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Old 04-26-2005, 09:52 PM   #1
G3Red04WRX
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Default People that are 12v DC pros, please help.

I ordered a set of sidemarkers for my car (oem amber ovals) and spent the better part of the day at work on my breaks trying to map out the wiring diagram to get them to function quite exstensively.

I do not just want them to stay on all the time, or just blink when i hit the turn signals on.

I want the markers to signal parallel to the turn signals when the running lights are OFF, and to be ON and "repeat" alternately with the turn signals when the running lights are ON.

We narrowed this operation down to 3 relays, 1 for the running light signal for on/off, and 2 for the turn light signals for on/off on each the left and right.

Anyone that is still with me on this should already be able to visualize what im trying to do now.

However, some extensive searching on the internet found me a web page for Volvo maintenance, and there was a section about adding factory side repeaters to US spec Volvos that didnt come with them.

On this link, there is a wiring diagram and explanation that NO relays are needed to get the lights to perform the way i want them to.

The explanation says that i can just tap the leads from my sidemarker to the positive lead on each the running light and the turn signal light and this would create the situation i am looking for.

Does this sound even remotely correrct for the way 12v DC works? It makes me think that i would be using my sidemarker as a bridge to power lights that shouldnt have any power going to them at certain times.

Anyone that has made it all the way thru this and is still not confused, please let me hear your input on this situation. If this is true, its going to save me about 15-20 dollars on relays alone that i had made a diagram for to get this to work for me.

If in the case that I do NEED to use the relays, I will scan and upload the wiring diagram to the forums for others to use if they want. If not, Ill just make up the diagram for the "no-relay" solution to my problem for both 02-03 and 04+ headlight arrangements.
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Old 04-27-2005, 11:12 AM   #2
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I can see doing two relays per side for simplicity...
one relay to control the marker option, another relay to kill or power the sides when the blinkers are blinking...
I would lean towards multi pole & throw relays & hide them in the cabin of the car...

It is way easier to draw it out than explain it...
Radioshack has a hand full of relays that would do the job.
As far as using diodes to do it there is no way to kill the marker when it is already on from the headlights

After thinking about it, it can probibly be done with two diodes & two relays (one of each per side)...
I'll have time this evening to get back to you.
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Old 04-27-2005, 07:24 PM   #3
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Yea, i think weve narrowed it down to 3 relays, we were wracking our brains as to how to get teh right loop to make it work without any relays but it got old and we were on teh verge of spending more time than it was worth.

I have it set right now on paper that you would need only 3 spdt relay switches.

The first would be the "running light" on/off relay, and the other 2 would then independantly control the left and right sidemarkers.

I also think i may have a solution to get away with only one relay per side to get the situation to work, but it would require resistors wired in line in several places to prevent backflow on the current, and i dont really feel like dealing with all that, would be just a lot easier to add that 3rd relay in and call it a day.

Still dont know what route i want to go for the relays, if i want small pcb mount ones and get them fashioned so that they would be part of the harness at the sidemarker end, or keep all 3 relays in a cluster together and just get bigger automotive socket style ones and keep them up under the dash like suggested.

Ill have the diagram once im sure it works and have the markers installed so that i dont post anything incorrect and cause someone else to fry their electrical system on accident and come looking for me...

Video can be done if there is enough demand to see visually what i did with my markers, because as far as i have seen on the forums, everyone seems to just wire them as runners, or flashers, but not both.
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Old 04-28-2005, 01:52 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G3Red04WRX
but it would require resistors wired in line in several places to prevent backflow on the current,
Diodes are like a one way street for DC.

If thinking of using plain old PCB relays they would have to be in an enclosure to protect them from water & high moisture... Even relays for things like aftermarket fog lights fail eventualy.

The 3 or 4 relays would be the easiest if that is what you're comfortable with.
Depending on if the system is switched negitive or positive will be a minor factor in the schematic...
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Old 04-28-2005, 08:33 AM   #5
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ok, this might sound dumb, but why not just use a double filiment bulb to get this effect, and dont use relays at all? if no double filiment bulb is avaliable, just use some LEDs
Shane
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Old 04-28-2005, 09:03 AM   #6
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What sort of bulbs do the lights take?
If you can get LED's that work both ways in them then just connect them across the running lights and turn lights.
The LED's draw very low current so will see a normal bulb as a wire.
When the running lights are on, the LED will earth through the turn light and you have light.
When you have running lights on and operate the turn signal, the earth is lost so the LED's flash.
When the running lights are off and you turn, the LED's draw power from the turn signals and earth through the running lights.
Simple. No relays, no diodes.
Of course, the bulb may not be available as a bi-directional LED. If so, use the method above to power a relay coil with the contacts switching 12V to a normal bulb. Not as easy but still simple.

John

Last edited by John UK; 04-28-2005 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 04-28-2005, 12:25 PM   #7
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no relays necessary.

do the mod to make the oem corner markers blink with your directionals. i believe it is on scoobymods.com.

wired that way when p-lights are on, so are they and they flash w/directionals, and when p-lights are off they flash opposite directionals. every time you read "corner light" replace with "sidemarker light" and you're good to go. no diodes, no relays, no leds, v. simple.
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Old 04-28-2005, 02:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PARANOID56
ok, this might sound dumb, but why not just use a double filiment bulb to get this effect, and dont use relays at all? if no double filiment bulb is avaliable, just use some LEDs
Shane
Because, thats not the goal I am trying to achieve with my wiring schematic. Please re-read what is trying to be accomplished. Your suggestion is appreciated, but wont work for what i need.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John UK
What sort of bulbs do the lights take?
If you can get LED's that work both ways in them then just connect them across the running lights and turn lights.
The LED's draw very low current so will see a normal bulb as a wire.
When the running lights are on, the LED will earth through the turn light and you have light.
When you have running lights on and operate the turn signal, the earth is lost so the LED's flash.
When the running lights are off and you turn, the LED's draw power from the turn signals and earth through the running lights.
Simple. No relays, no diodes.
Of course, the bulb may not be available as a bi-directional LED. If so, use the method above to power a relay coil with the contacts switching 12V to a normal bulb. Not as easy but still simple.

John
This is what we believed to work also, but there is still a "current" passing thru the bulb that is acting as a ground, and will still create an arc thru the filament. Also, as far as i know, there is no bi-directional LED available, since LEDs are techically not a light bulb and only operate with one-way current. Your right, not as easy as just using 3 relays to get the job done, and would probably also cost more to go this route if it was possible since LED technology is much more costly (when you look at teh cost compared to standard light bulbs)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
no relays necessary.

do the mod to make the oem corner markers blink with your directionals. i believe it is on scoobymods.com.

wired that way when p-lights are on, so are they and they flash w/directionals, and when p-lights are off they flash opposite directionals. every time you read "corner light" replace with "sidemarker light" and you're good to go. no diodes, no relays, no leds, v. simple.
Can you please provide a link to this "mod", i have a feeling its pretty much the same as what was stated a few posts up, which would not be the way I am trying to wire the markers up.
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Old 04-28-2005, 02:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G3Red04WRX
Can you please provide a link to this "mod", i have a feeling its pretty much the same as what was stated a few posts up, which would not be the way I am trying to wire the markers up.
not that i didn't tell you where to find it yourself , but whatever:

http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/sho...p?threadid=320

you're welcome.
ken
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Old 04-28-2005, 07:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
not that i didn't tell you where to find it yourself , but whatever:

http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/sho...p?threadid=320

you're welcome.
ken
Thanks for the link, FYI i was at work when i made that earlier post and couldnt log into scoobymods from there to try and find it.

And yes, after reading that, its the same thing that was suggested by another person in this thread, and although it does seem to work, its definitely not a safe way to wire the sidemarkers up. I have already mapped out this situation and even though its very simple to do, it does create problems. In the situation where you would use NO relays, your actually using the filament of the inactive bulb as an arc for your ground, and are in fact running power thru the filament. I will attach a sketch in a few minutes to show what is really going on by not using any relays.

I would much prefer to just use the 3 relays, and a constant fused voltage source to run the sidemarkers independantly and let the relays determine the lights on/off situation. It is a much safer route than tapping into pre-existing wiring on the car to draw more power from them. With the relays, the stock lighting wiring would remain unaffected and you would only be using the signals from the stock wiring to trigger your relays.
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Old 04-29-2005, 04:31 AM   #11
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This is what we believed to work also, but there is still a "current" passing thru the bulb that is acting as a ground, and will still create an arc thru the filament. Also, as far as i know, there is no bi-directional LED available, since LEDs are techically not a light bulb and only operate with one-way current. Your right, not as easy as just using 3 relays to get the job done, and would probably also cost more to go this route if it was possible since LED technology is much more costly (when you look at teh cost compared to standard light bulbs)

The idea of using LEDs is that the curent is so small that it will not illuminate a normal bulb. The current drawn by a relay coil is equally low so the effect is the same.
I'm UK based so your references to different lights are different to ours. As a result, I'm not sure of the wattage of the various bulbs. Basically, if you connect a low wattage bulb in series with a high wattage one, only the low wattage bulb will light.
Bi-directional LEDs are available but maybe not in the right envelope for your lights. see here
http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/product_i...09ae87d31150c4
I agree cost would be higher than normal bulbs but if relays are invloved, things get more expensive.
I've had a look at the mod suggested and have trouble understanding it due to the references to US lights. I also know that your wiring systems and use of lights is different to us.
It looks like the mod should work. I suspect that the current is reversible depending on the lighting configuration. Hence the different opperation of the side markers when they flash.
If it does what you want, and it seems to, go for it.
Good luck

John
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Old 04-29-2005, 09:10 AM   #12
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if you WANT to make things harder for yourself, go right ahead with the relay idea.

i can tell you that i did this mod 2 weeks into owning the car. i am on 2+ years now. i use my directionals a lot. i've never had a problem. there are a lot of other folks with the same mod, and they've never reported problems either. i don't need a sketch to see the current loops. i've already worked it out long ago when i first did the mod and besides, the proof is in the pudding.

if you think adding THREE relays will DECREASE the chance of failure, you've obviously not worked with a lot of relays before. i mean, you're not talking 30a of current here--there just isn't a need.

it's cool though: it's your car and you may do with it as you wish. good luck!
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
if you WANT to make things harder for yourself, go right ahead with the relay idea.

i can tell you that i did this mod 2 weeks into owning the car. i am on 2+ years now. i use my directionals a lot. i've never had a problem. there are a lot of other folks with the same mod, and they've never reported problems either. i don't need a sketch to see the current loops. i've already worked it out long ago when i first did the mod and besides, the proof is in the pudding.

if you think adding THREE relays will DECREASE the chance of failure, you've obviously not worked with a lot of relays before. i mean, you're not talking 30a of current here--there just isn't a need.

it's cool though: it's your car and you may do with it as you wish. good luck!
I dont want anyone to think im saying that it wont work, but it just doesnt seem to be the safest way to route the wiring. The relay thing is something i am considering doing, primarily to keep the sidemarkers on their own power supply instead of tapping off existing lighting. Its really only a matter of 12-15 dollars for me to wire up the relays, and im trying to figure it its those 12-15 dollars that will mean the difference between a safe wiring situation, or risking burning something up or causing problems down the line.

The more i keep searching, the more it seems the relays arent necessary to get this to work the way i want, but on paper it just doesnt seem to make sence "why" it works without causing problems.

Thank you all for your help so far, i dont want you to think its not appreciated or anything like that, its probably my amateur experience with how DC voltage really does work. Ive never had any problems with 12v DC before until i sat down and started trying to figure out how to work these sidemarkers to their full potential.

Hopefully the mailman will be here soon and i can get started on at least installing the markers themselves, then figure out the wiring after that.
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Old 04-29-2005, 05:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
This is what we believed to work also, but there is still a "current" passing thru the bulb that is acting as a ground, and will still create an arc thru the filament...
As John mentioned, the current is so low that it should not illuminate the bulb. (Also, no "arc" is present, as that can only happen across a gap, not along a wire). The normal bulb will only be damaged by too high a current; a current low enough not to turn it on won't affect it.
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:39 PM   #15
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Alright, well i got my sidemarkers, and im gonna give it a try without the relays, since everyone seems to keep aggreeing that it will work.

I hope this works as well for an 04 as it does on the 02-03.

Pics will be soon to come in the "red" thread under members rides. If i should post pics elsewhere also, someone please let me know where I should.

I havent seen a "sidemarker" picture gallery anywhere to show different markers on the different colors, and maybe everyone that has them should work together to build up a nice gallery to give everone else a common place to look and decide what colors they want to go with on their cars. If anyone else is interested in this, maybe we can get the mods to make it a sticky somewhere for everyone to get back to easily.
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Old 05-02-2005, 01:06 PM   #16
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Do it w/o the relays. US cars have been wired like that for ages, and I believe Hondas too.
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Old 05-02-2005, 01:48 PM   #17
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I can't read all this right now but the install is easy. Side markers should be simple single filament bulbs.

Wire one lead from the aftermarket bulb to the marker light positive, and one lead from the aftermarket bulb to the signal indicator positive. When either factory light is off, those leads rest at ground. As soon as one is on, the side marker will illuminate. When both are on the marker will be off. It's cake.

Signal pulse + running light off = side marker pulses with signal.
Signal off + running light on = side marker on steady.
Signal pulse + running light on = side marker pulses opposite the signal light.

Is that the way you want it?

If someone already posted this sorry. I only have a little time to cruise around the site. Had to get it out.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2phless
I can't read all this right now but the install is easy. Side markers should be simple single filament bulbs.

Wire one lead from the aftermarket bulb to the marker light positive, and one lead from the aftermarket bulb to the signal indicator positive. When either factory light is off, those leads rest at ground. As soon as one is on, the side marker will illuminate. When both are on the marker will be off. It's cake.

Signal pulse + running light off = side marker pulses with signal.
Signal off + running light on = side marker on steady.
Signal pulse + running light on = side marker pulses opposite the signal light.

Is that the way you want it?

If someone already posted this sorry. I only have a little time to cruise around the site. Had to get it out.

Yea, thanks for the input, its already been solved. Im gonna run it this way, and hope that saving the money over buying the relays wont end up causing me problems later on.

Thanks everyone for the help. Look for pictures soon, as soon as Chicago decides it wants to be warm out again so i can spend moer than 10 minutes at a time outside cutting those holes....
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Old 05-03-2005, 05:34 AM   #19
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As an aside to this thread, I have wired a relay to operate my rear fog lights in this way on other cars. I take the fog light live through a realay coil to 2 diodes and then to both indicators.
When the fogs are switched on, provided there is at least one turn signal not working, the fogs will light. When both turn signals are on, the relay looses its earth and the fogs go off. As a result, they flash in opposition to the hazard lights.
The effect is very noticable. The hazards now seem more than twice as obvious as before.
I realise that it's illegal to have lights working like this but the effect is so much better that I'm prepared to risk it.

John
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:05 PM   #20
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Anyone know where to get the rear foglight switch for the new-age impreza? Thats the next thing i want to do after i get the sidemarkers installed.

Yep, they STILL arent installed, it hasnt been out of the 50's since i got them in the mail. Im gettin really twitchy waiting for a warm day after work to get these things installed.... Hate seeing something i got for my car sit in its packaging for more than a day. Pics soon, i promise!
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:48 AM   #21
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Heres some teaser pics of the markers FINALLY installed. Ill have more pictures after i get the car a good bath.

Enjoy the pics.






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