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Old 04-30-2005, 01:38 PM   #101
Scoobie Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jared nelson
1 autos are faster in the 1/4 mile (dare i open that can of worms,?
Yup just like this kit will help your 60' Just for fun goto scoobymile and check the 60' times for the fastest 20 subarus. Not bad no one slower then a 1.8x. how many of them running superchargers?? NONE
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Old 04-30-2005, 01:40 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 337
To the people claiming this will drastically reduce 60ft times, show me a sub 1.6 60ft out of it, b/c thats what stock sti's have been known to be capable of.
i got a better idea, show me a stock sti that has a sub 1.6 60ft. coz i don't know of any.

here's http://scoobymile.com/ to help you out.
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Old 04-30-2005, 01:42 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobie Steve
Yup just like this kit will help your 60' Just for fun goto scoobymile and check the 60' times for the fastest 20 subarus. Not bad no one slower then a 1.8x. how many of them running superchargers?? NONE

only 2 cars in that scoobymile top 20 is an auto.

btw, the "none of them running superchargers" theory is retarded. there's only 1 person in this country with that kind of kit, obviously none of the top 20 are going to run that system.

Last edited by bunot; 04-30-2005 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 04-30-2005, 01:52 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobie Steve
Yup just like this kit will help your 60' Just for fun goto scoobymile and check the 60' times for the fastest 20 subarus. Not bad no one slower then a 1.8x. how many of them running superchargers?? NONE

1/4 mile...

out of every type of car, the fastest individual car ie, camaro mutang, WRX supra, ect, is auto. sorry the argument has been had thousands of times, and its proven.. its mathmatically proven. cant argue it anymore.
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Old 04-30-2005, 02:21 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnite_wrex

if you want power at 1900rpms why not just get a v8?
i think it's for the same reason that people say that if you want highway performance with reliability, you should buy a Supra and not bother with the Impreza platform.

IMO, all of these kits have their place in the market. Some people want the kick ass power upstairs, but dont want to be a sitting duck in town, but they don't want a V8 either. Just as how there are people who will put in over 20K into an evo to have 600whp, instead of picking up a cobra and starting from there. Different strokes for different folks.
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Old 04-30-2005, 02:34 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jared nelson
1 autos are faster in the 1/4 mile (dare i open that can of worms,?)

2 you might also want power in the high rev range, like this car has.
1. jared i respect your opinion most of the time, but afaik we're not talking 8 second cars here. granted, autos shift faster, hold boost, etc etc etc. im referring to the everyday wrx/sti dragger. without a high stall, auto = teh suck.
back to the the main point i was getting at, the low end power would make no difference for the 60'... if this particular sti had an automatic transmission, then i wouldnt have said anything. but, it doesnt, so everyone with the "i have an auto" complex needs to chill out. its okay, it doesnt mean your penis is small. yes it does
2... okay dont get a ls1, get a cobra
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Old 04-30-2005, 04:08 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnite_wrex
if this particular sti had an automatic transmission, then i wouldnt have said anything. but, it doesnt, so everyone with the "i have an auto" complex needs to chill out. its okay, it doesnt mean your penis is small. yes it does
so you agree that this setup would benefit a drag auto in the 1/4 mile?
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Old 04-30-2005, 04:13 PM   #108
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why hasnt this been brought up.

I am not challenging or trying to start anything but this is for Jared and Bunot, i would assume both of you have higher stall TC's. lets assume the stall is 4k, now, this is coming from my own experience when i had my modified auto, with both a protorque TC and level ten valve body so im not totally clueless anytime i was doing rolling acceleration and floored it and wasnt locked out in 1st or second(aka, normal around town driving) the car would flash up to its stall speed AND THEN start to accelerate.

the ability to flash comes from torque generated is my understanding, my biggest issue with the auto, was that you give up rolling acceleration for launch ability.

what i am getting at is, lets say you have the supercharger on there, when you try to accelerate from a roll, the torque you are generating down low is gonna be useless cause it will just flash up to the stall speed anyways.

just a thought, could be right, could be wrong but i just thought of that and thought i would share

Ben

Last edited by PHATsuby; 04-30-2005 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 04-30-2005, 04:43 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHATsuby
why hasnt this been brought up.

I am not challenging or trying to start anything but this is for Jared and Bunot, i would assume both of you have higher stall TC's. lets assume the stall is 4k, now, this is coming from my own experience when i had my modified auto, with both a protorque TC and level ten valve body so im not totally clueless anytime i was doing rolling acceleration and floored it and wasnt locked out in 1st or second(aka, normal around town driving) the car would flash up to its stall speed AND THEN start to accelerate.

the ability to flash comes from torque generated is my understanding, my biggest issue with the auto, was that you give up rolling acceleration for launch ability.

what i am getting at is, lets say you have the supercharger on there, when you try to accelerate from a roll, the torque you are generating down low is gonna be useless cause it will just flash up to the stall speed anyways.

just a thought, could be right, could be wrong but i just thought of that and thought i would share

Ben

true.

but you would reach your stall faster because the supercharger would raise the rpms faster than a giant sized turbo. hence, if your stall was at 4K rpms, you would reach that number faster with your supercharger than with your t3/t4 turbo.

as an example, i would reach my stall faster with the stock turbo when brake torqueing. i'd simply step on the pedal and i'd hit 4K rpms in a blink of an eye. but with my t3/t4, it takes a few seconds for the rpms to climb. most of the time, the tree has fallen and i launch below my stall speed.
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Old 04-30-2005, 04:48 PM   #110
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I'm currently doing the same thing to an Evolution 8. However I'm using a much larger turbo (Holsett HX50) and we're hoping to make about 800 WHP. Extensive modifications have been done to the drivetrain, tranny, and engine. I live in Denver so I wouldn't be able to spool such a large turbo without a super charger due to the altitude. I have pics but can't post links to them due to my "newbie" status.

I'll be able to bypass the supercharger entirely during a 1/4 mile run if I want. It will be interesting to see the difference in my E.T. with and without the supercharger on. The car should be running and track ready sometime in June.

I like this STI, it's always cool to see someone trying something different in my opinion.
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Old 04-30-2005, 05:24 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunot
i got a better idea, show me a stock sti that has a sub 1.6 60ft. coz i don't know of any.

here's http://scoobymile.com/ to help you out.
You can't get a sub 1.6 in a stock STi, thats my point...Others are claiming that it will better an STi's 60ft, and I'm asking for proof of this statement.

Here's a link to a 1.6X 60ft in a stock STi:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...t=sti+timeslip
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Old 04-30-2005, 05:28 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jared nelson
nows when we question to the people saying the following

7500ish?
mid 11s
548 hp (crank)
60 foot times?
streetability, many of us have ridden in the car or talked to the owner, its has very reliable and drivable for the past year or whaever.
Everything is so vague...

548 crank - wheres the awhp graph? Mid 11s - that sounds like every kid in his civic at the local walmart. 7500ish -- what do we get with it, lets get an exact price. Reliability -- its only been on one car. ever.

I'm really not looking to start a fight, I just think some real numbers are in order...

And I'm not argueing that auto's cant be faster in the 1/4 mile. I've owned a single turbo auto mkiv, I know what they are capable of -- I was just wondering why you can't get a stall high enough to spool the turbo that you're running.

Last edited by 337; 04-30-2005 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 04-30-2005, 06:42 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 337
You can't get a sub 1.6 in a stock STi, thats my point...Others are claiming that it will better an STi's 60ft, and I'm asking for proof of this statement.

Here's a link to a 1.6X 60ft in a stock STi:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...t=sti+timeslip

#1, that's not a sub 1.6 60ft. that's barely a sub 1.7 60ft.

#2, that same sti can't pull the same 60ft with an auto without nitrous, and this is where this supercharger can be useful.
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Old 04-30-2005, 08:21 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dual Charger
I'm currently doing the same thing to an Evolution 8. However I'm using a much larger turbo (Holsett HX50) and we're hoping to make about 800 WHP. Extensive modifications have been done to the drivetrain, tranny, and engine. I live in Denver so I wouldn't be able to spool such a large turbo without a super charger due to the altitude. I have pics but can't post links to them due to my "newbie" status.

I'll be able to bypass the supercharger entirely during a 1/4 mile run if I want. It will be interesting to see the difference in my E.T. with and without the supercharger on. The car should be running and track ready sometime in June.

I like this STI, it's always cool to see someone trying something different in my opinion.

Good lord that is a large turbo.

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Old 04-30-2005, 08:35 PM   #115
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thats a hot sick setup also. it will be good to see some times/graphs on one of these setups....

Ben
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Old 04-30-2005, 08:48 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wcbjr
Good lord that is a large turbo
yeh... what he said.... A turbo that size deserves a banana!
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Old 04-30-2005, 08:53 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunot
#1, that's not a sub 1.6 60ft. that's barely a sub 1.7 60ft.
Apparently you'd rather make this about stock sti's then the real question I posed, just like a typical e-forum fighter. you go girl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunot
#2, that same sti can't pull the same 60ft with an auto without nitrous, and this is where this supercharger can be useful.
Again...what 60ft? where's the proof that its doing any better then a 60ft that an sti w/o a supercharger can pull, and where the hell are these auto sti's?

Your answer is going to be all speculation b/c there aren't any numbers to back it up.
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Old 05-01-2005, 01:02 AM   #118
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Well after reading this entire thread and trying to skip the bickering I have seen Turbo/Blower settups for drag racing in the past. The major problem was people who thought the Blower just spooled after the Turbo came into boost. Not so, the boost that was dumped into the Blower is then amplified and not in a linear fashion either. They actually do this on some big diesel rigs but, I do believe those are on 2 stroke diesels so it don't count for this anyway.

I read that he found a way to bypass the Blower and use a clutch to disengage it. If he has come up with a smooth way to do this it will be great for the street! Instead of using a NOS shot to spool the blower is used to give you the low end boost and then the Turbo will spool up faster since the engine is under a load. I am interested to see if or how this system works cause my EJ207 does have a bit of lag and this could be something to look at

I do like the EVO settup tho
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Old 05-01-2005, 01:29 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joncas
Templar,
Couple things - I know your building a supercharger kit but lets get a few things straight (and yes I do have knowledge of how this is done).

1. Yes there is a bypass it can clearly be seen in the picture.
2. Where could YOU package a linear boosting larger supercharger capable of pusing 25psi at 7000 rpm on a 2.5L without changing the hoods and many other things. Give you a hint. You can't put it where the battery is and you can't put it where the ABS is unless the ABS is removed.
3. Lysolm superchargers are no where close to turbo's in efficiency but are much better than Roots Style. Also a lysolm style is always parasitic when driving around. You can't stop the parasitic loss of a lysolm supercharger by just bypassing it. You need to physicallys stop the lobes from turning - hence the supercharger clutch clearly seen on the nose pulley of the supercharger. Meaning, IT IS a lysolm unit - other wise he would bypass it alone and it would free wheel. Which brings us to number 4->
4. Belt/Pulley wrap. Pulley Wrap is a good thing. The more surface area that a belt had around a pulley allows more more grip and less wear. Therefore the "sharp angle" looks to me to be well engineered as it is clearly closer to the center line of the pulley allowing for more belt wrap. Yes the top may stretch some but that is easily combatted with another idler pulley, however, it doesn't "sound" like he having any issues which suprises me a little but I'm not sceptical as I've done some "extra" thinking. He may not have the supercharger running past 3500rpm. He may just turn it off. Thereby he doesn't need a wider belt because he isn't putting the HP he would need at 7000 rpm through the small 5 rib belt. So he goes wild on the supercharger and maybe even brings it up to full capacity at 3500 engine rpm and then just bypasses it when the boost kicks in from the turbocharger. Thereby nearly eliminating belt slip, and a need for a huge supercharger aka you "superefficient" lysolm unit. I don't know if what I just wrote is exactly what he's doing but it definitely is a possibilty defeating your "belt size, efficiency" statements.
5. Mounting of the supercharger looks fairly decent and the box model looks to be in place. There is a top and bottom mount on the front that you can see and if I were a gambling man I would bet it looks more substancial in the back.
Wow, that is really great. Maybe you should actually go read what I said in my posts instead of trying to read something into them that I didn't say.

I never questioned the location. I questioned the mounting. I can't see all the mounting, but the brackets I do see still look suspect to me.

You might want to pick up some reference books for your library. Turbos generally run peak efficiencies from 70-78%. Lysholm type blowers run 75-80%.

I never mentioned anything about a clutch. I don't know why you are attacking me about one. I said that I hoped that the system had a bypass because I didn't go back and look for one. If you can find where I mentioned anything about a clutch, I will give you a cookie.

I want you to do an experiment. Go buy a tiny little 2 inch pulley. Mount it 12 inches off of the nearest pulley and wrap a standard 5 groove belt around it. Then get an appropriate sized belt, measure it and wrap it more than 180% around the pulley. Then after you have driven the car hard for a week, measure the belt. Then you can come talk about how belt stretch won't be a problem.

Again, I am not certain why you started attacking me for questions that I didn't even bring up. I mearly expressed concerns about some things that I saw that looked a little questionable to me. If the kit works, that is awesome. More power to him.

I am certain that many of us have contributions to this discussion, but until you learn to read all of someones comments, you should probably contribute silence.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:47 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 337
Apparently you'd rather make this about stock sti's then the real question I posed, just like a typical e-forum fighter. you go girl.
what the frick are you talking about?!?! you're the one who brought up the stock sti 60fts?!

way to go einstein.

Quote:
Again...what 60ft? where's the proof that its doing any better then a 60ft that an sti w/o a supercharger can pull, and where the hell are these auto sti's?

Your answer is going to be all speculation b/c there aren't any numbers to back it up.
mah bad, i thought it was general knowledge that autos have worse 60fts than manual cars.

here's your proof, http://bunot.net/ as you can see, no one pulls a sub 1.6 60ft. in fact, the only autos to register better than 1.7 60 fts are using nitrous, including me.

there are numbers to back up stock sti 60fts and auto 60fts. what we are speculating on is how much this blower will improve 60fts if at all. the theory seems relatively simple to me and a few people here. this would benefit spool up ona huge turbo, especially those who can't have anti-lag or launch control (autos).

i don't have concrete numbers to say that this would definitely quicken 60fts on automatics, but neither do you. so BOTH our answers are speculative.

Last edited by bunot; 05-01-2005 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:59 AM   #121
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25psi sounds great on paper, but realistically do you want that much boost that low? That car might be undrivable as a daily driver, think comfort. It's like my uncles Turbo Esprit. Great car when you're 'into' but around town it wants to rear-end everything in sight because it surges like a freight train. Maybe this car will be different.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:19 PM   #122
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Admittingly - I didn't realize they had lysolm superchargers adiabatic efficiency up to 80%. From my SAE readings (my reference materials that you metioned I should get) always put adiabatic efficiency of a lysolm supercharger at around 70% with properly sized turbos falling between 70% and 80%.

They mention 70% in this article: http://www.sae.org/congress/2001/showmon.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
I was also wondering (here comes the blasphemy) but wouldn't it have been simpler to just remove the turbo entirely and get a lysholm type twin screw charger?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
does this kit have a bypass to stop feeding through the blower once the car gets into the turbo range?
Read my response #3 which explains my comment about the bypass and clutch. Why would you recommend to "get a lysholm type twin screw charger" - it is a lysolm supercharger.

Read my response #2 which explains in order to get a bigger lysolm than the one alreadly on it, that is capable of making 25psi of boost on a 2.5L to 7000rpm - where would you put it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
The second is that with such a long length of belt making such a tight bend around the supercharger pulley, you are going to have some issues with belt stretching and slippage due to the fact that it is still a 5 groove belt versus a wider, stronger belt.
Read my response #4.
Also look at this for the distance between pulleys (stock lightning 8 groove):


Or look at these modified ones with incredible angles for pulley wrap:
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co.../0403mm_shoot/

I think the people who created these have a bit more experience than the both of us put together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
I want you to do an experiment. Go buy a tiny little 2 inch pulley. Mount it 12 inches off of the nearest pulley and wrap a standard 5 groove belt around it.
I'm done - Except my pulley was 2.25 inches. I ran a eaton supercharger at 10psi on my car for 30,000 miles and replaced one belt because it began to crack from age (sat all winter each year) and started to slip in the rain. I'm sure speedyrs can give you a confirmation on belt wear. He's still running the one I put on it (last time I checked).

In my experience a new belt would stretch the most in the first few days and then after a retension, would no longer need retensioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
Also, just out of curiousity, and it may have been mentioned somewhere in the thread, but does this kit have a bypass to stop feeding through the blower once the car gets into the turbo range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
until you learn to read all of someones comments, you should probably contribute silence.
It was clearly viewable in the pictures and you admit you didn't read everything, so take some of your own advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
I will give you a cookie.
PM me for my address How many miles do you have on your supercharger kit?

Last edited by Joncas; 05-01-2005 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 05-01-2005, 03:27 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunot
what the frick are you talking about?!?! you're the one who brought up the stock sti 60fts?!

way to go einstein.



mah bad, i thought it was general knowledge that autos have worse 60fts than manual cars.

here's your proof, http://bunot.net/ as you can see, no one pulls a sub 1.6 60ft. in fact, the only autos to register better than 1.7 60 fts are using nitrous, including me.

there are numbers to back up stock sti 60fts and auto 60fts. what we are speculating on is how much this blower will improve 60fts if at all. the theory seems relatively simple to me and a few people here. this would benefit spool up ona huge turbo, especially those who can't have anti-lag or launch control (autos).

i don't have concrete numbers to say that this would definitely quicken 60fts on automatics, but neither do you. so BOTH our answers are speculative.
Way to rely on faces to make your point. lol.

Anyways, for the 3rd time in this thread I said that I'm holding off from giving it praise or not until there are some actual numbers that say it betters the 1.6X that a stock sti can pull. I haven't been speculating one bit, thats been all you bud.
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Old 05-01-2005, 03:33 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 337
Way to rely on faces to make your point. lol.

Anyways, for the 3rd time in this thread I said that I'm holding off from giving it praise or not until there are some actual numbers that say it betters the 1.6X that a stock sti can pull. I haven't been speculating one bit, thats been all you bud.
actually, that's the first time you've said that. the other time you said it was sub 1.6 60ft. <------another one just for ya.
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Old 05-01-2005, 06:09 PM   #125
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You guys are out of control

I dont see this guy shoving his kit in our faces to buy it, claiming its practical and ideal for everyone. He made an innovative setup for his car instead of the typical nasioc'er who wouldnt dare try anything different or that a thousand people havent already done.

When I think compound charging, drag racing isnt the first application that comes to mind. Id say if drag racing is your main use for the car, then no this kit is probably not the wisest investment to achieve your goals. But if you think about it, subarus arent exactly the perfect drag racing platform either...although it seems thats all people do with them these days.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 337
Anyways, for the 3rd time in this thread I said that I'm holding off from giving it praise or not until there are some actual numbers that say it betters the 1.6X that a stock sti can pull..
Does it really need to satisfy the bench racers with certain numbers to be worthy of praise?? If you are sincerely interested in the kit and have questions that must be answered before you fork over the cash, his phone number is in the first post.

When I read a post about a vendor offering say a 60-1 kit for a 2.0 usdm wrx that makes sick power, I dont jump in the thread and say well thats not practical. (During daily driving I spend little time at 5.5-7.2k rpms, so really putting all my power there is stupid and your kit is worthless!) No, I give props and can keep to myself the fact that the kit isnt something i would consider. Like Jigga said, it all has its place in the market.


Great job MDJWRX (or whoever it is that designed this). And I hope to see more technical discussions about this setup from the few involved that are knowledgeable enough to contribute (DualCharger, Joncas, Templar) as well as the creator behind it.
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