Hydra along with Phil making up some basic maps for it you can definately put me down for a kit (especially if you get to including some upgraded parts that include teflon).

offset
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:18 AM   #35
Richard L
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_Guy04
Hi I was also looking into WI on my STI with a 35R turbo, I only get 91oct here... And I want a very very safe W.I system!!! I know if your on full boost and driving hard, and the WI stops flowin b.c of blocked jet or no water the engine blows very fast like 5 seconds fast... What would be the best system to keep things safe? I have a Utec and I will have one map just for WI, And if the WI system cuts boost on the car, will that override the AVCR boost controller and the Utec Tune... I cant afford to blow a motor, and I really need WI to bring out the best in 91 tractor piss gass
You have two chioces of kits -
System1s + DDS3:
Activate the 1s just before the maximum torque region and the DDS3 set to detect a "preset" flow range - only opon detection of "correct amount" of flow, the boost can be lifted otherwise it will just run stock wastegate setting. The DDS3 has other output such as "map switch", "priming pump" and water level sensor. It is a very safe option.




System2d
This system will give you a blanket coverage on your "91 tractor piss gass", laced with a small percentage of water, act as knock suppressant and in-cylinder coolant. sometime tuning is not necessary becuase the factory ECU will notice the change in knock level and advance ignition accordingly.

The power obtainable with Water Injection will be subject to "how willing" your tuner is prepared to replace "rich mixture" with "water" - It is not just buying a water injection system, but consider the tuning company as a part of the package. I have seen "power loss", "no power change" to "power gain" over the years.

Here is an real-life example of how results can differ between a "non interested" tuner and an "interested" one.


If any one wants to read those threads, you should go to:
(it is not a subaru but nevertheless a fine example)

Thread 1 - Disappointed results:
http://www.fccuk.org/ubbthreads/show...page=15#361613

Thread 2 - Water injection tuning tips:
http://www.fccuk.org/ubbthreads/show...&page=4#362474

Thread 3 - Positive water injection tune results (same boost):
http://www.fccuk.org/ubbthreads/show...&page=2#405977



I am sorry that there are so many pages to go through but if anyone want to know why results differ by so much if some care were taken, water injection can be a very good tool for safe power.

Last edited by Richard L; 04-19-2005 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 04-19-2005, 07:47 AM   #36
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i have ordered a 2d system to run on my 02 Subaru Impreza WRX with a full stage 4 kit.

what is the best way to tap the injector pulse line on the ecu? (most electrically safe)
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:33 PM   #37
Richard L
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zacek
I am plagued by our California 91 octane fuel and therefore my custom tuning came short for about 20 wHP from what I was expecting. In other states gaining the extra 20 ponies is a piece of cake since they use 93 or 94 octane. Now please recap for the newbies on WI please (including me), for those of us with a reflash and nothing else I believe you recommended the System 1s paired with the DDS module. Now you mentioned earlier that this system is more targeted as a fail-safe kit more than power increase kit. By keeping the critical areas safe (safeer!) from detonation my tuner should be able to drive a bit more aggresive timing and a bit leaner mixture. Since the stock ECU cannot communicate with the WI you suggested to use the DDS module to cut boost at a predeterminated setting as a failsafe measurement against water depletion. Give us a bit more details on this boost cut failsafe feature, would it just cut boost or can it actually lower peak boost by a number of units of boost we choose? What oher failsafe methods can we acomplish with this DDS2 module and a reflashed ECU? Would it be able to detect low water level conditions or only when it completely runs out of liquid? Would the basic kit also detect a plugged filter or just plain jet failure? Do you think this kit can gain the 20 wHP extra I am looking for without having to rely on higher octane gas? Thanks for the help.

zacek,

If your power is limited by fuel grade, there is a good chance that you can restore the 20whp with water injection, As I am not sure how the 20whp was lost, was it due to "timing", "too rich a/f ratio" or have to "lowe boost" ?

Your description of the DDS3 is very accurate. To clarify matters, I have posted the following wiring diagram and hope you are able to see how the whole thing works with the 1s system - with the DDS3/1s combination, you will be able to tune with safety - You tuner will feel happier too.





The following DDS3/1s interface wiring diagram is centered on a Junction box:




As you can see the DDS3 is able to detect a "flow range window" set by the user - anything outside that window will drop boost. It is supplied with a tank level sensor (When triggered, it will disable "high boost" and "water pump" from running dry).

There are two ways you can control boost:

1) A relay contact disconnects the factory boost valve so the boost will drop back to wastergate setting (whatever that is) - this output can also interface with other EBC to set high or low boost (no water). Model DDS3

2) DDS3 will energise a bleed valve allowing you to bleed air out of the boost hose thus lifting boost on top of the original setting. Requires some experiment of the two reatrictor orifices (pill). Model DDS3T

If you require more information, please download the complete manual from here.

Last edited by Richard L; 04-19-2005 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 04-19-2005, 06:57 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runner19
i have ordered a 2d system to run on my 02 Subaru Impreza WRX with a full stage 4 kit.

what is the best way to tap the injector pulse line on the ecu? (most electrically safe)
I would tap the wire in the engine bay. I think that wiring harness is cheaper and easier to replace than the ECU side of things if it all goes bad. Look for the red wire off of the one of the injector clips. Do not tap into any wire with white in it.
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Old 04-19-2005, 08:35 PM   #39
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subscribe...
(thinking of this on my wagon )

i had a friend that ran an auqamist on a 93 Range Rover LWB that he installed a supercharger on. worked great!!! he was using washer fluid.
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Old 04-20-2005, 05:02 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaxrex
I would tap the wire in the engine bay. I think that wiring harness is cheaper and easier to replace than the ECU side of things if it all goes bad. Look for the red wire off of the one of the injector clips. Do not tap into any wire with white in it.
Thank you Zaxrex for helping - I don't have a Subaru wiring diagram on file.
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Old 04-20-2005, 08:33 PM   #41
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How much is the 2D system with the DDS2 gauge? and will the DDS2 gauge fit into a 60mm gauge pod?
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Old 04-20-2005, 11:50 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
Thank you Zaxrex for helping - I don't have a Subaru wiring diagram on file.
No problem. You have helped me out over the phone plenty before. I thank you for that.

I also have to give props out to Brad at Kansas City Saab. He helped walk me through application of the 2d when it came out, and I didn't even buy the kit from him.
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Old 04-21-2005, 12:19 AM   #43
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I've heard not to use washer fluid because it will clog the jets. Any truth to this?
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Old 04-21-2005, 12:44 AM   #44
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Yes, it happened to me.
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Old 04-23-2005, 06:11 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_Guy04
How much is the 2D system with the DDS2 gauge? and will the DDS2 gauge fit into a 60mm gauge pod?
I am not sure the if the 2d is bundled with the DDS2 in the US, need to check it here.

The DDS2 is not circular but the DDS3 is, at 52mm. How popular is the 60mm gauge format? we can bring out a 60mm gauge if there is enough demand. Is it only applied to Subarus?

Last edited by Richard L; 04-24-2005 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 04-23-2005, 08:06 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by silver arrow
I've heard not to use washer fluid because it will clog the jets. Any truth to this?
Windscreen washer fluid basically contains 50% water and 50% alcohol (contentrated type). Glyco, coloring and detergent is then added.

Glyco is agent used to increase the surface tension of the mixture (prevent smearing). It is a sticky gel-like substance and if allowed to separate, say over period of a few week of non usage, it settles to the bottom of the tank and gets sucked into the aqaumist system and the inline filter is the first item being clogged - some part of those gel will get past the filter eventually get to the jet and cause clogging .

It is advisable to check your jet frequently. If your car is used daily, and fresh supply of washer fluid is added frequently, the clogging is not too much of an issue.
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Old 04-24-2005, 01:23 AM   #47
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No. I believe 60 mm could be considered the "standard" size of many aftermarket Japanese gauges and gauge pods.
They seem to be less commonly used in European cars.
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Old 04-24-2005, 02:28 AM   #48
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Does Aquamist make longer nozzel then the standard size currently offered? I use adapter to mount the water nozzel and because the nozzel is too short, the fan patern of the water some time hits the wall of the adapter, preventing good water mist. I think that many peple would also need longer nozzel because it make mounting easier.
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Old 04-24-2005, 03:34 AM   #49
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I have a bit of experience with the basic unit and a D2 on my turbo Matrix. Alot of dyno time was used to learn and tune but in the end, 12-13 PSI on a stock tiny rod 1.8 with 91 octane, 10% Toluene in the fuel, 50/50 meth/water mix, D2 system worked out very well for me. It even could of been a bit of overkill and possibly less power than possible running the toluene but 250WHP, 230 torque, power from 2.8k to 6.4(redline) held up really well. I only drove the car to a few meets, the rest of the miles were to autocrosses or drag races and some fun on the way, in reality the care saw some very extreme duty. The only problem I ever had was a boost control failure resulting in a bit of looseness around two rod caps, that was when I hit 15PSI but there was no audible knock at all.

I had a 5th injector system with a stock ECU and the D2 was activated by the fuel injector pulse, metered according to it. Before I had the D2 I did have quite a few big backfires when on and off the throttle during certain autox sessions. After I setup the D2 all was well

I am a bit worn out and rambling here, bottom line though is I plan to have a system in my current project car

Rick
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Old 04-24-2005, 06:36 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXBob
Does Aquamist make longer nozzel then the standard size currently offered? I use adapter to mount the water nozzel and because the nozzel is too short, the fan patern of the water some time hits the wall of the adapter, preventing good water mist. I think that many peple would also need longer nozzel because it make mounting easier.

It is difficult to accomendate the vast range of inlet tract hardware thinkness. The easiest solution is put a chemfer on the drilled hole.

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