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Old 06-21-2005, 02:06 PM   #1
BadTrip
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Default Map review please?

Anyone for map review? I've been getting some knock around 6k. As it was fairly cool today I logged a run and here's the log. Anyone see glaring problems?.....other than the TPS needs to be recalibrated
I'm a newb so be gentle please.

Load Knock Mod Mod Mod
RPM MAP MAF TPS Site Count AFR Ign#1 Inj#1 Ign Fuel Boost MAF
psia V % deg duty deg % (CL) V
2796 -1.8 2.6 21 00 00 13.4 +33.3 12.9 ECU. -1.5 ECU. 2.4
2881 -1.6 2.7 28 10 00 13.7 +33.0 16.0 +18.0 +0.3 ECU. 2.6
2984 -1.0 2.8 50 10 00 12.2 +32.8 17.7 +18.0 +0.5 250.00 2.6
3089 -0.4 2.9 70 10 00 12.4 +32.2 19.0 +18.0 +0.6 250.00 2.7
3180 +0.4 2.9 97 10 00 12.2 +31.7 19.8 +18.0 +0.6 250.00 2.8
3274 +1.1 3.0 97 20 00 rich +31.6 22.5 +17.0 +0.6 250.00 2.7
3404 +1.7 2.9 97 20 00 rich +30.9 24.3 +17.0 +0.6 250.00 2.9
3523 +2.3 3.1 97 20 00 rich +30.8 27.1 +17.0 +0.6 250.00 2.9
3663 +2.7 3.1 97 20 00 rich +30.8 30.0 +17.0 +0.6 250.00 3.0
3762 +3.3 3.3 97 30 00 rich +30.4 30.8 +17.0 -0.1 250.00 2.9
3935 +3.9 3.2 96 30 00 rich +30.6 32.8 +18.0 -0.2 250.00 3.1
4156 +4.9 3.2 97 30 00 rich +30.5 36.7 +19.1 -0.3 250.00 3.0
4203 +5.5 3.4 97 40 00 rich +28.0 39.7 +19.8 +0.1 250.00 3.3
4273 +6.6 3.5 97 40 00 rich +22.4 44.5 +20.4 +0.2 250.00 3.3
4468 +7.4 3.6 97 50 00 rich +19.1 49.4 +20.1 +0.9 250.00 3.5
4734 +8.6 3.8 97 60 00 rich +19.6 58.1 +18.2 +0.9 250.00 3.5
5020 +10.0 4.0 97 60 00 rich +20.5 61.4 +20.5 -0.8 250.00 3.6
5144 +11.7 4.0 95 70 00 rich +15.6 71.9 +21.0 -0.9 250.00 3.7
5224 +13.1 4.1 96 80 00 rich +15.9 71.8 +21.0 -1.0 250.00 3.7
5437 +13.5 4.1 96 70 00 rich +15.9 73.4 +21.0 -1.0 250.00 3.8
5787 +14.1 4.2 96 70 00 rich +16.7 75.6 +21.1 -0.9 250.00 3.8
5952 +13.7 4.2 96 80 00 rich +17.2 74.4 +21.9 -0.6 250.00 3.8
6161 +13.9 4.2 96 80 00 rich +18.7 77.7 +22.0 -0.5 250.00 3.9
6277 +13.7 4.2 95 70 00 rich +20.0 83.2 +22.0 -0.7 250.00 3.9
6535 +13.5 4.3 96 70 00 rich +23.1 81.0 +22.0 -0.7 250.00 3.9
6325 +13.5 4.2 96 70 00 rich +24.9 82.0 +22.9 -0.6 250.00 3.9
6901 +13.1 4.3 96 70 00 rich +24.8 77.4 +23.0 -0.6 250.00 3.9
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Old 06-21-2005, 03:37 PM   #2
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What turbo, gear is this log of? That thing is really laggy....
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Old 06-21-2005, 03:52 PM   #3
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It's a VF-22 with a wheel upgrade and light clip, and P&P job. Running off-the-shelf map from TXS for stage 4. haven't done any tuning to the map at all yet.

That was 3rd gear pull rolling gently into it from under 3K.

Do you have UTEC tuning experience?
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:00 PM   #4
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Do you have the ABC hooked up? Is it open, and if so, how many turns? Your boost map will do you no good as it exists in the basemap, so you'll have to use larger numbers to hit your target boost. It does appear to be spooling very, very slowly.

Code:
5020 +10.0 4.0 97 60 00 rich +20.5 61.4 +20.5 -0.8 250.00 3.6
5144 +11.7 4.0 95 70 00 rich +15.6 71.9 +21.0 -0.9 250.00 3.7
5224 +13.1 4.1 96 80 00 rich +15.9 71.8 +21.0 -1.0 250.00 3.7
I'd be concerned that the ECU is pulling some timing on you here (the jump from 20 down to 15-ish).
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zola
Do you have the ABC hooked up? Is it open, and if so, how many turns? Your boost map will do you no good as it exists in the basemap, so you'll have to use larger numbers to hit your target boost. It does appear to be spooling very, very slowly.

Code:
5020 +10.0 4.0 97 60 00 rich +20.5 61.4 +20.5 -0.8 250.00 3.6
5144 +11.7 4.0 95 70 00 rich +15.6 71.9 +21.0 -0.9 250.00 3.7
5224 +13.1 4.1 96 80 00 rich +15.9 71.8 +21.0 -1.0 250.00 3.7
I'd be concerned that the ECU is pulling some timing on you here (the jump from 20 down to 15-ish).
The ABC is hooked up, yes. As for turns, I've lost count at this point because I've been moving boost up and down a bit to see how my boost gauge is responding....which is another thing....the boost gauge is hitting dead on 15psi once the turbo is spooled up.....which is not reflected in this log, right? The log maxes out at 14.1psi.

I agree that it's spooling slowly at this point. Do I just start bumping up the boost map figures at lower rpms? ....such as jump it on up to 500 at 2500rpm....dropping back down to 400 or so by 3500rpm and maybe 350 or so at 4500rpm?

Why do I get the feeling that I need to get a pro to do this before I blow something up? LOL
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
5224 +13.1 4.1 96 80 00 rich +15.9 71.8 +21.0 -1.0 250.00 3.7
5437 +13.5 4.1 96 70 00 rich +15.9 73.4 +21.0 -1.0 250.00 3.8
5787 +14.1 4.2 96 70 00 rich +16.7 75.6 +21.1 -0.9 250.00 3.8
5952 +13.7 4.2 96 80 00 rich +17.2 74.4 +21.9 -0.6 250.00 3.8
6161 +13.9 4.2 96 80 00 rich +18.7 77.7 +22.0 -0.5 250.00 3.9
80% load is 14-16psi, and 70% is 12-14....... Ya might wana raise the boost value to 300 so the boost stays in the 80-90% columns instead of the 70-80. I wouldn't put 400 in the boost map unless you're looking to overboost when you punch the gas at lower rpms in higher gears. What's the gain set at in your parameters? Ya might wanna lower it a bit?

peace
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:32 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
80% load is 14-16psi, and 70% is 12-14....... Ya might wana raise the boost value to 300 so the boost stays in the 80-90% columns instead of the 70-80. I wouldn't put 400 in the boost map unless you're looking to overboost when you punch the gas at lower rpms in higher gears. What's the gain set at in your parameters? Ya might wanna lower it a bit?

peace
Gain?...what gain? I just turned the reverb up is all. heh
I think gain is set at a "moderate" level. Is that the one where the number is a 0-50 value?....seems like it's set at 40 or something. but thanks for the info, I'll check it on the way home this afternoon.

Regarding overboosting at low rpms.....overboost is a bad thing?

Thanks for the advice and opinions guys.
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:40 PM   #8
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The boost gain is one of the two boost settings in parameters. The other is the switch between open and closed loop boost control. That switch should be on the closed loop setting(and probably is), and the boost gain is probably at 50(since that's the default). Lowering the gain to something like 48, or maybe a bit lower could help the turbo spool a bit quicker. Overboosting can be really bad depending on the situation. Ya want to shoot for 16.5psi(since that's what turboxs says to go for), and adjust(lower a little at a time from 50) the gain so that when it first hits the boost goes a bit above that(maybe 17 or 17.5psi) then levels out. If you want us to diagnose your knock problem, it would probably be best to post a log that shows knock.

peace
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:42 PM   #9
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Opinions differ on this, but I do not use the ABC and would not use it unless I couldn't make my target boost without it. My boost gain is set to 45 currently, which for me yields good spool and no spiking. Still, I would expect to see you hitting peak boost at least 1500 RPMs earlier than you are. You could also stand to gain quite a bit by advancing timing in the lower load sites...look at the lines where you are running 17 degrees and the ECU is thinking it would run 30. The lower load sites (sub 8 psi or so) could also be leaned out quite a bit--so you aren't richening up from stoich so quickly--and I think you would find it to be a nice improvement. Search around and download mick_the_ginge's Tuning Guide for some good info.

For best tuning results have a WBO2 and an EGT gauge at the ready.
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
... If you want us to diagnose your knock problem, it would probably be best to post a log that shows knock.

peace
Makes sense doesn't it? sorry. Here's a log of knock. This was from a pull yesterday afternoon prior to any modifications to the map, but this is what was happening.

Load Knock Mod Mod Mod
RPM MAP MAF TPS Site Count AFR Ign#1 Inj#1 Ign Fuel Boost MAF
psia V % deg duty deg % (CL) V
5428 +14.5 4.1 96 80 00 rich +16.0 72.7 +21.0 -1.0 250.00 3.8
5630 +14.7 4.1 96 80 00 rich +16.4 74.3 +21.0 -0.9 250.00 3.8
5611 +14.9 4.1 96 80 00 rich +16.4 74.1 +21.0 -0.9 250.00 3.8
5678 +14.7 4.3 97 80 00 rich +16.9 74.2 +21.0 -0.8 250.00 3.8
5858 +14.5 4.2 97 80 00 rich +17.9 76.6 +21.1 -0.7 250.00 3.9
5952 +13.9 4.2 96 70 04 rich +15.8 75.1 +13.7 -0.7 250.00 3.8
5889 +13.5 4.2 97 70 00 rich +15.6 78.4 +13.8 -0.7 250.00 3.8
6071 +14.1 4.2 95 80 00 rich +16.4 79.6 +14.0 -0.5 250.00 3.9
6207 +14.3 4.2 95 80 00 rich +17.2 80.7 +22.0 -0.6 250.00 3.9
6207 +14.9 4.3 96 80 00 rich +17.9 80.7 +22.0 -0.5 250.00 3.9
6218 +15.1 4.2 96 80 00 rich +20.6 82.1 +22.0 -0.6 250.00 3.8
6313 +14.9 4.3 96 80 00 rich +20.5 81.3 +22.0 -0.6 250.00 3.8
6600 +14.7 4.2 97 80 00 rich +21.6 84.1 +22.4 -0.6 250.00 3.9
6693 +14.3 4.3 95 70 00 rich +20.9 85.8 +22.6 -0.7 250.00 3.9
6802 +14.1 4.3 96 70 00 rich +21.4 84.4 +22.8 -0.6 250.00 4.0
6497 +13.7 4.3 95 70 01 rich +21.8 83.6 +14.8 -0.6 250.00 3.9
6816 +13.5 4.3 95 70 00 rich +22.0 87.8 +14.8 -0.7 250.00 4.0
6693 +13.5 4.2 34 70 00 rich +39.4 21.9 +20.6 -0.7 250.00 2.2
6485 +8.0 1.9 0 00 00 rich +11.1 8.7 ECU. -1.0 ECU. 1.9

Thanks again for the opinions and advice.
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:30 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zola
Opinions differ on this, but I do not use the ABC and would not use it unless I couldn't make my target boost without it. My boost gain is set to 45 currently, which for me yields good spool and no spiking. Still, I would expect to see you hitting peak boost at least 1500 RPMs earlier than you are. You could also stand to gain quite a bit by advancing timing in the lower load sites...look at the lines where you are running 17 degrees and the ECU is thinking it would run 30. The lower load sites (sub 8 psi or so) could also be leaned out quite a bit--so you aren't richening up from stoich so quickly--and I think you would find it to be a nice improvement. Search around and download mick_the_ginge's Tuning Guide for some good info.

For best tuning results have a WBO2 and an EGT gauge at the ready.
I'll be adjusting the timing in the lower load sites this afternoon during my lunch break, thanks....will be looking the Tuning Guide, thanks.....I do have EGT guage and am contemplating one of the available WBO2 units such as the LM1 or the TXS Tuner.
Why do you eliminate the ABC? I thought it the controller of boost? How else would I set my boost?...simply the boost values in the map from the UTEC? Sorry, but I'm not following. Feel free to school me good.
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:30 PM   #12
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Code:
6693 +14.3 4.3 95 70 00 rich +20.9 85.8 +22.6 -0.7 250.00 3.9
6802 +14.1 4.3 96 70 00 rich +21.4 84.4 +22.8 -0.6 250.00 4.0
6497 +13.7 4.3 95 70 01 rich +21.8 83.6 +14.8 -0.6 250.00 3.9
6816 +13.5 4.3 95 70 00 rich +22.0 87.8 +14.8 -0.7 250.00 4.0
I bet it feels like you are hitting a wall when the UTEC pulls timing like that. The default in the parameters is to retard 2 degrees at a time upon seeing knock...many people including myself use 0.5 degrees instead. Don't change the value unless you are comfortable doing so and understand how it changes things. However ideally you'll fix things so you won't be knocking at all.

My boost tuning is done with the values in the boost map. It takes a little experimentation to find which value will yield the amount of boost you want, so change it in smallish increments (20 or so) until you get in the ballpark. My understanding of the ABC is that it is there to bleed off air before the factory boost control solenoid sees it. Using some combination of changing boost map values and opening the ABC a turn or two will get you to your target boost. Many people run a progressive boost map, meaning the highest closed loop boost values in the 90% and 100% columns, then slightly smaller values in each column as you step down to 80% TPS, 70%, 60%, etc.
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:42 PM   #13
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There are two ways to try and solve your knock issue. Add fuel, or reduce timing. I would not do the first since you do not know if that would help, or hurt the situation further since no wide ban.

I would reduce timing. Try reducing timing by 1 to 1.5 degrees in the areas of the map that you are having knock.
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Old 06-22-2005, 04:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrex03
There are two ways to try and solve your knock issue. Add fuel, or reduce timing. I would not do the first since you do not know if that would help, or hurt the situation further since no wide ban.

I would reduce timing. Try reducing timing by 1 to 1.5 degrees in the areas of the map that you are having knock.
I would do the first(add fuel). Even if ya don't know what the a/f ratio is(and it's not the best idea to adjust fueling without knowing where you're at), you're running a basemap with a turbo that isn't ment for it. For all you know, you're running pretty lean. I'd add .4 to every value in the 70-100% load columns to see if that fixes the problem. I mean, if you're running lean, reducing timing might help, but it will probably raise your egt's. Adding that little amount of fuel shouldn't really hurt anything....... As always, this is just my opinion and I'm no expert.

peace
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Old 06-23-2005, 09:25 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrex03
There are two ways to try and solve your knock issue. Add fuel, or reduce timing. I would not do the first since you do not know if that would help, or hurt the situation further since no wide ban.

I would reduce timing. Try reducing timing by 1 to 1.5 degrees in the areas of the map that you are having knock.
Would it not make sense to assume that I'm moving substantially more air than the map is anticipating? I'm running an upgraded VF-22 on a map specified for a VF-34. No wonder I'm having issues, eh?

Another question.....when you specify "reducing timing"......this means to retard timing?......moving the ignition point closer to TDC?
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Old 06-23-2005, 09:29 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
I would do the first(add fuel). Even if ya don't know what the a/f ratio is(and it's not the best idea to adjust fueling without knowing where you're at), you're running a basemap with a turbo that isn't ment for it. For all you know, you're running pretty lean. I'd add .4 to every value in the 70-100% load columns to see if that fixes the problem. I mean, if you're running lean, reducing timing might help, but it will probably raise your egt's. Adding that little amount of fuel shouldn't really hurt anything....... As always, this is just my opinion and I'm no expert.

peace

yeah, I'd tend to think I'm running lean if anything....assuming that the turbo is moving substantially more air than the map is designed for, especially once it gets spooled up well, i.e.; above 4500rpm.
Add 0.4 to every column from 70% to 100%.......just for clarity...if there are negative figures....adding 0.4 would bring the numbers closer to a positive number.......sorry, don't mean to be a dork about it. Just trying to make sure I understand you corectly. for example if the figure was -0.8, after adding 0.4, I arrive at -0.4.....yes?

Thanks again for the advice and opinions....and I understand that you're not an expert. If you were I'd be having to pay for this!
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Old 06-23-2005, 09:34 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zola
Code:
6693 +14.3 4.3 95 70 00 rich +20.9 85.8 +22.6 -0.7 250.00 3.9
6802 +14.1 4.3 96 70 00 rich +21.4 84.4 +22.8 -0.6 250.00 4.0
6497 +13.7 4.3 95 70 01 rich +21.8 83.6 +14.8 -0.6 250.00 3.9
6816 +13.5 4.3 95 70 00 rich +22.0 87.8 +14.8 -0.7 250.00 4.0
I bet it feels like you are hitting a wall when the UTEC pulls timing like that. The default in the parameters is to retard 2 degrees at a time upon seeing knock...many people including myself use 0.5 degrees instead. Don't change the value unless you are comfortable doing so and understand how it changes things. However ideally you'll fix things so you won't be knocking at all.

My boost tuning is done with the values in the boost map. It takes a little experimentation to find which value will yield the amount of boost you want, so change it in smallish increments (20 or so) until you get in the ballpark. My understanding of the ABC is that it is there to bleed off air before the factory boost control solenoid sees it. Using some combination of changing boost map values and opening the ABC a turn or two will get you to your target boost. Many people run a progressive boost map, meaning the highest closed loop boost values in the 90% and 100% columns, then slightly smaller values in each column as you step down to 80% TPS, 70%, 60%, etc.
It definately gets my attention. The first time I got a couple big knock events I was like, "Oh hell, now I've fubar'd it!"

On that progressive boost map.....that would mean that you don't get as much boost under lower loads......isn't it more difficult to achieve full boost is first or second gear? Or is that the point?....less likelihood to break gears?

Thanks again
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Old 06-23-2005, 03:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadTrip
yeah, I'd tend to think I'm running lean if anything....assuming that the turbo is moving substantially more air than the map is designed for, especially once it gets spooled up well, i.e.; above 4500rpm.
Add 0.4 to every column from 70% to 100%.......just for clarity...if there are negative figures....adding 0.4 would bring the numbers closer to a positive number.......sorry, don't mean to be a dork about it. Just trying to make sure I understand you corectly. for example if the figure was -0.8, after adding 0.4, I arrive at -0.4.....yes?

Thanks again for the advice and opinions....and I understand that you're not an expert. If you were I'd be having to pay for this!
Yes, and I'm not saying that retarding timing a bit wouldn't help. I'd just add some fuel first and see what happens.

peace
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Old 06-23-2005, 03:53 PM   #19
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blah map review - go cobb eh?
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Old 06-23-2005, 03:54 PM   #20
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What an outstanding contribution to this thread.
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Old 06-24-2005, 11:36 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSQuiv
blah map review - go cobb eh?
While I do think Cobb has a good product for a specific niche of this market, I like the flexibility of the UTEC better. For example....with my upgraded VF-22......what map would I use if I was on a Cobb AP?
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