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Old 05-09-2005, 04:24 PM   #301
tmarcel
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So true!
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Old 05-09-2005, 04:32 PM   #302
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I remember seeing something like this done years ago in things that should have worked but didn't. His idea looks good but on the switch over from supercharger to turbo How smooth is the swap over? Is the a stuter like when a UTEC is not smoothly tuned or is there a big surge

If it works good it would be the Shiznite but if it don't you just blew a huge chunk of cash
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Old 05-09-2005, 04:52 PM   #303
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I remember an arrticle in SCC magazine a while back where they did this on a MR2 turbo model. In the end they got rid of the SC'R in favor of just the straight turbo set up. IIRC, they couldn't get the two components to play well together and the turbo ended up making more power alone.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:25 PM   #304
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Oh my, turbo + s/c, awesome!

What I don't understand is why people are saying the S/C is for down low. S/C boost pressure is directly related to rpms - thus they make max boost at max rpms. Now, if this is a roots type s/c like it looks, it still wouldn't be putting out that type of boost down low. My guess is a real small turbo with killer spool plus the s/c to make boost from midrange to up top.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:36 PM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixlimited
Oh my, turbo + s/c, awesome!

What I don't understand is why people are saying the S/C is for down low. S/C boost pressure is directly related to rpms - thus they make max boost at max rpms. Now, if this is a roots type s/c like it looks, it still wouldn't be putting out that type of boost down low. My guess is a real small turbo with killer spool plus the s/c to make boost from midrange to up top.
Uh no that would not be a good way to do it. The blower is needed to make the low end grunt and then the turbo takes over when it is past it's dead point. The blower up top would be much more efficient in the lower rpm then on the top end.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:45 PM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Crunch
I doubt they are modded injectors. When I talked to Robert he told me he was running stock injectors. I asked him if he recommended my using modded stockers. He recommended against it.

Then I asked him if he used water injection or something similar, and he said no.

Which leads me to be believe that he is using stock injectors. He didn't quote the 550 whp figure to me though.
They were stock injectors initially, that is what he made the 4xxhp on... then he put in the 550cc injectors, a fuel pump, and tuning and was able to eek out another 100hp...

I don't see how this is such an hard idea to grasp, you CAN tune a turbo system around STOCK hardware, the original dyno numbers were done at Dynocomp here in PHX, and after the fuel system was installed the tune/dyno pulls were done at the EXACT same place... call Richard at Dynocomp if you think we are full of crap, ask him about Robert Ansick's STI... I'm sure that he will tell you that they tuned the car with the 550cc injectors and that the A/F ratios were perfect across the board.

If you really think about it, it is not mind boggling how someone made a kit and tuned it to Stock specifications (psi) but instead of having crazy pull from a GT35R uptop at about 15-18psi, you have it throughout the whole powerband. I'm not a mechanic or a tuner, but I see this car everyday and it is a BEAST. Not one to mess with, that's for sure. I'll see if I can get a dyno graph from before and after the tune and fuel system... and post them.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:50 PM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2002WRXSTi
Uh no that would not be a good way to do it. The blower is needed to make the low end grunt and then the turbo takes over when it is past it's dead point. The blower up top would be much more efficient in the lower rpm then on the top end.
Show me a S/C that makes power down that low. A centrifugal s/c pushes boost that is linearly related to rpms and it makes max boost at max rpms period. A roots type (like the 04+ Cobra has) makes power pretty quickly, but not 25 psi by 1900 rpms.

You are incorrect, sorry.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:56 PM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixlimited
Show me a S/C that makes power down that low. A centrifugal s/c pushes boost that is linearly related to rpms and it makes max boost at max rpms period. A roots type (like the 04+ Cobra has) makes power pretty quickly, but not 25 psi by 1900 rpms.

You are incorrect, sorry.
U are incorrect SORRY You over drive the supercharger so it is making boost in lower RPM. Then you turn it off as he seems to be trying to do when the larger turbo is in it's range. Please do not tell me about supercharger as I have been installing them since the late 80's and I know how to make them work

A roots style or any mechanical compressor will make boost as soon as you spin it.
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Old 05-09-2005, 07:07 PM   #309
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Perhaps you are right, but I still contest that S/Cs are not made for low-end power.
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Old 05-09-2005, 07:17 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixlimited
Perhaps you are right, but I still contest that S/Cs are not made for low-end power.
If I read 2002's post correctly, he is saying they are much better down low than turbos. If you argue with this point, I would argue back that you are mentally challenged.

Jon
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Old 05-09-2005, 09:48 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixlimited
Perhaps you are right, but I still contest that S/Cs are not made for low-end power.
I am right when it comes to roots style superchargers. Centrifugal superchargers do not build any boost untill they are spinning at turbo like speeds. However superchargers like 6/71 GMC blowers that you see sticking out of the hood of the Pro Street cars of old are taken off of a GMC Diesel with a very low redline.

[The second type of supercharger utilizes a more efficient design which actually compresses the air as it's drawn through the unit. Some examples of centrifugal blowers are those from Paxton, Vortech Engineering and, to some degree since the air is compressed inside the unit, the Whipple Industries screw-type supercharger. Turbos also fall into this category.]

So it can go either way depending on what kind of supercharger you are using. However they are using the S/C for the low end and the Turbo for the top end in this situation. You can look at this page Supercharger FAQ for a quick bit of info on these S/C's.
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Old 05-09-2005, 10:26 PM   #312
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2002 WRX, thanks I was going to explain the SC specifics but looks like you schooled it already
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Old 05-10-2005, 11:11 AM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pickinicholas
They were stock injectors initially, that is what he made the 4xxhp on... then he put in the 550cc injectors, a fuel pump, and tuning and was able to eek out another 100hp...

I don't see how this is such an hard idea to grasp, you CAN tune a turbo system around STOCK hardware, the original dyno numbers were done at Dynocomp here in PHX, and after the fuel system was installed the tune/dyno pulls were done at the EXACT same place... call Richard at Dynocomp if you think we are full of crap, ask him about Robert Ansick's STI... I'm sure that he will tell you that they tuned the car with the 550cc injectors and that the A/F ratios were perfect across the board.

If you really think about it, it is not mind boggling how someone made a kit and tuned it to Stock specifications (psi) but instead of having crazy pull from a GT35R uptop at about 15-18psi, you have it throughout the whole powerband. I'm not a mechanic or a tuner, but I see this car everyday and it is a BEAST. Not one to mess with, that's for sure. I'll see if I can get a dyno graph from before and after the tune and fuel system... and post them.
the reason its not possible because if he is flowing 500whp of air, you need fuel to match, and someone i believe already posted that his 700+cc injectors were maxed at 400 something whp, so you can see what i am getting at. the only way its possible is if they are modded, or he is running 100psi fuel pressure.

Ben
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Old 05-10-2005, 11:57 AM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHATsuby
the reason its not possible because if he is flowing 500whp of air, you need fuel to match, and someone i believe already posted that his 700+cc injectors were maxed at 400 something whp, so you can see what i am getting at. the only way its possible is if they are modded, or he is running 100psi fuel pressure.

Ben
I told you I wasn't a tuner.... lol... Thanks for the explination. I don't know what he did or how he tuned it... but I saw the injectors he took out and the ones he put in. They were TOTALLY stock (not modified) and the ones he put in were PEs.
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Old 06-07-2005, 09:30 PM   #315
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fyi I cant spell or type:

a roots SC will make plenty of boost at low rpm.
I get 14 psi at 1500 rpm ( well as low an RPM as I can let the clutch out under load anyway) in my SC mr2.

a lysholm SC is very efficient, as are the cyntrifical paxton / ati / vortech ones that have impellers like a turbo. the lyshom will let you make boost from idel to redline, the cyntrifical has to get going fast enough to produce bost so wont create boost till a certain engine rpm.
All SC's have parasitic loss that turbos do not have, so even at 80% the lysholm falls short of the turbo at 70% because this is a measure of compressor eficiency.. not overall system efficiency.

main goal of a twincharge system is to make more power than a turbo only system over a larger rpm band. How can you accompliosh this.. *must* disengange SC once the turbo is spooled, and must use a bigger turbo than the tubo only setup. if you run your SC at 14 psi on a STI motor you can spool a turbo that is sized for a 5 liter motor.. and you can run a large turbine housing, and end up with boost pressure higher than backpressure. All the Sc ends up being is a spool up aid.. that aids so much yu can run a much larger turbo than a turbo only setup. The limit becomes compresor surge feeding a 2.5l motor.. imagine a big GT40 spoled at 3k rpm.. it is gong to surge like crazy.
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Old 06-07-2005, 10:10 PM   #316
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i'll just say that this car truly is a daily driver...matter of fact, he joined us az scoobies on a recent day long cruise up north. the car runs killer, smooth and the owner is very knowledgable. and yes, call dynocomp and ask about the car, rich would love to give some info.
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Old 06-07-2005, 10:38 PM   #317
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It has been a daily driver for a long time now too. Makes me feel very confident that my STI will handle anything I throw at it (with in reason).

Ryan
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Old 06-08-2005, 12:29 AM   #318
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Superchargers make nearly instant low-end power. Just about any kind you'd care to try. I have drag raced B, C and D/GS cars for many years, as well as other supercharged classes, with my brother-in-law. The GMC 8/71 was always my favorite. Of course it won't fit under your hood.

Anyway, back on topic. One of the german car manufacturers has announced a regular production model that uses twin forced-air induction, with a supercharger and turbo. I wish I could find the article; I think it was Mercedes, but I'm not sure.

[Deleted image of our supercharged drag car.... not a Suby]

Last edited by Balr14; 06-08-2005 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 06-08-2005, 07:38 AM   #319
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One of the things that's left out is how much heat turbos create underneath the hood, contributing to engine performance. Also, efficiency of a "turburu" is less because of the distance of piping from the headers to the turbo, unlike other setups like the evo for instance. In terms of overall efficiency this is something that often not factored in. This is why I think a twin screw like a kenne bell, or whipple, maybe better overall for pump gas setups. The twin-screws may have theoretically less peak efficiency than a turbo, but they can be more efficient over a broader range of PR and CFM. It would be interesting to see how an excellent twin-screw like a kenne bell or whipple supercharger would compare to say a stock vf39 for power under the curve.
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Old 06-08-2005, 08:21 AM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdchmiel
The limit becomes compresor surge feeding a 2.5l motor.. imagine a big GT40 spoled at 3k rpm.. it is gong to surge like crazy.

I'm imagining compressor surge.
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Old 06-08-2005, 09:04 AM   #321
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haha was it good for you too?
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Old 06-08-2005, 10:53 PM   #322
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July issue of Car and Driver,page32. VW is about to produce a twin charge 1.4 lt good for about 168hp. This is from the magazine.
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