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Old 04-18-2005, 12:01 AM   #1
silvscorp
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Default engine tuning alternatives?? boost controller + fuel controller

As I was just thinking, the bottom line of using advanced EMS to tune cars with aftermarket turbo is to maintain a desirable AF ratio to prevent potential knock or excessive rich condition.

Can I obtain the similar results with an electronic boost controller and a fuel controller (like Apexi AFC)?

I"ve used blitz sbc-id before with very positive results and at the moment I am interested in getting this Blitz R-FIT. Of course monitor the fuel setting using a wideband O2.

Was thinking about getting the EMS like Cobb streettuner, etc I am not really that advanced into using such tunning software. Too many parameters just makes it soo complicated and some advanced settings (rev limift, idle speed, etc) I don't think I'll be utilize those much.

So idea is, use EBC to raise the boost and using a stand alone fuel management tool like the Apexi AFC, Blitz R-Fit to adjust fuel setting according to the riased boost level. With the Fuel setting, just use the wideband to monitor the AF at different load level and make adjustment from there.

Anyone think this way is still not enough for tuning? If not, why kind of problems could I be running into?

thanks
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Old 04-18-2005, 12:44 AM   #2
fogdor
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The real thorny issue is that the stock ECU is still in control of timing. If you tune "around" the stock ECU's timing, you leave power on the table. If you ignore the ECU's timing, you leave your engine in bits on the road...or so I've heard
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Old 04-18-2005, 10:03 AM   #3
mbiker97
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An electronic boost controller and an afc costs more than proper management.
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Old 04-18-2005, 10:12 AM   #4
RallyNavvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbiker97
An electronic boost controller and an afc costs more than proper management.
Yes. All my piggybacks were stolen out of my car and the insurance settlement for the value of them allowed me to purchase an E6K for mine. Though to be fair my J&S was stolen with the others
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Old 04-18-2005, 04:35 PM   #5
dosage0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvscorp
As I was just thinking, the bottom line of using advanced EMS to tune cars with aftermarket turbo is to maintain a desirable AF ratio to prevent potential knock or excessive rich condition.

Can I obtain the similar results with an electronic boost controller and a fuel controller (like Apexi AFC)?

I"ve used blitz sbc-id before with very positive results and at the moment I am interested in getting this Blitz R-FIT. Of course monitor the fuel setting using a wideband O2.

Was thinking about getting the EMS like Cobb streettuner, etc I am not really that advanced into using such tunning software. Too many parameters just makes it soo complicated and some advanced settings (rev limift, idle speed, etc) I don't think I'll be utilize those much.

So idea is, use EBC to raise the boost and using a stand alone fuel management tool like the Apexi AFC, Blitz R-Fit to adjust fuel setting according to the riased boost level. With the Fuel setting, just use the wideband to monitor the AF at different load level and make adjustment from there.

Anyone think this way is still not enough for tuning? If not, why kind of problems could I be running into?

thanks

What you are talking about is a lot more complicated than just running a UTEC. A UTEC really isnt that hard, and from what you are talking about -- I think you'd find it easy. Plus with a UTEC, you'd not only get fuel and boost, but also timing -- something you'd be missing with the setup you are talking about.

Setting a UTEC is just like setting individual components and then understanding how they interact. First you set boost, just like setting a boost controller. Then you set fuel to hit the AFRs you want, just like setting your A/F Controller, and then you begin setting timing.

Its the exact same thing... only cheaper and more effective because you get 1) Timing Control 2) Logging capabilities to see all 3 (boost, fuel, timing) at once and 3) Knock control/notification 4) Many many others...

Its a no brainer...

Rob
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Old 04-18-2005, 08:09 PM   #6
silvscorp
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Well, I've never used UTEC nor have I seem it in real time. Is the way of tunning UTEC similar to the Streettunner where you change/modify values in a 3 dimentional manner?(different maps with many cells of value). Since I've never actually done it so I don't know how complicated it is to set up the boost, fuel in UTEC and StreetTunner. I guess I'll have to change the values accross the table to match up with the load at different RPM? Reason I think the ebc and fuel controller is simiple cuz all you have to do is to set 2 values and change it on the fly as you drive.

As for timing I guess computer would eventually learn or can use the Shiv's way to make it a shorter process. In either case, based on what everyone has replied so far, I guess the ebc+fuel adjustment can make a proper tunning?(leave the cost out of the equation for now. Actually a used sbc-id and safc will cost around $600)

bump for more opinions..
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Old 04-19-2005, 07:15 PM   #7
silvscorp
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anyone?
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Old 05-24-2005, 02:42 PM   #8
murrdogg24
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I want to know also. I have a EBC, the Greddy profecII, and want to upgrade my turbo eventually(vf-22). I would prefer to just go with the apexi s-afc. Or should I try to sell my boost controller and go with EM.
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Old 05-25-2005, 02:24 AM   #9
edel33
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for $600 you could buy yourself a brand spankin new cobb accesport, and for maybe 100 more a used utec
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Old 05-25-2005, 07:37 AM   #10
hippy
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If you ever plan on doing bigger mods which require a larger then stock fuel system(like big injectors) you would be much happier with something like a utec or street tuner. This is basically cause of the way wrx's ecus fuel the engine. Ie- The fueling adjustments made with something like an apexi safc will not keep the fueling as steady as something like a utec or street tuner. You could have everything set one day, and when the weather, altitude, or whatever else changes, so does your tune. This might be true with a utec or street tuner also, but not nearly as much as with something like an apexi safc...... You could think you have the a/f ratio tuned in at 10.5 to 1 a/f one day, and end up with 12 to 1 or 9 to 1 the next. This might not even be in the whole rpm range. You could have the whole rpm range tuned to 10.5 to 1 one day, then one part of the rpm range gets leaner the next day while another part of the rpm range gets richer. This obviously isn't good for performance, and could end up just being dangerous for your engine.

In regards to using bigger turbos and having the ecu adjust timing, that's not a good idea either. Our ecu's don't listen for knock above a certain rpm. If they don't see knock below that rpm, the timing will be advanced above that rpm, which could lead to serious detonation and engine damage. When done in conjunction with an aftermarket fuel computer which is removing maf voltage that the ecu see's to try and compensate for things like larger then stock injectors, this can make the situation worse. By removing maf voltage the ecu sees, we make the ecu think there's less load on the engine then the ecu would normally think there is for the amount of air going into the engine. The ecu would then advance the timing more then it normally would for the amount of air going into the engine making the setup that more dangerous for our engines. There's something to be said about using engine management that's ment for our cars.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 05-25-2005 at 08:07 AM.
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