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Old 05-02-2005, 11:47 AM   #76
Davenow
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Be calm, but VERY firm. Tell them you are no longer interested in the car, and that you want to know how you get your money back. They WILL try to stop you, they will offer "a really great deal" on another used car, they will offer "some great pricing" on a new car, and they may even be willing to go lower on the disaster car.
Just keep saying no. Tell them that honestly at this point you wouldnt take the car for free, and that after dropping the ball and letting you travel that distance for nothing, you will not be buying a car from them at any point, for any price.
Dont yell if you dont have to, and dont toss out the lawyer word until you REALLY have no choice.
In the end it may take a letter from a lawyer, but that will cost you about $150 or so, but it will be enough to get the money back as they wont want to deal with a legal fight.
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:11 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow
...Tell them you are no longer interested in the car, and that you want to know how you get your money back. ...
Although I agree with the rest of Davenow's advice, I worry about this part. If I were the dealer, I'd reply "Whether you are interested in the car or not doesn't affect me. You bought the car."
Instead, I would point out that the car is not as advertised (damage worse, dealer unable to provide receipts for repair work, etc), and thus the deal is broken. Point out that you are entitled to your money back. Point out the time/money you have spent on this, and offer the following deal: if they provide you with cash/valid cashier's check/wire transfer for the full amount of money you gave them, you will agree not to seek any additional monetary compensation from them. If you get a cashier's check, go down to their bank with them and cash it immediately to make sure it's good. Then take the cash over to a local branch of your bank and deposit it. If they do a wire transfer, wait until your bank verifies it before signing anything.
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:13 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armand1
Although I agree with the rest of Davenow's advice, I worry about this part. If I were the dealer, I'd reply "Whether you are interested in the car or not doesn't affect me. You bought the car."
Instead, I would point out that the car is not as advertised (damage worse, dealer unable to provide receipts for repair work, etc), and thus the deal is broken. Point out that you are entitled to your money back. Point out the time/money you have spent on this, and offer the following deal: if they provide you with cash/valid cashier's check/wire transfer for the full amount of money you gave them, you will agree not to seek any additional monetary compensation from them. If you get a cashier's check, go down to their bank with them and cash it immediately to make sure it's good. Then take the cash over to a local branch of your bank and deposit it. If they do a wire transfer, wait until your bank verifies it before signing anything.
But he DIDNT buy the car. No paperwork signed=no legal deal. If the dealer pulls that attitude, then play the lawyer card. They WILL back down.
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:51 AM   #79
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only one problem dave...in MOSt states, verbal contracts are binding in a court of law. just saying he would buy it can infer that the deal is done. i would make sure to go the route of being friendly but assertive in the fact that the details were not as advertised, the "bait and switch" phrase may be handy, depending on how you use it...don't just throw it out first, unless they offer a different car for more money...and make it VERY clear that you are not interested in dealing with them for ANY other vehicles.

once you get all that out of the way, then i would say check your state and their state's codes on binding contracts too boot...see where verbal agreements stand in those states. make SURE you speak to a manager too, not just the schmucky sales guy. they are not going to wanna give up the sale, especially since they have money in hand, but it is still your money until proven otherwise.

yes, make sure everything clears before signing anything or cash the check at their bank and deposit cash into yours...that way if there are any problems it is on them at their own banking establishment

sorry to hear things went to hell in a handbasket on ya, but this is one of those "learning experiences" you spoke of before...remember? get this straight, keep your eyes open for a good, clean deal and you'll have a bad experiece behind you that you can work with from now on.

hope you keep on the lookout for a subaru...you seem to have an excited personality. these are wonderfully fun cars to learn and work on
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:54 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krayge
only one problem dave...in MOSt states, verbal contracts are binding in a court of law. just saying he would buy it can infer that the deal is done. i would make sure to go the route of being friendly but assertive in the fact that the details were not as advertised, the "bait and switch" phrase may be handy, depending on how you use it...don't just throw it out first, unless they offer a different car for more money...and make it VERY clear that you are not interested in dealing with them for ANY other vehicles.

I am betting his dealer doesnt know that. No dealer I have worked for would have known that. They always push the sales guys to get things signed.

In any case I am betting he wont have TOO MUCH trouble getting the money back, although I am sure there will be some resistance.

If he just makes himself a total nightmare A hole to them, they will very likely give him his money back just to be rid of him. I have seen that tactic work a TON of times. It should be the last resort, but it is usually effective
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Old 05-03-2005, 02:27 PM   #81
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Well, I left a msg for the general manager to get back to me this morning, which he didn't. I called up a few minutes ago and spoke to the salesman I've been dealing with and I noted all of the issues you guys recommended above.

He told me that they have "no return policy" so I can either get it now or have them do the rest of the paperwork for me and then pick it up. I decdided at that point to stop arguing with him and told him to have whoever's in charge call me back.

I'm not surprised that he turned me down flat, he feels as though the reach around they've given me thus far is acceptible customer service. I'm probably going to try and call the Dept of Consumer affairs in Pennsylvania, the BBB and the Attorney General to get some more ammunition, and I'm not afraid of getting ahold of a lawyer to write some vaguely threatening letter.

I'm planning on calmly stating again all the facts mentioned above, but I'm a little resigned to have to set out the legal hounds in this case. They seem to think that the way they've handled this is completely acceptable.

I just can't believe that they're giving me this much trouble after doing NO work for me. They haven't gotten any titling information accomplish in my name, and didn't even have any of the paperwork ready after I drove down almost TWO hours. He says he was "getting it together" when I got there, but I can't believe having a day and a half notice wasn't enough to have it ready when I got there.

Anyway, enough blabbering. Anyone know of a good lawyers in north NJ? I have a few in mind, but any recommendations are always helpful.
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Old 05-03-2005, 02:39 PM   #82
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Check the laws in PA. Their "no return" policy may be illegal. In MA there is a law that you have 3 days to back out AFTER taking delivery. I dont know what the milage/condition stipulations are, I am sure there are some, but either way, its the law. Not that any dealer would ever tell you that.


Not to mention that since they havent even produced a saleable car, how can you return something you havent yet taken possesion of???
The salesguy knows dick, talk to management. Tell them you are going to the BBB and consumer protection people, and that you have no problem bringing a lawyer into the picture.
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Old 05-03-2005, 03:03 PM   #83
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I'm looking into the consumer protection laws at the moment, but sorting through different agencies and phone numbers is a bit cumbersome. I've already spoken to the BBB for the Philadelphia region and filed a complaint, but they said it'd be around 30 days until that sees out any fruit. I'll still mention it (along with the other points) whenever the GM gets back to me.

The part about a saleable car is spot on. I have no idea why they keep saying 'no return' when I haven't even taken posession, unless he just doesn't want me to back out and is playing tough.
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Old 05-03-2005, 03:15 PM   #84
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sounds like plain old panicking on their part. You called their bluff now they are trying to bully you around.

stay tough and keep us updated.
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Old 05-03-2005, 03:39 PM   #85
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I spoke with a completely unfriendly woman at the Attorney General's office in PA, and she directed me towards an online complaint form. Unfortunately, that takes at least 15 business days to get moving so I think I'll wait till I speak with the GM before filing that complaint.

It looks like I'll have a bit of a wait for either of the protection agencies to spring into (in)action. I'll be making a few phone calls to laywers in my area.
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Old 05-03-2005, 04:47 PM   #86
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without pointing out that many people in this thread told you to run away (oops)...I must say that unless you've been delivered a vehicle, or have it in your possession now, you have every right to get your money back. The only thing worse than giving them your money at this point, would be letting them keep it.

Verbal contracts heh.....who's burden is it to prove that such an agreement was made? If there have been no papers signed...then I dont see what legal leg they would have to stand on.

That begs the question....you DID get a receipt for the money you gave them, right?
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Old 05-03-2005, 05:36 PM   #87
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I did get a receipt, yes. And no, no papers have been signed. I'm going to go ahead and file a compaint with the AG's office in Pennyslvania.

Krayge : Don't worry, if this nightmare has given me anything, it's an even more ardent desire for a WRX. Getting one after all this pain and struggle will make the driving experience even sweeter than normal.

What I just cannot get over in this situation is the fact that they have done NOTHING for me thus far in this deal. No titling work, transportation, or anything. Hell, the've never even CALLED me back in the 3 weeks we've dealt with each other.

I'm just assuming that they're putting up this fight to hopefully save the sale and will back down once properly prodded.
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Old 05-03-2005, 06:10 PM   #88
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Just a devil's advocate note on the whole "verbal contract" issue. If I were the dealer, I would argue that you *have* bought the car, and would use your *payment in full* as evidence for that. Now, I know you didn't consider it payment in full, but I think most third parties (e.g. judge/jury) would have a hard time believing someone would transfer the entire price of a car as just a refundable deposit.
You need a lawyer *local to you* NOW (it's too difficult to deal with a lawyer over a major issue like this at a distance). You may also need a lawyer local to the dealer. STOP trying to communicate by telephone -- that doesn't leave a paper trail. Use only fax/USPS/etc. If you have to speak with someone at the dealership, drive down and do it face-to-face and take notes; I know it's a long way away, but you won't get *anything* accomplished over the telepone. Have your lawyer send an official demand letter. The more you try to deal with this yourself w/o success, the more encouragement the dealer gets.
Quote:
I just can't believe that they're giving me this much trouble after doing NO work for me. They haven't gotten any titling information accomplish in my name, and didn't even have any of the paperwork ready after I drove down almost TWO hours. He says he was "getting it together" when I got there, but I can't believe having a day and a half notice wasn't enough to have it ready when I got there.
This is part of your "learning experience" -- there are many untrustworthy people in the world, and dealing with larger sums of money doesn't improve your odds. This is why many people will often pass up the absolute cheapest price in order to deal with a seller who is known to be trustworthy.
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Old 05-03-2005, 06:13 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intransit
...I'm just assuming that they're putting up this fight to hopefully save the sale and will back down once properly prodded.
Don't be a chump. You can always hope for a happy ending, but everything in the dealership's past behavior points the other way.
Rent some lawyer ammo and start fighting without your hand tied behind your back.
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Old 05-03-2005, 06:36 PM   #90
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I have a couple of lawyers in mind that I'm going to call tomorrow. I tried calling once again for the GM to try and figure things out, but no one's picking up and I'll go the written route from here.

I am NOT looking forward to any of this. Beyond finally speaking to the GM I can't imagine any need to speak face to face with anyone at the dealership, so I'll just have to wait for the ponderously slow mail to make it's way.

Hopefully whomever I speak with tomorrow will give me a clearer picture of my options and a reasonable price for accomplishing my goals.
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Old 05-03-2005, 07:47 PM   #91
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Question: Should I send the following email as preparation for making my complaints to the BBB and consumer protection agencies along with contacting a lawyer?

The email is as follows. Suggestions are welcome.

To Whom it May Concern:

Feretti Motors
1.215.975.0132
Huntingdon Valley, PA

I have been trying to get in touch with Mr. Steve Mays, who I assume is the general manager of Feretti Motors. I spoke with Carol yesterday and Serg today who both assured me that he would return my phone calls. He has not.

As I feel that I have been more than reasonable and patient in dealing with this car, I am currently informing you in writing that I am no longer interested in the silver Subaru WRX. I have signed no contract, and taken posession of no car. I was misled about the timeframe of this car's availability and condition. I would also be more than willing to provide a multitude of reasons for my backing out of this deal.

Because of my complete lack of success dealing with this over the phone, if I am not contacted early tomorrow morning I will be filing written complains with the following:

Bureau of Consumer Protection
Pennsylvania Office of Attorney General
4th Floor Strawberry Square
Harrisburg, PA 17120
Phone: 717-787-9707
Fax: 717-787-1190

BBB of Metro Washington DC and Eastern Pennsylvania
WWW: http://www.easternpa.bbb.org
Email: info@mybbb.org
Phone: (215)985-9313
Fax: (215)893-9312
1608 Walnut Street, Ste. 600
Philadelphia, PA 19103 -0297

I will also be contacting my lawyer to seek legal recourse if these problems are not addressed immediately. I hope that these steps do not need to be taken, as no actual work has been done for me as you've only had the title in your name since Friday, April 29th. I would appreciate you saving us both time and refund my money.

Thank you,
Jesse
XXX-XXX-XXXX
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:21 PM   #92
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If you decide to send this email, I would change the last sentence in the second paragraph from:
Quote:
Originally Posted by intransit
I would also be more than willing to provide a multitude of reasons for my backing out of this deal.
To something like:
Quote:
It has been made abundantly clear that you can not or are not willing to deliver the car as promised. In light of your inability to deliver the car I expect a full refund immidiately.
Of course you may want to talk to a lawyer before sending anything to them.
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Old 05-04-2005, 01:01 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWake
...
Of course you may want to talk to a lawyer before sending anything to them.
Not "you may want to", you MUST ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Old 05-04-2005, 01:12 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armand1
Not "you may want to", you MUST ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Even if I'm just sending the above email as a last ditch effort at negotiation? I'll hold off for now, but I thought it might be worth the parting mention of the BBB and consumer protection agency, along with another offer of resolution.

Armand1, what's wrong with sending them an update such as this through email? Unforunately (as you might be able to tell) I'm fairly new to this game.
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:35 AM   #95
Mike Wevrick
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You keep saying "KBB value is over 20K." That is unrealistically high; there are lots of similar used WRXs selling for way below that.

As for the flooded car itself, diagnosing and fixing electrical problems is not like changing oil. It's a massive pain in the butt. I'd rather buy a higher-mileage car for the same money.
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:51 AM   #96
Mike Wevrick
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oops, sorry, never mind the above. I posted before reading the 2nd page.

Anyway, valuable lesson learned I hope: never give anyone more than a small deposit on a purchase until the item is actually delivered and verified to be as promised. Once they have your money they have very little incentve to do anything to help you.
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:52 AM   #97
intransit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick
You keep saying "KBB value is over 20K." That is unrealistically high; there are lots of similar used WRXs selling for way below that.

As for the flooded car itself, diagnosing and fixing electrical problems is not like changing oil. It's a massive pain in the butt. I'd rather buy a higher-mileage car for the same money.
A bit late to the game, Mike

EDIT-- Stealthposted!

Last edited by intransit; 05-04-2005 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 05-04-2005, 11:03 AM   #98
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Talk to your lawyer.
One wrong word in that email could screw you.

Call your lawyer TODAY. Find out how he/she thinks you should move forward on this.

In any case, use the threat of BBB and the consumer protection people if they dont refund you the money, then once you get it back, file the complaints ANYWAY. You need to do this to prevent them, or at least help prevent them, from doing the exact same thing to another customer.

The mere fact that a new car dealer would even THINK about keeping a flood car in its inventory speaks worlds about how much of a crap dealership they are. No well run dealership would do anything with that car but send it straight to auction for some shady corner lot dealer to sell.
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Old 05-04-2005, 11:17 AM   #99
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I'm waiting callbacks from two lawyers who are family associated. If they're not available I'll start looking for someone in the yellowpages. Since I've had so little luck with phone conversations, it's really difficult not to send the above email in hopes of some sort of resolution.

If you say it's a bad idea however, I'll hold off. Out of curiousity, why? As far as the BBB and CP people, I filed complaints with both yesterday. I'm even considering emailing the security center of Ebay and telling them how the dealer offered to complete the deal outside of the auction they were offering.

I just want to be a general pain in the ass. And the GM still hasn't returned my phone call. I left a message with the secretary on Monday, and the sales associate on Tuesday.

All signs point towards things getting lawyerlicious. Hopefully I'll be able to get in touch with at least one of the two my family's a little familiar with today. This really makes going about my day in a normal unconcerned fashion a bit difficult.
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Old 05-04-2005, 02:22 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intransit
... Since I've had so little luck with phone conversations, it's really difficult not to send the above email in hopes of some sort of resolution.

If you say it's a bad idea however, I'll hold off. Out of curiousity, why? ...
It's much easier to take back the stupid things you *didn't* do...
I'm not certain it's a bad idea, but then, *I'm not a lawyer*.
You think it can't hurt, but then, *you're not a lawyer*.
I am 100% sure that doing *nothing* for a day or two until you talk to a lawyer won't make things any worse for you.

Look, I know you feel the need to be doing *something* about the situation, but that's often not the best option. Look back at the whole history of this thread. You are consistently assuming/hoping for the best, and IMHO not planning for what to do to deal with/prevent the worst.
No matter what we say here in internetland, I think you're on very shaky ground right now. I think the dealer can make a reasonable case with some supporting evidence that you made a verbal agreement to buy the car. He has your money. You have nothing. He has been in business for a while, so presumably has some idea what the law says. You have no idea. Emails and phone messages are easy to ignore. Requests from someone who has already paid you in full are easy to ignore. If BBB complaints and complaints to the AG really meant anything, you (and people in general) would have checked first to find out the dealer's track record at those agencies. Thus, I don't think you have much leverage on your own.
This isn't a little matter that can be easily cleared up on your own; be patient and wait until you have an expert on your side. If you still feel the need to be doing something, start writing down what assertations & promises were made by the dealership, when they were made, by whom, etc. A key part of your case may very well be whether the dealership was to sell you a car w/all documentation for title "cleanup" or whether the title "cleanup" part was something you assumed could be done on your own, and the dealership was just selling you the car as-is.
BTW, not trying to be harsh here, just pointing out that the time to start learning from this experience is now.
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