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Old 04-29-2005, 06:27 PM   #51
Javier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobie Steve
Some of us have been on this board long enough to see the rise and fall of more then one supercharger kit...they all sucked. Now they think they can add a turbo and things will be fine. HA I couldnt care less about numbers. I have no doubt you will see an increase in HP in the 1000-3500 rpm range. I dont need more power there because 99.9% of the time my rpms are not in that lag range. The only reason they would be in that range is pulling out easy in first gear but thats only for less then a second. This setup is just not practical. Is there any reason you should pay $7500 or more for this kit?? Please someone sell this kit to me....I am not sold
I don't think most people could justify buying this kit. I think if you're really into racing of any type then this is a viable option. For drag racing this will make lanching a lot easier for guys with bigger turbos and for track racing, having power at 2k rpms is nice for getting out of corners in a hurry and still having enough push up top for long straights. I really don't see this as having practical street applications. That's not to say that someone might not buy it for street use, but I don't see it as practical for most people.
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Old 04-29-2005, 06:58 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobie Steve
Some of us have been on this board long enough to see the rise and fall of more then one supercharger kit...they all sucked. Now they think they can add a turbo and things will be fine. HA I couldnt care less about numbers. I have no doubt you will see an increase in HP in the 1000-3500 rpm range. I dont need more power there because 99.9% of the time my rpms are not in that lag range. The only reason they would be in that range is pulling out easy in first gear but thats only for less then a second. This setup is just not practical. Is there any reason you should pay $7500 or more for this kit?? Please someone sell this kit to me....I am not sold
Maby the kit wasn't made for the very conservative driver in mind... I see this car every day (Robert is who made my GT30R kit and is currently installing my Axis stage 4 motor) and every day I see it I appreciate it even more... I believe that the original intent of this kit was with Rally racers in mind. It just came to the point that there was enough interest in this kit, why not build and sell it?

It might not be practical for you, and if so shut you ass up and try not to persuade everyone else not to buy a AWESOME kit. There are alot of people that have different priorities and practicalities... so if you don't like it, go back to your corner.

The comment:
Quote:
One thing i heard through the grapevine is that he was on stock injectors, and stock ECU (no EM). that would really restrict power. im assuming now, that they are not on the stock engine management anymore, and they have upgraded or modded their injectors.
You are correct... he built the kit to work with a stock fuel/EM system. No it didn't make huge numbers (in the 400hp range) but with the addition of injectors, fuel pump, and a Ecutek tune he was able to get quite a bit more power.
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:03 PM   #53
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This kit has NO benefit on the drag strip. You can launch at almost full boost with launch control/ antilag, and its alot cheaper and lighter then this kit. Autocross it could be beneficial.

bunot I have lag in that rpm range but if you are in the correct gear there is NO reason to be in that rpm range, unless you are worried about MPG

Quote:
Originally Posted by pickinicholas
Maby the kit wasn't made for the very conservative driver in mind....
I think this kit must have been made for the conservative driver..people who putt around in the 1000-3500rpm range all day.

Last edited by Scoobie Steve; 04-29-2005 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:21 PM   #54
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I see several responses jumping to defend the people who are questioning this kit, and I am certain that a few are directed at my comments, so I will clarify my comments.

I never questioned the benefit of twin charging. It is a great, although complex system, that has been used to great advantage.

I questioned the supercharger settup itself. Of course some of you may think that I know nothing about this. If you look through the history on this website and on RS25.com you will see that I designed a supercharger system for the 2.5 that was intended to be used as a production kit. To be completely frank about it, there might be 2 or 3 people in the US that might know more about hooking a belt driven supercharger up to a Subaru than me. We went through multiple layouts on the bracket for the supercharger and for the belt system. Because of the way this belt is laid out on this kit and the sharp angle it makes around the blower pulley, the belt will stretch quickly, and it will slip. How do I know, because we had a similiar layout at one point, and it did these things. As for the brackets that are used in this kit. I personally couldn't look at myself in a mirror if I were trying to sell a supercharger system that used a mounting system like this. The supercharger needs to be mounted to the engine in such a way that it becomes a solid piece of the longblock assembly. It needs to be attached as firmly as the alternator or AC compressor, even more so because it weighs more and produces more power drain on the system. If it has any deflection at all from the plane that the belt should be on, their will be a massive drain on efficiency, or worse...the belt could begin walking, or come off. The mounting system used on a quality supercharger kit is three sided. It doesn't just mount the unit to the engine at three points, but holds the unit in a three sided box. If you don't believe me, Corky Bell has a wonderful book on the subject of superchargers and devotes an entire chapter to the subject of proper mounting.
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:29 PM   #55
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you owe me an injectors, you bastard j/k

I'd like to see numbers, video...anything about this car. Yet no one with anything official to say...
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:30 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobie Steve
This kit has NO benefit on the drag strip. You can launch at almost full boost with launch control/ antilag, and its alot cheaper and lighter then this kit. Autocross it could be beneficial.
now see. that's just a retarded statement. you can't have launch control with an automatic. and this kit would benefit automatics the most. this would absolutely be beneficial for an auto setup on the drag strip.

Quote:
bunot I have lag in that rpm range but if you are in the correct gear there is NO reason to be in that rpm range, unless you are worried about MPG


when you're starting from a stop, you WILL be in that rpm range. you have no choice but to cross it. this kit would help a person's 0-60 times and 60fts. so i don't know why you think it would be useless for drag racing.
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:34 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
I see several responses jumping to defend the people who are questioning this kit, and I am certain that a few are directed at my comments, so I will clarify my comments.

I never questioned the benefit of twin charging. It is a great, although complex system, that has been used to great advantage.

I questioned the supercharger settup itself. Of course some of you may think that I know nothing about this. If you look through the history on this website and on RS25.com you will see that I designed a supercharger system for the 2.5 that was intended to be used as a production kit. To be completely frank about it, there might be 2 or 3 people in the US that might know more about hooking a belt driven supercharger up to a Subaru than me. We went through multiple layouts on the bracket for the supercharger and for the belt system. Because of the way this belt is laid out on this kit and the sharp angle it makes around the blower pulley, the belt will stretch quickly, and it will slip. How do I know, because we had a similiar layout at one point, and it did these things. As for the brackets that are used in this kit. I personally couldn't look at myself in a mirror if I were trying to sell a supercharger system that used a mounting system like this. The supercharger needs to be mounted to the engine in such a way that it becomes a solid piece of the longblock assembly. It needs to be attached as firmly as the alternator or AC compressor, even more so because it weighs more and produces more power drain on the system. If it has any deflection at all from the plane that the belt should be on, their will be a massive drain on efficiency, or worse...the belt could begin walking, or come off. The mounting system used on a quality supercharger kit is three sided. It doesn't just mount the unit to the engine at three points, but holds the unit in a three sided box. If you don't believe me, Corky Bell has a wonderful book on the subject of superchargers and devotes an entire chapter to the subject of proper mounting.
I agree with your statement that a supercharger should be supported by 3 sides, but at the same time... you really can't see all the bracketing that is underneath the supercharger... Robert has designed this kit VERY maticulously, and there is more mounting points than is seen in the picture.

And since he has been running this kit (about 1 year) he (to my knowledge) has not ever had to replace or repeditively tighten the system's tension on the belt. It does have a sharp/tight bend... but I don't think that it has more than a timing belt has behind the cover.
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:40 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunot
now see. that's just a retarded statement. you can't have launch control with an automatic. and this kit would benefit automatics the most. this would absolutely be beneficial for an auto setup on the drag strip.





when you're starting from a stop, you WILL be in that rpm range. you have no choice but to cross it. this kit would help a person's 0-60 times and 60fts. so i don't know why you think it would be useless for drag racing.
The only downfall this system has in drag racing is this: When launching the boost comes on so quick/hard that you hardly have any time to shift... so there is HUGE potential to miss shifts with the STI 6 speed. I've seen it happen a ton of times to Robert. But when all the shifts are there this kit is insane at the track. Now, take into consideration that Robert is in no way a "professional race car driver" he is a Turbo/supercharging fabricator. I'm sure that if Ryan Woon (owner/driver of a 9sec 6speed Supra) got in this car the time would be substantially lower.
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:41 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pickinicholas
The only downfall this system has in drag racing is this: When launching the boost comes on so quick/hard that you hardly have any time to shift... so there is HUGE potential to miss shifts with the STI 6 speed. I've seen it happen a ton of times to Robert. But when all the shifts are there this kit is insane at the track. Now, take into consideration that Robert is in no way a "professional race car driver" he is a Turbo/supercharging fabricator. I'm sure that if Ryan Woon (owner/driver of a 9sec 6speed Supra) got in this car the time would be substantially lower.
you can't miss a shift with an auto.
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:42 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunot
you can't miss a shift with an auto.
I think you need to get a blower kit made
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:46 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorNick
I think you need to get a blower kit made
once they feed me some more info.....maybe.
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:51 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunot
now see. that's just a retarded statement. you can't have launch control with an automatic. and this kit would benefit automatics the most. this would absolutely be beneficial for an auto setup on the drag strip.





when you're starting from a stop, you WILL be in that rpm range. you have no choice but to cross it. this kit would help a person's 0-60 times and 60fts. so i don't know why you think it would be useless for drag racing.
Oh boy where is the slap myself in the forehead icon. An automatic doesnt need launch control/ antilag. You can fully load the engine at any rpm you choose with a high stall TC and trans break. If you arnt leaving the line with full boost in an auto then take the $7500 this kit would cost and do some mods to your trans.

Ok you sold me on two applications where this kit might be slightly beneficial, auto-x if you had a huge laggy turbo and dog-o-matics that drag without trans mods.

This wont help my 60' time at all since no one that knows how to launch launches under 3500rpm or an rpm lower then what there turbo spools at.

pickinicholas you have seen this car run???

Last edited by Scoobie Steve; 04-29-2005 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 04-29-2005, 08:02 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Scoobie Steve
pickinicholas you have seen this car run???
Yeah I occasionally visit the track with Robert... But unfortunately don't remember exact times.
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Old 04-29-2005, 08:15 PM   #64
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Good god.
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Old 04-29-2005, 09:52 PM   #65
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Somebody may have already asked this, but...
Why is 548whp only good for mid-11's in a 3200lb car with AWD?
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Old 04-29-2005, 10:31 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobie Steve
Oh boy where is the slap myself in the forehead icon. An automatic doesnt need launch control/ antilag. You can fully load the engine at any rpm you choose with a high stall TC and trans break. If you arnt leaving the line with full boost in an auto then take the $7500 this kit would cost and do some mods to your trans.
omfg.....

odd, i have a hi stall TC, modded valvebody and full blown auto race trans and i can't leave the line at full boost. in fact, i don't know ANY auto wrx that can do that, and i know A LOT of auto wrx owners having been modding my car for over 2 yrs.

Quote:
This wont help my 60' time at all since no one that knows how to launch launches under 3500rpm or an rpm lower then what there turbo spools at.
jesus friggin christ!!! do you think the supercharger stops blowing air once you get past 3500 rpms??!?
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Old 04-29-2005, 10:32 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobie Steve

pickinicholas you have seen this car run???
do a friggin search, several nabisco members have ridden in the car.
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Old 04-29-2005, 10:53 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunot
do a friggin search, several nabisco members have ridden in the car.
Well good for them....now tell me what that car runs in the 1/4 including 60' times.

So let me see if I have this right. You stage the car, put on the trans break, floor the car...rpms rise to 4000, engine is at 100% load and you dont have full boost... your car sucks or you have monkeys modding it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunot
jesus friggin christ!!! do you think the supercharger stops blowing air once you get past 3500 rpms??!?
Well I hope they shut it off once the turbo is spooled, nothing like killing crank hp by spinning a supercharger when its not needed.

Last edited by Scoobie Steve; 04-29-2005 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:01 PM   #69
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This looks like an interesting kit. I have met Robert a few times. He seems like he is a pretty good fabricator. Also understand that this is his own car so he would for sure make the kit the best he knows how. Just like our GT35R kit. If thats not good enough for you then dont buy it. Find someone that knows more then me or him and go that route. Hats off to them for making something unique. Its not cheap but if this is your steeze then go for it. I have never seen the car in person and I have never ridden in the car but hope to at some point. This is not 548whp. Its crank hp using a factor. But still... the idea of the kit is a wide power band and that it must have. I would love to tune it up myself one day to really see what it would do.

Clark
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:01 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jared nelson
i think people are just hating, because this concept is way off the main stream. well so was being black 50 years ago, and jewish before that. now, its a common fact that basketball is only for black people and those few white people that have exceptional skills. and jewish people are the only people out there that are good for... ... ... well, you get the point, its just not mainstream. accept it, thats what drives our community to positive change and evolution.
Sorry to be OT, but the hell is this other than the second worst analogy I have ever heard.
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:15 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by WRXURV8
Sorry to be OT, but the hell is this other than the second worst analogy I have ever heard.
I was thinking the exact same thing I was confused that nobody else had noticed it or commented on it before. Definately the worst analogy I've ever read.
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:23 PM   #72
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agreed, i was not trying for the best analogy in the world. that would have taken longer to think up.
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Old 04-30-2005, 12:01 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobie Steve
This kit has NO benefit on the drag strip. You can launch at almost full boost with launch control/ antilag, and its alot cheaper and lighter then this kit. Autocross it could be beneficial...
That is the most ignorant statement i have read in this entire thread. As much as people seem to say it but don't live by it, power under the curve matters. Power under the curve means power above (most people understand this, like a higher rev limit) and below peak power. Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that exactly matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same.

Therefore, yes, having this setup WOULD benefit you in the 1/4 mile. It probably weighs 100 more lbs on the front end, but the "longer" first gear (since we can use more of that power, kinda like a ej207 reving to 8500) allows us to get better 60' and 330' times (assuming we don't break the or rear end). Who cares how much this would 'benefit' you at the track, do you realize how fun this setup would be, anywhere? (autox, drag, ranchs)

Don't believe me? Look at this video.

"Power under the curve"
http://www.hsvracing.com/~upload/Tig...A-vs-supra.avi

(This video is of a Twin turbo TA that puts down 725rwhp and a turbo Supra that puts down 720rwhp. Just watch how badly the TA blows the doors off the Supra....oh and you can see the Supra trying to brake boost during every race, and the TA didnt' even bother.)

Last edited by jefersun; 04-30-2005 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 04-30-2005, 12:23 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunot
omfg.....

odd, i have a hi stall TC, modded valvebody and full blown auto race trans and i can't leave the line at full boost. in fact, i don't know ANY auto wrx that can do that, and i know A LOT of auto wrx owners having been modding my car for over 2 yrs.
Forgive my ignorance since I come from the Supra and boosted IS300 world before this, but what are you doing wrong? Boosted domestics, Supras, and IS300's can leave the line at full boost, why cant you?

And I don't know how anyone could say this is beneficial to drag racing...get a decent launch and you're out of the 1k-3500k range that everyone is praising this kit for.

Last edited by 337; 04-30-2005 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 04-30-2005, 12:27 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefersun
That is the most ignorant statement i have read in this entire thread. As much as people seem to say it but don't live by it, power under the curve matters. Power under the curve means power above (most people understand this, like a higher rev limit) and below peak power. Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that exactly matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same.

Therefore, yes, having this setup WOULD benefit you in the 1/4 mile. It probably weighs 100 more lbs on the front end, but the "longer" first gear (since we can use more of that power, kinda like a ej207 reving to 8500) allows us to get better 60' and 330' times (assuming we don't break the or rear end). Who cares how much this would 'benefit' you at the track, do you realize how fun this setup would be, anywhere? (autox, drag, ranchs)

Don't believe me? Look at this video.

"Power under the curve"
http://www.hsvracing.com/~upload/Tig...A-vs-supra.avi
Have you ever driven a car down the drag strip?? I have no clue what you are trying to say in your post. Now listen and try to understand what I am saying... the supercharger makes power in the low rpm range 1000-3500. After 4000rpms the supercharger is doing NOTHING and the turbocharger is making the power. Please tell me what "more power under the curve" from 1000-3500 rpms will do for me at the drag when MY CAR IS NOT IN THAT RPM RANGE. NOT EVEN ONCE IN THAT RPM RANGE.

That street racing vid is weak.

Here are some of my vids. My rpms NEVER fall below 4500, not once down the hole track, not on the launch not ever. That supercharger will do nothing for someone that knows how to drive at the track.

Right click save as need divx codec
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wODg5OTc2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wODg5OTc3NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D
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