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Old 05-15-2005, 11:01 PM   #1
Wrinkleboi
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Default Can the UTEC (or any other piggyback) really advance timing? My tuner says no...

Hey guys,
I am taking my car to be tyned at Precision Dyno Tuning this coming friday at a Dyno Day they are having. Their tuner has had a ton of success tuning Evos and after talking to him I feel that he really knows his stuff.
However, he said some things during our conversation that I had never heard before, and I wanted to see if anyone here had anything to say about it.
He told me that when you are dealing with a piggyback system that there is no way to intercept the timing signal before it happens, and as a result the UTEC cannot advance timing beyond the stock ECU's threshold. He said it could pull timing in certain areas, but not advance it. Something about it not being physically or mechanically possible.
I may have misunderstood some of what he was saying, and he also told me that he would be happy to explain it to me in person and that is the only way he would really be able to. I have just never heard this so I'm really not sure what to think about it, because I do believe he knows his tuning.
He also said he doesnt like piggybacks becuase the stock ECU will relearn around it and 'detune' the car over time. I didnt think that was true either.
Anyways, this has me wondering if the UTEC really is such a great solution. With all of this said, he admittedly said he has only tuned one WRX with a UTEC and he said he was absolutely able to make some gains on it. The tuning is quite cheap so I am willing to let him have a go at mine, but I'm just not sure what to expect after my convo with him.
Looking to hear some opinions from those who know more about it than I do. Thanks in advance,
Bryan
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Old 05-16-2005, 12:37 AM   #2
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Short answer: Find another tuner.

Long answer: The UTEC generates its own timing signals. It is completely aware of the crank angle and fires the coils directly... NOT an offset of the stock ECU's signal. Also, the UTEC also fires the injectors directly.. when using OLF, the injector signals are not an offset of the stock ECU's fueling. Basically, once you pass the TPS crossover, the UTEC runs the show.

It sounds like you both have lots of reading to do.
http://www.wrxhackers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2498
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Old 05-16-2005, 01:31 AM   #3
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Find another tuner.
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Old 05-16-2005, 01:51 AM   #4
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This guy you are ;bringing it to has no idea what a utec can do, so I wouldn't let him within fifty feet of your car.
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Old 05-16-2005, 07:27 AM   #5
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do a public service and post this tooner's name
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Old 05-16-2005, 07:55 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich728
do a public service and post this tooner's name
X2

TMS
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Old 05-16-2005, 08:17 AM   #7
happasaiyan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x99percent
Short answer: Find another tuner.

Long answer: The UTEC generates its own timing signals. It is completely aware of the crank angle and fires the coils directly... NOT an offset of the stock ECU's signal. Also, the UTEC also fires the injectors directly.. when using OLF, the injector signals are not an offset of the stock ECU's fueling. Basically, once you pass the TPS crossover, the UTEC runs the show.

It sounds like you both have lots of reading to do.
http://www.wrxhackers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2498
^ exactly what i was going to write.
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Old 05-16-2005, 08:30 AM   #8
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there are some 'pro' (and i use that one lightly) tuners out there who HATE the UTEC mostly becasue they don't understand it. take everyone's advise and DON'T LET HIM TOUCH YOUR CAR. i had a very bad time when i left someone tune my car...

I should have knowen something was up when he said that the UTECs "hit a brick wall and will never make more than 290WHP"

FYI the ecu can't 'learn' the UTEC....it doesn't even know its there.
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Old 05-16-2005, 08:38 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefyib123
FYI the ecu can't 'learn' the UTEC....it doesn't even know its there.
yep. the stock ecu is just doing its thing...and maybe wondering why its MAF voltages are so low...but then just shrugs it off.

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Old 05-16-2005, 09:16 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickyh
This guy you are ;bringing it to has no idea what a utec can do, so I wouldn't let him within fifty feet of your car.
Yep last time I brought my car to a tuner like that I ended up getting a new shortblock.
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Old 05-16-2005, 10:15 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefyib123
I should have knowen something was up when he said that the UTECs "hit a brick wall and will never make more than 290WHP"
We've had UTEC cars run low 10s second 1/4 mile passes so it's pretty amazing what you can do with only 290whp.

Find a real tuner and dump this Tooner.

-Nathan
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Old 05-16-2005, 10:23 AM   #12
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in his defense he spends a lot of his time tuning Evos and has had a ton of success with it. everyone comes back raving about him.
i think that he just isnt familliar with the UTEC and its capabilities. i just sent him an email with a link to this thread because i thought he would find it interesting and informative. i'm not hiding who he is, its in the first post at the top... and its not an issue of whether he can tune well or not because i know he can.
bryan
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Old 05-16-2005, 10:57 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrinkleboi
in his defense he spends a lot of his time tuning Evos and has had a ton of success with it. everyone comes back raving about him.
i think that he just isnt familliar with the UTEC and its capabilities. i just sent him an email with a link to this thread because i thought he would find it interesting and informative. i'm not hiding who he is, its in the first post at the top... and its not an issue of whether he can tune well or not because i know he can.
bryan
problem-

evo != wrx
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:01 AM   #14
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Simple piggybacks actually cannot advance timing, though the UTEC is not strictly a piggyback.

Some cars DO learn around piggyback fueling changes, mainly by watching the AFR's and trying to compensate back to what they think is the expected ratios. This was a big hoopla about the RS-T's using S-AFC's back in the day. Supposedly 98-99 could do it fine being MAF-based, but for some reason the MAP based cars would start to learn around the S-AFC settings. I've never actually seen one do it, but I have seen these cars do some strange damn things.

Edit: I would go with a different tuned due to lack of experience, though. Always always go to a tuner that knows your engine management... a definite rule to live by.
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:39 AM   #15
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He's going to see this and be none too pleased at everyone's assessment of his abilities. Maybe you should direct him to a different UTEC thread
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:43 AM   #16
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find another tuner. Trust me on this one, your feeling that he really knows what he is talking about, is wrong.
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:44 AM   #17
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OOOO I just realized, I go to PA all the time to see my parnets.

I am going to take my car in to him and have him dyno it. Then laugh and ask how my UTEC is making over 290whp
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:48 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrinkleboi
in his defense he spends a lot of his time tuning Evos and has had a ton of success with it. everyone comes back raving about him.
There are a ton of ppl that rave about Vivid Racing as a vendor too. That doesnt change the fact that they suck and rip off a LOT of ppl. He may be great with EVOs, but he obviously is useless with a WRX and a utec.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrinkleboi
i'm not hiding who he is, its in the first post at the top... and its not an issue of whether he can tune well or not because i know he can.
bryan

He obviously cant tune well when it comes to the UTEC. He cant get WRX's over 290whp, and doesnt even understand how the thing works. How could you POSSIBLY think he would be the best choice to tune your car with an engine management system that he has NO IDEA how it works???
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:50 AM   #19
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BTW, you do realize that you could be AT TURBOXS having Nathan or Jermaine tune your car in 4 hours right? WHo do you think will give you the most power/safest tune? Someone who has no idea how your em works, or the people that came up with it?
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Old 05-16-2005, 12:14 PM   #20
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Here's a quote from the tuner about the evo

Originally Posted by Precision Dyno
The Evo will spike to 33psi with the wastegate disconnected.
Depending on the efficiency of your cooling system (air) the little stock turbo will fade to about 25. We have run this on pump gas all day long here with 93 octane. BUT the car has been tuned with an AEM EMS. The stock internals handle quite a bit of power. Much more than 20.5 psi from the stock turbo and safely now with 60,000 miles and counting.

Do you really want this guy to tune your car???

Last edited by CMJ; 05-16-2005 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 05-16-2005, 12:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMJ
Here's a quote from the tuner about the evo

Originally Posted by Precision Dyno
The Evo will spike to 33psi with the wastegate disconnected.
Depending on the efficiency of your cooling system (air) the little stock turbo will fade to about 25. We have run this on pump gas all day long here with 93 octane. BUT the car has been tuned with an AEM EMS. The stock internals handle quite a bit of power. Much more than 20.5 psi from the stock turbo and safely now with 60,000 miles and counting.
IMO If someone is disconecting the WG you don't want them tooning your car.

TMS
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Old 05-16-2005, 01:29 PM   #22
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Just to add to what the others said. I have an entirely stock engine/exhaust. I also have a UTEC.

Now, I also race in STX, where I can't modify the boost at all. So, all I can place with, basically, is timing (fuel doesn't do much here). According to this tuner, my having a UTEC would be worthless, because I can't add timing. However, my car is making more HP than stock, just due to increased timing. According to your tuner, this isn't possible, but I have the 4WD dyno and butt dyno results to prove it.

Your tuner should stick to EVO's, and you should find another tuner.
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Old 05-16-2005, 02:30 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMJ
Here's a quote from the tuner about the evo

Originally Posted by Precision Dyno
The Evo will spike to 33psi with the wastegate disconnected.
Depending on the efficiency of your cooling system (air) the little stock turbo will fade to about 25. We have run this on pump gas all day long here with 93 octane. BUT the car has been tuned with an AEM EMS. The stock internals handle quite a bit of power. Much more than 20.5 psi from the stock turbo and safely now with 60,000 miles and counting.

Do you really want this guy to tune your car???
Does the term IC and Turbine efficiency mean anything?

I've done stuff like that in a more controlled test type environment, but NEVER for a street car, much less one that is passed as "ok".



Damn...

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 05-17-2005, 10:39 AM   #24
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:rofl: @ pulling the WG signal line..

:eek3:
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Old 02-08-2006, 02:28 PM   #25
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Dont no But Nick at precision Dyno Tuning can had my timing set at 32 Deg. at 6000rps with knock off then blew my motor
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