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Old 04-16-2005, 11:16 AM   #1
Optimus Prime
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Default OBDII Simulator?

Yes, that is not supposed to be O2 simulator.

My question is, with the emergence of affordable engine management systems (AEM, Hydra) that work well, but remove (or disable) your OBDII port. How come no one has came out with an OBDII simulator. I'm sure many cars with stand alones would pass emissions testing, but because they don't have OBDII diagnostics, they would fail in many states.

I'm surprised no one has a device that can plug into the OBDII tester and provide the information the diagnostic computer is looking for. I know there are devices that can go between the two interfaces and "see" what is going on communication wise. You could find out how many times and what responses are needed from your stock ECU when the emissions machine polls your stock ECU for information. If you could make a device that would respond to the emission testing machine just like the OBDII port does, then you could pass. You could even backup your OEM ECU information (especially the serial number) so the OBDII testing machine really thinks it is your cars computer (even down to the serial number) and not a simulator.

Does anyone have anything like this in development?
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Old 04-16-2005, 11:56 AM   #2
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I would be pretty interested in this as well.

It's not nearly as simple implementing such a hack as you might think. I've read the SAE documents on the OBD communication standard. The feds wanted the OBD2 standard to be fairly robust and somewhat secure to prevent people from doing just this.
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Old 04-16-2005, 12:48 PM   #3
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Ohhh - tricky!

(I can imagine CARB lawyers salivating at the lawsuit on this one.)
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Old 04-16-2005, 12:59 PM   #4
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Hopefully before 2010 someone will develop something like this so I dont have to pull the standalone to do emissions then
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Old 04-16-2005, 01:24 PM   #5
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Not likely to happen for the reasons no-coast pointed out above.
The best OBDII simulator is a functioning factory ECU. A substitute is not coming any time soon.
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Old 04-16-2005, 01:53 PM   #6
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I am familiar with serial protocols for other types of interfaces and I don't think this is as difficult as people are thinking. I doubt there is even a secure protocol used for communications. The OBDII systems is polling for certain values...I doubt there are random checks either. It is probably just:

OBDII Checker: Present these values:
Stock ECU: Ok, here you go

or in the other case:

OBDII Checker: Present value A:
Stock ECU: Ok, here you go
OBDII Checker: Present value B:
Stock ECU: Ok, here you go
OBDII Checker: Present value C:
Stock ECU: Ok, here you go

In either case if the computer fails to present the value probably has a tamper setting although it would probably repoll it thinking communication failure and timeout. I suspect that there is actually an interface in the stock ECU that stores the values, because no way do car manufacturers store the same values in the exact same registers, so I don't think this is a hardware lookup. There should be some embedded driver in the stock ECU for OBDII interface and emulating that shouldn't be impossible. And it could be software base with a serial interface.

This is probably illegal, but it is the modern equivalent of a shop putting another car on the dyno instead of your so you could pass...anyways how many people drive without a cat on this forum as well.
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Old 04-16-2005, 02:01 PM   #7
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I doubt any large company would come up with something like this but It would not supprise me to see someone figure it out and post plans online for others to make themselves.
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Old 04-16-2005, 03:59 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snwman
I doubt any large company would come up with something like this but It would not supprise me to see someone figure it out and post plans online for others to make themselves.
I was thinking of people like Element Tuning. I think a lot of people would jump to Hydra if they new they could pass emissions.
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Old 04-16-2005, 04:00 PM   #9
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....google it and see what you get
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Old 04-16-2005, 08:10 PM   #10
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Go to openecu.org and look around. The project is about open source EM, but there is a lot of knowledge there. Should be easy to do. You just have to simulate the baud rates, and you can look at the open source scantool.net software to see exactly what is being sent.
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Old 04-16-2005, 09:51 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty
....google it and see what you get
"OBDII simulator" gives me one page of junk. What term did you use for the search?
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Old 04-16-2005, 11:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus Prime
I was thinking of people like Element Tuning. I think a lot of people would jump to Hydra if they new they could pass emissions.
I doubt it - there is no legitimate use for such a device. Its only purpose would be to defeat state/federal emissions testing. Thus it would most likely not be even legal to sell, but even if it was, it would open up the company to many lawsuits on a state and federal level.

More likely would be someone could design plans for such a device, but you would have to get the parts and assemble it yourself.
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Old 04-17-2005, 12:27 AM   #13
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...or to test the test equipement....


...and the site that I saw before is not listaed on Google anymore....

It had a DIY OBDII simulator that would report all scans complete and good to go to anyting plugged into the port.... goddamned feds musta busted the d00d....
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Old 04-17-2005, 10:11 AM   #14
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Ease Diagnostics makes an OBD-II emulator - http://www.obd2.com/emissions/data/e...s_ver_test.htm.
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Old 04-17-2005, 11:15 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seattle944t
I doubt it - there is no legitimate use for such a device. Its only purpose would be to defeat state/federal emissions testing. Thus it would most likely not be even legal to sell, but even if it was, it would open up the company to many lawsuits on a state and federal level.
At openecu.org we are building a code reader, and a ECU reprogrammer. Having a simulator to test the code reader on for development would be handy. "Legitimate Use"
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Old 04-17-2005, 04:44 PM   #16
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I'd love one of these, but the legality would be highly questionable. I'll come hang out over on openecu.org some more.
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Old 04-18-2005, 06:46 PM   #17
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Default Why not an ENGINE emulator?

So selling a device to spoof an OBD II emissions testing device is a low grade felony or something...

How about a stimulator (virtual engine) for the stock ECU?

1) Install your stand alone ECU of choice.

2) Tune to your satisfaction.

3) Leave the stock computer hooked up to the diagnostic ports on the car (anyone interrogating the car would plug into the OBD port), since the stock Denso computer's wires leading to the sensors and actuators on the engine have been replaced by connectors from the stand alone, hook them up to a box that simply tells the stock computer that everything is just great - a digital lobotomy.

That way the car can be run using your stand alone computer of choice and the stock computer can spit out appropriate code for emissions testing.

Now mind you - I have absolutely no idea what this would entail. It may be a project that only a true electronics genius could pull off and why should said genius want to spend his/her time doing this??

Then again - look at Megasquirt. Here we have a do it yourself EEC module, with worldwide support, that was executed by Bowling and Grippo for no better reason than bringing the concept of open source code community engineering to auto enthusiasts.

Mike

Last edited by Conecrusher; 04-18-2005 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 04-18-2005, 10:41 PM   #18
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So what do you guys think?

Bump
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Old 04-18-2005, 10:44 PM   #19
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You could definitely interface with the stock ECU, you would have to junction all the inputs to the ECU. Technically you could spoof your ECU...it is only looking for values, so if you present it with the correct values, it will work. It would almost be like a piggyback device...yet it would be between the cars sensors and the stock ECU. So it would probably be an engine simulator.
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Old 05-12-2005, 01:10 AM   #20
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A hacked version of that verification tester would be nice:

Quote:
To prevent the OVT-2020 from being substituted as a "clean" vehicle in an emissions inspection, we have built in the following security features. -The controller ID is permanently set to $FD. This value is not an acceptable controller ID.
-The number of PIDs is always 32. On an actual vehicle this would mean all the PIDS were supported. This is not likely to happen.
-The AC Sys Refrig I/M Monitor is always Supported and Not Complete. No vehicle currently supports this I/M monitor.
http://www.obddiagnostics.com/
"It allows you to Read out trouble codes when your "check engine" light comes on. You can also clear these codes. You can retrieve pretty much any piece of OBDII mandated diagnostic data from your vehicle."

If only some smart people could figure out how to use the information and create a piggy back that would store this info and send it when an emissions inspector connects.

http://www.msjc.edu/autosite/shop_equ.htm

Just imagine if somebody made such a device. If the emissions tester only did the OBDII check you could run catless without fear of getting caught at the sniffer test.

Last edited by silentbob343; 05-12-2005 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 05-16-2005, 04:17 PM   #21
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another interesting find:

A guy on this fourm has a new H6 motor and is planning on running 2 ECUs in parallel. A JDM H6 ECU to control AVCS and the Autronic ECU to control fuel, timing, boost, etc...

If a person could do this then someone should be able to keep signals running to the ECU to spoof OBDII inspections?
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Old 05-16-2005, 09:41 PM   #22
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Can someone point me to the vehicle code that says ODB2 emulators is illegal to manufacture, or own?
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Old 05-16-2005, 10:11 PM   #23
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Maybe some people are thinking of this EPA cover letter at http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resour...hsysrepair.pdf:
Quote:
To whom it may concern:

As you know, the Clean Air Act was amended on November 15, 1990. Several of the changes in the Amendments affect the automotive repair/serice industry directly. These changes include the expansion of the tampering prohibition to include private individuals and the prohibition against the manufacture, installation, sale or offering for sale of any part or component used on any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine where a principal effect is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any emission control device or element of design of any emission control system.
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Old 05-17-2005, 05:19 PM   #24
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Would an EcuTek flashed ECU pass the OBDII?
I got a big APS DR55 turbo, TGV Deletes, Fuel rails , FMIC, TBE (with Random Tech Cat) that I'm gonna install, I bought the Hydra but I would not want to revert back to stock configuration when the time comes in a few years... I would just rather flash the stock ECU and swap it w/ the Hydra
Also - since the WRX's are awd - do they just "rev" up the engines w/o any load?
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Old 05-19-2005, 10:49 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silentbob343
If a person could do this then someone should be able to keep signals running to the ECU to spoof OBDII inspections?
The solution here would be: to make a plug-n-play harness that splits into two harnesses. One to the ECU on to the EMS. All this is is just wires. I don't see why it wouldn't work. You just have to make sure that your output wires are only those that go back to the OBDII. Otherwise... you get two ecus fighting to control the motor...
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