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Old 05-02-2005, 12:37 AM   #1
boardertj
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Default tuning without a wideband

I know i'll probably be told to do a search but i tried and didnt know what terms to use.

i have a utec on the way and am getting a vf22. my question is can I tune a very conservative map without using a wideband o2 sensor? i plan on having 2 maps, one very conservative tuned by me and one with water injection tuned professonally. i just want to save some money and tune one map myself. I have a stock topmount and modded injectors. What do you think?
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Old 05-02-2005, 12:47 AM   #2
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...do lotsa reading....especially on scaling the injectors......the off the shelf 'stage4 TMIC' map is a good place to start, I think...at least it was for me and my td05-16G....

the WI is gonna be a PITA, though.....a wideband can be had for under $500
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Old 05-02-2005, 01:28 AM   #3
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ya im not gonna tune the WI myself. but it can be done safely without a wideband?
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Old 05-02-2005, 01:37 AM   #4
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I guess you could tune your timing and boost, but I wouldn't touch the fueling at all. Even though it's definitely rich on a base map, you would be flying blind without a wideband and it just wouldn't be wise to try and lean things out via guesswork.
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Old 05-02-2005, 01:39 AM   #5
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I wouldn't recommend tuning at all without a wideband.

Here's an inexpensive one.
http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm
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Old 05-02-2005, 01:42 AM   #6
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You can definately tune without a wideband, it would just take longer...... The utec actually makes it a lot easier(then without a utec) to tune without a wideband since ya get to watch the maf voltage and idc's. You;d end up watchin your idc's in the log, making sure there go up as the air going into the engine increases, and watch the egt's. It shouldn't be so hard.

peace
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Old 05-02-2005, 02:13 AM   #7
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thanks keep the info coming.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:10 AM   #8
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I tuned my car without a wideband; takes a LOT longer, and you have to really pay attention to how one aspect affects another; EGT's, MAF voltages, IDC's, boost, timing, etc....

You can experiment safely with your lower load columns, by learning how much, say, .5 less in your feul map affects AFR's. Since it's ok to run 12-13/1 AFR's in the lower load columns, it won't hurt anything. I know how fuel affects the lower loads as compared to the higher loads is not linear, but I found it to be darn close, probably because it's a percentage of the MAF voltage, which means .5 in the higher load columns is more than .5 in the lower.

While I was tuning the upper load columns, I would run 96 octane, with a gallon of tolulene on top of that. That allowed me to push my AFR's up to where they would show with just the stock narrow band with no knock, say 12.1 to 12.7, so then you know where you're at. Just add enough fuel from there to where you know you're back down in the 11.5/1 area. You'll know approximately how much to add, by how fuel affected the lower load columns. Run conservative timing while doing this, and when you're done, start bumping the timing up slowly, keeping an eye one everything else. This method took about 2 months before I really had it safe and smooth. I'm sure I could have done it in 2 days with a narrow band.


I know I'll get flamed for sharing this method, but it truly worked for me; I've never had a narrow band hooked-up; I haven't had knock in amost a year, and my car showed 295WHP on a dyno 2 weeks ago. Not saying a narrow band isn't better, and a MUCH faster way to tune, but there are ways around it if you're willing.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:41 AM   #9
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You mean WIDE band....

there are several methods of tuning W/o a wide band but if you figure how long it took you and the fuel you used to tune this way you could have prolly got 2 TUNAS.

IMHO save the $$$$$$$ you would have spent on the pro WI tune and buy a TUNA then tune both yourself.

tuning w/o a wide band is like driving w/o head lights. it CAN be done very slowly, isn't real safe and isn't much fun either.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty
a wideband can be had for under $500
Why would you want to risk damaging your engine? A wideband O2 isn't that expensive. If you can't afford $500 for a wideband, how are you going to afford to fix potential engine damage?

If you just want to tune your boost map, you don't need a wideband. If you want to tune your fuel map without a wideband, IMHO you are asking for trouble.
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:08 AM   #11
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If you can't go $500, I think the Innovate LM-1 is cheaper and expandable so you can have a pretty cheap unit now, then add more parts to help with logging more data later. Heck, the standard VW Tuna from TXS is a little less and super easy to use, and the Tuner-Pro about $100 more.

I like the "driving w/o headlights" comparo. Clever.
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:27 AM   #12
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Just cause you have a wbo2 sensor, that doesn't mean you're not gonna blow your engine. If I knew what I know now when I got my wbo2 sensor, I probably never woulda gotten one. It was at least an educational experience though.

peace
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:31 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
If I knew what I know now when I got my wbo2 sensor, I probably never woulda gotten one.
Out of curiosity... what is that?

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:43 AM   #14
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What I know now you mean? All setups are different. Egt's are much more important then a/f ratio, and so is detonation. Ya don't need to know the a/f ratio to tune a car well, and it might even hurt how the car is tuned if the person who's tuning it always shoots for a given a/f ratio.

peace
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:45 AM   #15
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Check out the LC-1, a cheaper self contained WB controller with digital input, output, and 2 programmable analog outputs.

Linky
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:54 AM   #16
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I got a twintec WEGO for $330...it was a wise investment IMO
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Old 05-02-2005, 05:20 PM   #17
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I've been tuning off of EGTs for a while now. I'm getting EGTs up around 1550 at the top of 3rd gear. I dyno'd my car yesterday, and the tailpipe A/F probe had me richer than 10:1 from 3500 => redline. While there's room for me to lean out the map more than it is, I don't think I have enough EGT headroom to do so w/out increasing timing also. Point to all this is yes, you can tune w/ only O2 or only EGTs, but its nice to be able to use both.
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Old 05-02-2005, 06:44 PM   #18
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^^^^^ this is exactly why you need both.

You're either wasting gas or blowing stuff up, or just plain lucky to get it all just right if you don't have all the info. Although, experience can help

If you're too rich with such high EGTs (and 10.0:1 is pretty rich, even for 91 octane), you might want to look into how your timing is affecting your EGTs.... and I've heard that waaay to much fuel can cause high temps. I think it was something to do with so much fuel (i.e. so much non-gaseous matter) can actually raise the compression.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMBOOST
...If you're too rich with such high EGTs (and 10.0:1 is pretty rich, even for 91 octane), you might want to look into how your timing is affecting your EGTs.......
And you might wanna look into turning your boost down along with possibly getting colder spark plugs.

peace
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:47 PM   #20
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Can the UTEC log the front 02 sensor? What's going to be your target AFR with WI @ full boost?? This is what you need to know. You can use the front 02 sensor down to 11.25:1. If you're staying leaner than that, no need for a WB
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
What I know now you mean? All setups are different. Egt's are much more important then a/f ratio, and so is detonation. Ya don't need to know the a/f ratio to tune a car well, and it might even hurt how the car is tuned if the person who's tuning it always shoots for a given a/f ratio.

peace

Jon [in CT] sez so, too.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaeater69
Can the UTEC log the front 02 sensor? What's going to be your target AFR with WI @ full boost?? This is what you need to know. You can use the front 02 sensor down to 11.25:1. If you're staying leaner than that, no need for a WB

Not quite true... The further you get from 14.7:1 the less reliable the OEM sensor is. From comparisons I made its a (downward) sliding scale too.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:27 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurbojonLS
I've been tuning off of EGTs for a while now. I'm getting EGTs up around 1550 at the top of 3rd gear. I dyno'd my car yesterday, and the tailpipe A/F probe had me richer than 10:1 from 3500 => redline. While there's room for me to lean out the map more than it is, I don't think I have enough EGT headroom to do so w/out increasing timing also. Point to all this is yes, you can tune w/ only O2 or only EGTs, but its nice to be able to use both.
fyi... their wb02 was reading way richer then mine.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boardertj
i have a utec on the way
I'm not calling BS on anyone. I just want to point out that the original poster is most likely not very knowledgeable about tuning. I know I'm making an assumption, but I have a gut feeling.

Bottom line, everything everyone is talking about is graduate level stuff. It took me forever to learn how to tune and I still consider myself a novice.

Can someone who's never touched a UTEC before be able to tune without a wideband without you virtually holding his hand?

I'm willing to give him guidance through this forum. I'll even research something I don't know in order to help him, but I don't want him thinking he's armed to go tune his car and he doesn't have the proper weapons.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:45 PM   #25
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Having a wbo2 sensor doesn't make someone armed to tune a car. It might help, and it couldn't hurt much to have one, but it's really not needed imo. Ya might even learn more about tuning quicker if you concentrate more on egt's then a/f ratio. Egt's will rise at a given rate depending on a/f ratio, timing, boost and what not. There are many people out there who have tuned many cars well without the use of a wbo2 sensor. Course I could be wrong.

peace
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