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Old 05-03-2005, 11:43 AM   #1
NavyBlueSubaru
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Lightbulb Lean W.I. Machine

Here's a snippet of how my W.I. tuning is going. Currently im running 50:50 water/isopropyl rubbing alcohol. My modded stock injectors are scaled to 800cc.

Code:
     ,     ,   ,   ,Load,Knock,    ,      ,      , Mod,  Mod ,     , Mod,    
  RPM, MAP ,MAF,TPS,Site,Count, AFR, Ign#1, Inj#1, Ign,  Fuel,Boost, MAF,  WB
     , psia, V , % ,    ,     ,    , deg  , duty , deg,   %  ,(CL) ,   V,  O2
 3745, +1.2,3.2, 65, 20,   00,  W/B ,+29.2,  20.9,ECU. , +0.5,272.50,2.7, 13.78
 3736, +3.3,3.3, 77, 30,   00,  W/B ,+28.1,  22.0,+28.0, -0.3,286.00,2.8, 12.99
 3813, +5.3,3.4, 80, 40,   00,  W/B ,+26.2,  24.9,+26.0, -0.4,298.00,2.8, 12.71
 3818, +7.0,3.6, 90, 50,   00,  W/B ,+22.3,  27.1,+24.0, -0.5,300.00,2.9, 12.45
 3849, +8.6,3.6, 93, 60,   00,  W/B ,+19.7,  28.4,+22.0, -0.7,300.00,3.0, 12.18
 3880,+10.4,3.7, 94, 60,   00,  W/B ,+19.1,  31.4,+22.0, -0.8,300.00,3.0, 11.96
 3987,+12.1,3.8, 92, 70,   00,  W/B ,+18.5,  31.4,+21.2, -3.0,300.00,3.0, 11.76
 4050,+14.1,3.8, 91, 80,   00,  W/B ,+21.0,  30.6,+20.1, -5.0,300.00,3.0, 11.92
 4130,+15.5,3.9, 90, 90,   00,  W/B ,+21.0,  31.6,+19.3, -5.0,300.00,3.0, 12.49
 4166,+16.3,3.9, 87, 90,   00,  W/B ,+21.5,  32.2,+19.7, -5.0,300.00,3.0, 12.93
 4329,+17.0,4.0, 84, 90,   00,  W/B ,+20.2,  34.3,+20.3, -5.0,300.00,3.0, 13.06
 4578,+16.7,4.0, 79, 90,   00,  W/B ,+20.4,  39.4,+21.5, -5.0,300.00,3.1, 13.09
Please post your comments, im interested in answering any questions you might have.

Jeff
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:53 AM   #2
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Have you tried running more timing? Got any logs of a longer pull? Is this a custom WI setup you have running?
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:55 AM   #3
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you'd better hope like hell that system never fails up there.

What do your EGTs look like?


But that loooookkkkkkssss good. i need to dial mine in with the WI on.
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:19 PM   #4
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I would richen it up a tad, and and more timing; as much as 3-4 degrees. I was shocked how much power a few degrees of timing added
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:28 PM   #5
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I have not tried running more timing, that will come a little later(few days maybe).
This is a custom setup that I devised myself around 2 years ago. It has never failed and i've improved it over the course of time. I do have longer pulls, i'll dig one up for you.

I am pretty confident that the system wont fail, i've got my ways of knowing how well its working and if anything is wrong.

I do not know what my egt's are like, but i know first hand that they drop roughly 200-300 degrees farenheit once the mixture is in there. I am probably running cooler than most people, despite running so incredibly lean. The water and alcohol work wonders for reducing cylinder temps drastically.

I never really intended to run as lean as 13:1, i've got to tune that more towards 12.5, but once the afr is dialed in then i'll go back and slowly increase the timing.

Well i've got another ignition map ready in case I want to run more timing. My current setup already leaps and bounds better than what a stgIV map would run for timing.
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:40 PM   #6
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I cant find a much longer one, I just made these pulls this morning. Here is a 2nd gear pull, after hitting 7k in first.

Code:
     ,     ,   ,   ,Load,Knock,    ,      ,      , Mod,  Mod ,     , Mod,    
  RPM, MAP ,MAF,TPS,Site,Count, AFR, Ign#1, Inj#1, Ign,  Fuel,Boost, MAF,  WB
     , psia, V , % ,    ,     ,    , deg  , duty , deg,   %  ,(CL) ,   V,  O2
 5200,+12.9,4.2,100, 80,   00,  W/B ,+24.5,  46.2,+24.9, -6.0,305.00,3.2, 10.86
 5455,+14.9,4.2,101, 90,   00,  W/B ,+26.2,  48.0,+25.2, -6.0,310.00,3.3, 11.80
 5698,+16.1,4.2,100, 80,   00,  W/B ,+26.9,  47.0,+26.8, -6.0,320.00,3.3, 12.59
 5889,+16.5,4.3,100, 80,   00,  W/B ,+28.3,  48.8,+28.2, -6.0,325.00,3.3, 12.74
 6277,+15.5,4.3, 99, 80,   00,  W/B ,+28.7,  50.9,+28.6, -6.0,330.00,3.3, 12.74
 6510,+14.7,4.3, 98, 70,   00,  W/B ,+30.9,  55.4,+30.0, -5.0,330.00,3.4, 12.59
 6587,+14.1,4.4, 97, 70,   00,  W/B ,+31.2,  56.0,+30.0, -5.0,335.00,3.4, 12.30
 6747,+13.9,4.4, 96, 80,   00,  W/B ,+32.2,  53.2,+30.0, -6.0,340.00,3.3, 12.14
 7002,+13.9,4.4, 50, 80,   00,  W/B ,+36.7,  29.4,+30.0, -6.0,295.00,2.3, 12.34
This gives you a glimpse of what im seeing in the higher rpms. Maybe later today i'll get a longer pull in 2nd or third to give a better representation of what the car is doing.
I was excited to see the 4.4v MAF, once my clutch is replaced i'll go back and up the boost to around 18-20psi, then hopefully i will see 4.5v

Jeff
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Old 05-03-2005, 02:51 PM   #7
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Whoa! I take back the part about adding timing. You've got PLENTY up top. I don't even run that much up top on race gas. Is that ok? I've always heard to fade out the timing between 6500-7000 rpms?
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Old 05-03-2005, 02:54 PM   #8
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What size jets are you using? 20 degrees of timing at 4000rpm is no joke. The only reason the ecu timing is so high is from so much maf voltage being pulled. I don't get why everyone's tellin you to up the timing so much, not that it would be bad to test if you can advance the timing more. Looks sweet to me.

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Old 05-03-2005, 03:52 PM   #9
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Are you sure you're not past MBT? I would want to put that on a dyno before I fooled around with ignition anymore at those AFRs and Timing numbers.
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Old 05-03-2005, 04:24 PM   #10
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I prefer to hold timing up top. I somewhat fear running more timing than i am, i do not want to go too far and create excess strain on the motor without getting any gains. I think I am pretty close to optimal timing, but im not sure.

I am using a 3gph nozzle that activates at 7psi via a pressure switch, and a 5gph nozzle that activates via the utec, currently set at 10psi. So total im spraying 8gph. I dont have any significant fuel alteration until 70% load, and at the 80-100 its full swing for the spray. I want to make sure that the cylinders are cooled before i lean out the fuel, hence the slight delay in the change of map settings.

In a minute i'll post a pull i just did in 3rd, the car pulled like mad...i think you all will like what you see...

Jeff
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Old 05-03-2005, 04:35 PM   #11
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I kinda question how much the water slows down the burn.... Ie-Ya might need much more advance to get anywhere near mbt when running a lot of water. Also, everyone's sayin that the a/f ratio looks a bit lean(like with the 13 to 1 or whatever), but the alc probably makes the a/f ratio look leaner then it really is. I bet the a/f reading at that point is probably because of the water/alc to fuel ratio being a bit high, and not because the a/f ratio is actually any leaner then when he's running 12.5 to 1. For all we know, the a/f ratio might even be able to be leaned out more? I dunno, just a thought.

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Old 05-03-2005, 04:52 PM   #12
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Ok here's my recent pull about an hour ago. Im sure this will stir heads...
Code:
 3542  -1.4 3.0  65  10    00   W/B  +30.8   15.3 ECU.   +0.5 272.50 2.5  15.24
 3623  +0.6 3.0  70  10    00   W/B  +29.5   17.4 ECU.   +0.5 280.00 2.6  14.42
 3667  +2.1 3.2  80  20    00   W/B  +29.5   18.6 ECU.   +0.5 300.00 2.6  13.65
 3724  +3.1 3.3  88  20    00   W/B  +29.2   20.5 ECU.   +0.5 300.00 2.7  13.25
 3818  +4.1 3.3  94  30    00   W/B  +28.4   21.6 +28.0  -0.3 300.00 2.7  13.02
 3866  +5.3 3.4 100  40    00   W/B  +27.0   23.2 +26.0  -0.4 300.00 2.8  12.89
 3972  +6.8 3.5 101  40    00   W/B  +24.9   27.4 +26.0  -0.4 300.00 2.9  12.81
 4070  +8.4 3.6 102  50    00   W/B  +22.3   31.1 +24.0  -0.5 300.00 3.0  12.34
 4115  +9.8 3.7 101  60    00   W/B  +19.7   34.5 +22.8  -1.0 300.00 3.1  11.71
 4334 +11.9 3.9 100  70    00   W/B  +17.2   35.7 +22.2  -3.0 300.00 3.1  11.33
 4403 +13.5 4.0  99  80    00   W/B  +19.3   37.4 +22.1  -5.0 300.00 3.1  11.53
 4591 +14.9 4.0  99  80    00   W/B  +19.6   40.1 +22.5  -5.0 300.00 3.1  12.23
 4668 +16.1 4.0  98  90    00   W/B  +21.6   39.1 +21.7  -5.0 300.00 3.1  12.53
 4761 +16.3 4.0  98  90    00   W/B  +22.9   40.5 +22.0  -5.2 300.00 3.1  12.59
 4837 +16.8 4.0  98  90    00   W/B  +23.0   40.0 +22.4  -5.3 300.00 3.1  12.53
 4938 +16.3 4.1  97  80    00   W/B  +24.6   40.7 +23.9  -5.9 300.00 3.1  12.37
 5058 +16.1 4.1  96  80    00   W/B  +26.1   42.9 +24.3  -6.0 305.00 3.1  12.34
 5192 +15.9 4.1  96  80    00   W/B  +26.4   42.1 +24.8  -6.0 305.00 3.2  12.33
 5367 +15.5 4.2  97  80    00   W/B  +26.5   46.3 +25.7  -6.0 310.00 3.2  12.25
 5385 +15.7 4.1  96  80    00   W/B  +26.8   46.9 +26.1  -6.0 310.00 3.2  12.18
 5649 +15.7 4.2  96  80    00   W/B  +26.7   45.8 +26.6  -6.0 315.00 3.2  12.18
 5649 +15.3 4.2  95  80    00   W/B  +27.2   47.9 +26.5  -6.0 315.00 3.2  12.21
 5777 +15.9 4.2  95  80    00   W/B  +27.3   49.0 +27.1  -6.0 320.00 3.2  12.23
 5963 +15.7 4.2  95  90    00   W/B  +28.1   46.6 +26.3  -6.0 320.00 3.3  12.33
 5952 +15.5 4.3  93  80    00   W/B  +28.5   48.4 +27.8  -6.0 325.00 3.3  12.49
 6038 +15.5 4.3  92  80    00   W/B  +28.7   49.2 +28.2  -6.0 325.00 3.3  12.49
 6207 +14.9 4.3  90  80    00   W/B  +28.3   50.4 +28.5  -6.0 325.00 3.3  12.37
 6385 +14.5 4.3  88  80    00   W/B  +31.4   49.6 +29.0  -6.0 330.00 3.3  12.42
 6373 +14.7 4.3  84  80    00   W/B  +31.9   51.2 +29.2  -6.0 330.00 3.3  12.49
Ok here's the pull in image format in DataLogLab.


And here is DLL's powergraph.
*****Keep in mind this is at the WHEELS*****


Notice that I let off at 6300rpm, while HP & TQ were still rising.

So...what do you think? Are you ready for W.I.?

Jeff

Last edited by NavyBlueSubaru; 05-03-2005 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 05-03-2005, 05:34 PM   #13
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Awesome #'s! 300hp @ 16psi........that's sick!

I like how you scale your CL boost #'s up to correct for boost 'fade' at high rpm.

Your TPS is strange in all your logs. It goes to 100%+ and then down a little. Are you doing this on purpose?
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Old 05-03-2005, 05:40 PM   #14
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I apparently have a problem holding down the throttle. Its some sort of subconscience thing i do as i hold it down...i slowly let up a little most of the time. Every now and then i'll hold it down all the way until im done but most of the time i slowly let off...dunno why i just do.
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Old 05-03-2005, 05:49 PM   #15
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I forgot to mention, this is all 93 Octane pump gas.

Oh yea, Im also using Cheapo NGK Copper plugs, "V-Power BKR6E", $1.68 a piece. They were the cheapest i could find(for wrx, of course,excluding autolites). I got them back when I thought my mystery knock was comming from my plugs. I just wanted to see if the new cheapo's would make the problem go away. They didnt, but later the knock did go away from something else(still not sure what) and the plugs are still in there.

Jeff

Last edited by NavyBlueSubaru; 05-03-2005 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 05-03-2005, 07:33 PM   #16
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NavyBlueSubaru, congratulations - A truly "Mean and Lean" machine you have.

I wonder if any professional tuner will take note?
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Old 05-03-2005, 08:49 PM   #17
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Your really loading up the engine with that much timing, I bet your way over mbt. Just for kicks you should drop 4-5 deg. and kick the boost way up. Your maf voltage is low for a 16g. I pull 4.5 just after 5k with the vf22 and WI, w/o the water on I hit 4.5 around 5800k on 91oct. Stop raising the timing and start raising the boost.

How much timing are you running in the low load sites?

Last edited by CMJ; 05-03-2005 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 05-03-2005, 09:03 PM   #18
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CMJ, you missed the part about my clutch. I cannot raise the boost any higher or i'll make too much power and the clutch will slip. I can physically raise the boost to at least 20psi, i used to run 20psi all the time. Anyways, my clutch is going so i cannot run too much boost. I doubt im way over mbt, I think im actually really close to it. The stock ecu is trying to run almost the exact same timing that i've got in there.

The most maf voltage i've ever seen is 4.5, but not often. Keep in mind that i just pulled 4.4 with not too much boost. My air filter is also 40k miles old and in need of replacing, so that will net me some additional air flow as well. When i fix the clutch i'll be able to flow a considerable amount more air and hopefully see at least 4.5 just like you are, and possibly 4.6 if im lucky.

OH one more thing CMJ, how much boost are you running at 4.5 Maf Volts @ 5krpm on W.I.? whats your afr at that point?

Jeff
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Old 05-03-2005, 09:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
I doubt im way over mbt, I think im actually really close to it. The stock ecu is trying to run almost the exact same timing that i've got in there.


Jeff
The stock ecu is trying to run that much timing because you have pulled over 1 volt from the maf by scalling the injectors. The ecu thinks that its in a much lower load site. I bet your egt's are too low in the 4-5k range with the amount of water and timing your running.

I'll post some logs for you tonight or in the next few days showing the 4.5's. I can't top 4.5 but that 16g might be able to.
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Old 05-03-2005, 10:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zackbo
Awesome #'s! 300hp @ 16psi........that's sick!

I like how you scale your CL boost #'s up to correct for boost 'fade' at high rpm.

Your TPS is strange in all your logs. It goes to 100%+ and then down a little. Are you doing this on purpose?

yea man, that is totally sick and crazy..

i have a 16G small one pnp on order, from deadbolt, along with my WI i am hoping Jorge will get me around 260-270 whp.. or am i shooting too high for the small 16G?

any WAYS.... your numbers are super crazy awesome...

phamster
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Old 05-03-2005, 10:14 PM   #21
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Post up your compression numbers in a month or two, please. I'm curious to see how that holds up.
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:39 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
Post up your compression numbers in a month or two, please. I'm curious to see how that holds up.
I've been running W.I. for a while now. I have had this system for like 2 years. I used to run 20psi all day long, and the only thing holding me back now is my slipping clutch. My motor has held up just fine so its not like 1 month of this is going to make it pop because its already taken it for over 24 months and its seen more abuse than its under now so im not really concerned.

I am aware of the ecus concept of load and ignition and i've read about the fact that it ups timing due to the lower maf voltage. However, my timing values are not too outrageous and only a few points higher than most maps and right around where most people run on race gas so im not too concerned.

Jeff
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:52 AM   #23
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Here's some 4.5's for ya

Code:
 4597  +1.9 3.9  93  20    00   rich +28.7   40.8 +23.4  -0.7 200.00 3.2
 4642  +7.4 4.2 103  50    00   rich +25.4   48.7 +22.7  -1.4 200.00 3.3
 4755 +12.1 4.2 104  80    00   rich +24.7   50.0 +20.8  -2.6 200.00 3.3
 4803 +15.5 4.2 103  90    00   rich +25.0   50.9 +21.2  -2.1 200.00 3.4
 4975 +17.8 4.2 102  90    00   rich +27.1   51.0 +21.7  -2.7 200.00 3.3
 5120 +18.0 4.3 103  80    00   rich +27.2   54.5 +23.0  -2.9 225.00 3.4
 5104 +18.6 4.4 103  90    00   rich +27.3   56.8 +22.9  -2.9 225.00 3.4
 5265 +18.4 4.4 104  90    00   rich +28.1   55.1 +23.1  -3.0 225.00 3.4
 5411 +18.4 4.4 104  90    00   rich +28.3   58.3 +23.5  -3.0 225.00 3.5
 5491 +19.0 4.4 103  90    00   rich +28.1   58.2 +23.9  -2.9 250.00 3.5
 5583 +18.0 4.5 103  80    00   rich +28.2   59.6 +24.7  -3.0 250.00 3.5
 5747 +18.0 4.5 103  80    00   rich +29.0   60.7 +24.9  -2.9 250.00 3.5
 5747 +17.8 4.5 103  80    00   rich +28.7   63.3 +25.6  -3.0 250.00 3.5
 5941 +17.6 4.4 101  90    00   rich +29.4   63.1 +25.9  -2.5 250.00 3.6
 6093 +18.6 4.5 103  90    00   rich +29.3   64.2 +26.0  -2.5 300.00 3.6
 6195 +19.0 4.5 103  90    00   rich +30.9   66.2 +26.0  -2.5 300.00 3.6
 6289 +18.6 4.5 103  80    00   rich +34.2   65.1 +26.0  -2.7 300.00 3.6
 6265 +19.2 4.5 103  90    00   rich +35.5   65.6 +25.7  -2.3 300.00 3.6
 6410 +19.2 4.5 103 100    00   rich +35.9   65.8 +25.7  -2.2 300.00 3.6
 6397 +18.6 4.5  53  90    00   rich +36.9   65.8 +25.2  -2.3  63.50 3.5


How 'come the friggin' code thing never works with my logs? Somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong, pleeeze. THANX!

Last edited by Zackbo; 05-04-2005 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:59 AM   #24
offset
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Try using the pound symbol # icon above the box you are typing in. It will show you the proper tags to use for doing code.

offset
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Old 05-04-2005, 12:14 PM   #25
ride5000
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i think the way jeff can get an idea of mbt is to keep throwing the logs in DLL, and making small adjustments like +/-2 degrees. if the power keeps increasing by decent amounts with increased advance, then you can be pretty sure things are kosher. when it drops to <10hp per degree i'd stop.

when not knock limited this is pretty much the only way you can tune--essentially the way a race gas map is made. little harder without a dyno, but not impossible.

keep pushing it, jeff! and change that damned clutch!!!

ken
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