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Old 05-06-2005, 05:10 PM   #1
DaWorstPlaya
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Exclamation Vishnu claims better than Cobb tuning ..

I found this interesting little read on evolutionm.net ....

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...hreadid=137464

Apparantly, Shiv claims the accessport is hardly better than the stock ECU!
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Old 05-06-2005, 05:36 PM   #2
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Oh noez.. . . . . .
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Old 05-06-2005, 05:43 PM   #3
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*cough* marketing ploy *cough*
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Old 05-06-2005, 05:43 PM   #4
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Seeing how I'm a AccessPort Protuner beta tester, a UTEC tuner/tester, and have very good knowledge of Ecutek's Flash2k2 product, I can clearly say without a doubt that's about the most crap statement I've ever heard come out of Mr. Pathak's mouth.

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Old 05-06-2005, 06:03 PM   #5
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I have to agree on RiftsWRX too. Think about why there are no such dyno plots before (showing Cobb AP acts worse than Stock ECU), and suddenly these plots came out, but from Cobb's competitors instead of end-users like us?!?!
Without explaining more in detail, this is a very cheap and poor business trick, period.

P.S. Ohh... would that be Shiv using Economic map but he thought he was using the others?
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Old 05-06-2005, 06:40 PM   #6
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Probably because the owners say that they (Vishnu) cant post the results. And seeing that this is my car, I said, hell yeah, post it up. Cause I was pissed as hell that the stock ECU made about the same HP. Granted the AP did make more power above 6000rpms and was smoother & pulled harder. I ran the stage 2 for 30,000+ miles and thought it was great.....until the XEDE was installed. 2 other individuals drove the car, one of which is on evom.net (JP98SS)...feel free to PM him for his inpressions and they commented that its a totally different car. When I ran the stg 2 map then switched to the stock "real time map" the car was a dog. So, I figured it really did make power. However, upon my install of the XEDE, when I had to uninstall the AP, I ran the stock ECU for 1-2 weeks and the car felt A LOT stronger than COBBs "stock realtime map."

DCwrx2 & RiftsWRX - I will gladly do another dyno at another 3rd parties Dyno if you would cover the dyno fee (~$80). PM and I'll give you my email address so you can paypal me. I have previously ran my COBB stage 2 on a local dynojet, you can find the graphs on these forums. Like I said earlier, I will glady run the car again on the dyno, NOT VISHNUS, with the XEDE and then the stock ECU. I was personally the one that flashed the Sage 2 cali ver 1.15 map (because Im in California). I sat there and watched the 5 pulls and saw the AceessPort's whp increase with every pull, with the exception of the last one.

And about the statements made by Shiv, I'll have to go back and re-read them to see if hes telling the truth.

Im not here to hate on any companies game....I just wanted the reults for my own eyes and for others to see. Check my other posts with the dyno charts....I "was" happy with them at one point.
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Old 05-06-2005, 06:48 PM   #7
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edit -too slow
any one notice 30+whp (190ish) from a turbo back (stock ecu tune)??
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Old 05-06-2005, 06:49 PM   #8
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Um, isn't the accessport really still just programming the stock ecu. Ok there's some whiz bang features like realtime tuning, but really it isn't much better than using ecutek because you're still programming the same maps. Accessport is more like a better map delivery mechanism for the stock ecu, so while I don't know what context Shiv is talking about, are you going to make more power with ProTuner than Ecutek. I doubt it. What is better?
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Old 05-06-2005, 09:20 PM   #9
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Marketing ploy? Might I suggest you reconduct the testing on a 3rd party dyno. The further away from me the better. Sometimes you guys are too much.

FWIW, Drew dyno'd his car at Tuning Technologies several weeks ago with the AP. Those numbers correlate with the numbers he got on my dyno the other day. I guess it must be a conspiracy. Just like those Foresters I tested and then retuned several months ago

shiv

Last edited by Vishnu Performance; 05-06-2005 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 05-06-2005, 10:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vishnu Performance
Marketing ploy? Might I suggest you reconduct the testing on a 3rd party dyno.
No, you may not. But, you may note that your results defy common sense and basic logic.

Sorry my man, that is just too hard to believe in my opinion.

So, it leads me to one of a couple ideas:

First, you jurry-rigged the results as a marketing ploy

Second, you set something up wrong and got bad numbers because you can't work your equipment (not likely because you own a tune shop)

Furthermore, it all comes down to this: you and Cobb are competing tuning shops. Cobb is very well established and it would not serve them to put out an inferior product, thereby taking away some of their marketshare in Subaru tuning. So why would they? But for you to try and refute their claims to their product would surely benefit you....

So, as you can see, you are going to have to surmount many things going against you for me (and I think a great many other people on here, but I could be wrong) to believe you.

I'm not saying you're a liar, but I don't believe that your data is correct. Sorry man.

Aaron

PS - You want me to verify the dyno results 3rd party and switch to Xede from my AP? You front the money, its your claims, back them up.

Last edited by shinsain; 05-06-2005 at 10:27 PM. Reason: Re-read Shivs post on evom
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinsain
No, you may not. But, you may note that your results defy common sense and basic logic.

Sorry my man, that is just too hard to believe in my opinion.

So, it leads me to one of a couple ideas:

First, you jurry-rigged the results as a marketing ploy

Second, you set something up wrong and got bad numbers because you can't work your equipment (not likely because you own a tune shop)

Furthermore, it all comes down to this: you and Cobb are competing tuning shops. Cobb is very well established and it would not serve them to put out an inferior product, thereby taking away some of their marketshare in Subaru tuning. So why would they? But for you to try and refute their claims to their product would surely benefit you....

So, as you can see, you are going to have to surmount many things going against you for me (and I think a great many other people on here, but I could be wrong) to believe you.

I'm not saying you're a liar, but I don't believe that your data is correct. Sorry man.

Aaron

PS - You want me to verify the dyno results 3rd party and switch to Xede from my AP? You front the money, its your claims, back them up.
You saying that you are not calling me a liar but you still accuse me of "jury-rigging" the results.

Shiv
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:52 PM   #12
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I think many people don't realize that our Cali gas sucks, and given altitude differences, it shouldn't be surprising that the map sucks. Are they making these maps in cali, i don't think so. I do know that people running stage 2 stis make good hp and great torque, but they sometimes det. Do you think cobb can do a better job making a map for us here in Cali or a local tuner. It just makes a good case for going with the local tuner, irrespective of the em platform.
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:52 PM   #13
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popcorn anyone?
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:58 PM   #14
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Mnavarro I think you are right. The maps are not made in Cali and thats why they are not optimum. They certainly are not great out here in Arizona on our 91. I find results like Shivs as well. Except for one thing. They seen to run real, real lean out here.

Clark
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Old 05-07-2005, 12:10 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingpin
Mnavarro I think you are right. The maps are not made in Cali and thats why they are not optimum. They certainly are not great out here in Arizona on our 91. I find results like Shivs as well. Except for one thing. They seen to run real, real lean out here.

Clark
DING DING DING.

Agreed.

But to say it's no better then the stock ecu is a little disparaging, since by that standard, a TurboXS base map will be in the same boat since it wasn't actually developed THERE.

In pure professional fairness, a qualifier at the LEAST is appropriate to a statement like that.

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Old 05-07-2005, 12:56 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX
But to say it's no better then the stock ecu is a little disparaging...

...In pure professional fairness, a qualifier at the LEAST is appropriate to a statement like that.
The only person who said that was the starter of this thread. Shiv commented factually (at least based on the dyno plots provided) saying the stock ecu made more low-end power and had a higher peak number, while the AP made more power past 6k rpm (due to higher boost levels).
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Old 05-07-2005, 03:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX
DING DING DING.

Agreed.

But to say it's no better then the stock ecu is a little disparaging, since by that standard, a TurboXS base map will be in the same boat since it wasn't actually developed THERE.

In pure professional fairness, a qualifier at the LEAST is appropriate to a statement like that.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com

Who said that there is no better option than the stock ECU? My day/tuning schedule would be a whole lot more relaxing if this was true.

shiv
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Old 05-07-2005, 03:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vishnu Performance
You saying that you are not calling me a liar but you still accuse me of "jury-rigging" the results.

Shiv
I never said that. I said it is one of two different possibilities. Read into it at your own risk.

Not to mention you testing the Cali map, like has been brought up, that's undoubtedly a horrible power maker. Or the fact that you say "The Cobb ECU made more power above 6000rpm. But it also ran 4 more psi of boost at high rpm." which is true, but makes it sound like the Cobb map used more boost but still wasn't as good as the stock ECU. When in fact, it didn't "run more" psi at high rpm, it held the stock level of boost longer at high rpm denoting a much better tune than the original stock map. Also making it look like the tune with the Xede was much better....well of course!! You sat there, tuned the car in a much more aggressive manor and then compared it to the worst [read: safest] map Cobb produces! Come on man!!!

Manipulating data to get your desired end result (i.e. making it look like Cobb's AP isn't any better than the stock ECU...)??? Maybe its just me, but that to me seems like a marketing ploy.
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Old 05-07-2005, 04:25 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinsain
I never said that. I said it is one of two different possibilities. Read into it at your own risk.

Not to mention you testing the Cali map, like has been brought up, that's undoubtedly a horrible power maker. Or the fact that you say "The Cobb ECU made more power above 6000rpm. But it also ran 4 more psi of boost at high rpm." which is true, but makes it sound like the Cobb map used more boost but still wasn't as good as the stock ECU. When in fact, it didn't "run more" psi at high rpm, it held the stock level of boost longer at high rpm denoting a much better tune than the original stock map. Also making it look like the tune with the Xede was much better....well of course!! You sat there, tuned the car in a much more aggressive manor and then compared it to the worst [read: safest] map Cobb produces! Come on man!!!

Manipulating data to get your desired end result (i.e. making it look like Cobb's AP isn't any better than the stock ECU...)??? Maybe its just me, but that to me seems like a marketing ploy.
The arguments you are making for a map that makes less power than stock is absurd. 91 octane or not, it was down 25-30whp from a good tune (either by a reflash, XEDE, etc,.). Heck, it was a few hp down from a stock tune. And it also pinged more, eventually dropping it's IAM to 14 after its 3rd run. If you want to argue that the "safest" map should rightfully do this, while make less power than the stock ECU and still be considered a cogent "upgrade", then go head. It's your party. Keep drinking the Kool Aid.

BTW, these results aren't atypical.

Shiv

PS. My statement "But it also ran 4 more psi of boost at high rpm" stands true to anyone who has a basic grasp of English. Especially considering that I even posted the boost graph comparing the two tunes. If you can't properly interpret that statement with the help of that clear graphical presentation, I'm sorry.

Last edited by Vishnu Performance; 05-07-2005 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 05-07-2005, 07:14 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drews_WRX
Probably because the owners say that they (Vishnu) cant post the results. And seeing that this is my car, I said, hell yeah, post it up. Cause I was pissed as hell that the stock ECU made about the same HP. Granted the AP did make more power above 6000rpms and was smoother & pulled harder. I ran the stage 2 for 30,000+ miles and thought it was great.....until the XEDE was installed. 2 other individuals drove the car, one of which is on evom.net (JP98SS)...feel free to PM him for his inpressions and they commented that its a totally different car. When I ran the stg 2 map then switched to the stock "real time map" the car was a dog. So, I figured it really did make power. However, upon my install of the XEDE, when I had to uninstall the AP, I ran the stock ECU for 1-2 weeks and the car felt A LOT stronger than COBBs "stock realtime map."

DCwrx2 & RiftsWRX - I will gladly do another dyno at another 3rd parties Dyno if you would cover the dyno fee (~$80). PM and I'll give you my email address so you can paypal me. I have previously ran my COBB stage 2 on a local dynojet, you can find the graphs on these forums. Like I said earlier, I will glady run the car again on the dyno, NOT VISHNUS, with the XEDE and then the stock ECU. I was personally the one that flashed the Sage 2 cali ver 1.15 map (because Im in California). I sat there and watched the 5 pulls and saw the AceessPort's whp increase with every pull, with the exception of the last one.

And about the statements made by Shiv, I'll have to go back and re-read them to see if hes telling the truth.

Im not here to hate on any companies game....I just wanted the reults for my own eyes and for others to see. Check my other posts with the dyno charts....I "was" happy with them at one point.

Hey Drew at least you won't have a hard time selling you AP since everybody seems to be on Cobbs nuts

I am the other person that drove drews car when he got back.. It was a totally different car and I'm sure JP98ss will say the same. I also watched him run 13.9 @97 with no cats, borla cat back and the AP .. He ran 13.8 @98 with turbo back and STOCK ecu a year ago. I think it is safe to say the AP wasn't helping. We'll see what it does with this setup on the 14th, hey drew maybe now you can keep up with my pile of crap

Also I was at TT when Shiv was dynotuning And everybody that I saw get tuned was VERY happy (about 6evos and 2or3 wrxs). I don't think that he was trying to say look how much better I am than Cobb, He was just posting the results like DREW asked him to!

But I guess he shouldn't post results when his tune makes more power.. What were you thinking Shiv

Now I see why you are tuning mostly Evos now.
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Old 05-07-2005, 07:26 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
edit -too slow
any one notice 30+whp (190ish) from a turbo back (stock ecu tune)??
He has a Up pipe also with no cats.
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Old 05-07-2005, 09:37 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vishnu Performance
Who said that there is no better option than the stock ECU? My day/tuning schedule would be a whole lot more relaxing if this was true.

shiv
Please Shiv. You know damn well where I'm going with this.

I know how to play this game just as well as you do, and when you leave data like that out there not qualifying for people, playing on their ignorance that someone wasn't able to produce the map necessary due to inexperiance with the fuel in question; that snowballs into exactly what the subsequent posts in that thread did.

Look onto thine own eyes master tuner. I clearly remember the day where some of your own vishnu unichip customers ran quite poor at the first East coast shootout, and Mark let them borrow a UTEC running their off the shelf base map and blew your times away by anywhere from .2 to .5 seconds.

But oh well, this just further edifies my position.

Don't like it, bring it. I'm bored today.

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Old 05-07-2005, 09:46 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89lx5.0
I also watched him run 13.9 @97 with no cats, borla cat back and the AP .. He ran 13.8 @98 with turbo back and STOCK ecu a year ago. I think it is safe to say the AP wasn't helping.
So when he ran a 13.8, was it 50 degrees? And when he ran a 13.9, was it 90? There's too many variables to compare that with. Maybe if he ran with the stock ecu first, and then flashed the AP and ran. But even then there'd be a heatsoak disadvantage with the AP. Not tryin' to be a punk, but you do see my point?



Mika
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Old 05-07-2005, 10:13 AM   #24
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i am no tuner but just an end user, and there is no way that when i went to stage 2 i was imagining what i felt. it's not possible. i've read everything posted so far and just seems too bias.

<--- smiles as he thinks of the protuner.
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Old 05-07-2005, 10:52 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fat angel
i am no tuner but just an end user, and there is no way that when i went to stage 2 i was imagining what i felt. it's not possible. i've read everything posted so far and just seems too bias.

<--- smiles as he thinks of the protuner.
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